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Sword Art Online (TV).


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Cam0



Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 4884
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:15 am Reply with quote
That's the thing. So you get to decide who is the master and who is the amateur? Would you compare Inception and The Expendables like this as well? I know that's a very exaggerated example.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:44 am Reply with quote
^
First, we're talking about the same sub-genre here, not completely different genres like your example.

Second, as I mentioned before even a populist work has to do basic things right. Internal consistency, lack of plot holes and arse-pulls, and caring about the characters (or at least wanting them to succeed) are the most basic of the basics. You expect those no matter what the genre is or whom the show is targeted to.

Thirdly, I have watched all of Sword Art Online and all the Log Horizon episodes thus far aired, and you haven't. It is obvious that while the latter show will never be as popular or as profitable as the former, in terms of writing and storytelling quality, and the strength of the characters, LH blows SAO of the water.
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Cam0



Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 4884
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:12 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
^
It's not fair to compare the two just like it isn't fair to put a chess amateur against a grandmaster. But comparisons of skill can still be made if one wants to. Fairness only dictates what ought to be done, not what can actually be done.


What you said here was as if it's obvious that LH is a better show than SAO. I'm talking about overall here. Before you were only making points that LH was stronger in some areas like writing and characters.
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maxlance



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 50
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:04 am Reply with quote
What I'd like to see as a "ultimate" VR game series is one that does a kind of "Quantum Leap" take where each episode takes place in a different popular anime series where the heroes must resolve whose particular problem or situation differently from that anime's characters in order to log off/escape from. Hope I'm saying this the right way! Very Happy

Again, I'm looking for any tips on a site that's dedicated just to VR Game discussion and speculation. ANN does a great great job hosting these but I'd like a site that will draw across the web spectrum.

Peace & Stay Safe!
Kirito x Leafa user
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:24 am Reply with quote
Cam0 wrote:


What you said here was as if it's obvious that LH is a better show than SAO. I'm talking about overall here. Before you were only making points that LH was stronger in some areas like writing and characters.


There's really no question about it as far as I'm concerned. Log Horizon is a far superior anime than SAO in pretty much every respect. The only thing I might say is really close at this point is environment, since SAO does have some pretty awesome visual appeal. However, Log Horizon has even upped its game in that category as well after the admittedly poor first episode.

And Theron, you REALLY should be watching Log Horizon. I had the exact same reaction as you on the first episode. It looked like a train wreck. But it is hard for me to ignore a MMORPG show, so I decided to watch a bit more and episode by episode, Log Horizon just got more and more beautiful. The intelligence of the show is just off the charts. It is so smart with its characters. There is virtually no stupid pandering, just fantastic plot developments/twists and excellent character development. Even the characters you would normally expect to be just worthless side characters get developed amazingly. Also, they have one character in the show that you would totally expect to be loli bait. She even has a big brother who is stuck in the MMORPG world with her, but instead of pandering with her, they make her into this amazingly smart character. I was dumbfounded by that. Dtm is right. You are missing out big time by not watching Log Horizon at this point.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18137
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:02 am Reply with quote
So at what point does LH start showing this supposedly wonderful degree of intelligence? Carl's review of the first six episodes mentions about it having some potential in that direction but does not indicate any significant achievement to that point, and a B- grade is hardly a stellar endorsement. His comments that the artistry doesn't seem to have significantly improved through its first six episodes also seem at odds with your claim about it improving, CK. (Or does that also happen later?) I also find it concerning that my biggest issues with the first episode sound like an ongoing problem through the first six.

The series has been pitched hard enough that I will eventually watch more, as I have seen enough cases where a show recovers from a mediocre start to turn into something special. However, usually in those cases there's at least a spark of potential in the first episode, and I didn't see that in LH's case.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:48 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
So at what point does LH start showing this supposedly wonderful degree of intelligence?


As I mentioned before, Log Horizon starts getting really good at the end of episode six. That's when a major character gets out of funk and makes an important decision, causing the story shifts up a couple of gears. The show just gets better from there on out. In fact, even after all this time I and other fans are still being wowed by the quality of recent episodes.

Of course, that's not to say that the first six episodes are somehow bad; they're decent enough and plenty watchable (even if the gag of Akatsuki hitting Naotsugu is overused).

Key wrote:
Carl's review of the first six episodes mentions about it having some potential in that direction but does not indicate any significant achievement to that point, and a B- grade is hardly a stellar endorsement.


Unfortunate that he only reviewed the first six episodes instead of the first twelve or thirteen.

I was hoping that he'd do another review for the next chunk of episodes but that doesn't seemed to have happened.

Key wrote:
However, usually in those cases there's at least a spark of potential in the first episode, and I didn't see that in LH's case.


Says the guy who wasn't impressed by what he saw of the plot in PMMM's first episode.

And no, I'm not implying that LH is comparable in quality to PMMM. LH is good but it's not that good. However, my point is that even if the first episode of a show doesn't blow you away, it doesn't mean later ones will be unable to.
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getchman
Space Cowboy



Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 9117
Location: Bedford, NH
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:11 pm Reply with quote
personally, I thought it picked up right after episode 1. the near impossible odds of a tank spec'd for being a meat shield and a squishy wizard spec'd for support buffsspoiler[ taking out a group of 6-7 well coordinated PKer's], but showing and telling how it can be done told me how smart the show was going to be. Touno has/does play Everquest, and everything players do in game can be done in MMO's, which makes for some very interesting fights, and very possible strategies. I don't believe we have had any ass pulls in this show
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 3498
Location: IN your nightmares
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:06 pm Reply with quote
I'm a bit mixed on the idea that LH is an intellectual show. Going into the show I've always had a strong impression that the target audience was a bit younger than standard evening anime fare. Like this should be something that airs in the morning or late afternoon. And another big piece of evidence about it's age-range demographic is the fact that the song subtitles include furigana characters. A sure indicator of a show targeted to pre-teens. And just the imagery and characterization is very pokemon-ish. Why would they intentionally write so much depth and intrigue into a show that's so obviously targeted towards children? It just doesn't seem like they are aiming for mass appeal. Mass appeal is nice, but it takes a little extra effort to pull off, why not just appeal to kids like lots of anime does and still make buck off the residual appeal of the occasional adult that likes it too?

I'm not buying the intellectuality angle of Log Horizon that others seem to be making it out to be.
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getchman
Space Cowboy



Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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Location: Bedford, NH
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:20 pm Reply with quote
it airs on NHK Educational TV at 5:30 pm, which I believe is a station that has a large youth/child demographic, so a lot of the content in the anime is toned down from what you will find in the Light Novel
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:29 pm Reply with quote
Past wrote:
I'm not buying the intellectuality angle of Log Horizon that others seem to be making it out to be.


How much of Log Horizon have you actually seen? Because I don't see how anyone who has actually watched a decent portion of the show (like, at least two or three episodes) could claim that it is solely or even mostly aimed at little children.
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Key
Moderator


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18137
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:54 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Unfortunate that he only reviewed the first six episodes instead of the first twelve or thirteen.

I was hoping that he'd do another review for the next chunk of episodes but that doesn't seemed to have happened.

I know he's still watching it and was considering a follow-up review at some point, so there's a reasonable chance you could see one at the end of the season.

Quote:
Says the guy who wasn't impressed by what he saw of the plot in PMMM's first episode.

PMMM at least showed visual potential. Besides, after watching the series through a couple of times I'm convinced that the first two episodes are at least partly a deliberate troll job on Urobochi's part. (I point to the dramatic change in closer style in episode 3 as one of the biggest pieces of evidence for that.) Thus it's an exception.

Quote:
And no, I'm not implying that LH is comparable in quality to PMMM. LH is good but it's not that good. However, my point is that even if the first episode of a show doesn't blow you away, it doesn't mean later ones will be unable to.

Granted, and that's why I will give it a chance - eventually.

We're starting to have topic drift, though (and I know I'm guilty of that, too), so let's start pushing this back in a proper direction.
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WhiteHairGirls



Joined: 27 Apr 2011
Posts: 4713
Location: New York City
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:08 pm Reply with quote
If Dtm is praising a show, you know it must be doing something good Smile
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:43 pm Reply with quote
Past wrote:


I'm not buying the intellectuality angle of Log Horizon that others seem to be making it out to be.


You're basing your decision on whether it is intellectual or not based entirely on the visual appeal and what you believe to be the targeted audience. That doesn't make much sense. You should be basing your opinion on how the show is written, how the characters and plot are developed, and the other important story elements, not based on a feeling that it "looks like it's for kids."
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maxlance



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 50
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:05 pm Reply with quote
SAO is more a romance drama while Log Horizon seems more a social allegory of sorts. You do SAO for the heart and LH if you're into cynically determinating what makes civilization. The glaring hate for Leafa, for one, sidetracks appreciating SAO's subtler human than intellectual points.

Peace & Stay Safe
A KxL fan
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