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Can walw6pK4Alo be banned or warned or something?


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Blood-
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:46 am Reply with quote
This idiot continues to introduce manga topics in anime discussion threads without using spoiler tags. Latest example for the Mysterious Girlfriend X thread:

Quote:
Looking forward to next week's episode, and then hopefully a turn into left field to avoid spoiler[the Imai Momoka arc]*. I'd hate for this adaptation to have that terrible story taint it.


* SPOILER TAGS ADDED BY ME

This scanlation jerk has been told time and time again that we anime viewers don't appreciate his constant manga references in anime discussion threads, but hey, when you are a total tool, what does the enjoyment of other posters mean, right?

And of course when he brings up a manga topic, it merely encourage other scanlationers to jump in with their manga-related comments.

I'll repost Zac's recent comment:

Zac wrote:
It sounds to me like we just need a rule about the discussion thread for an anime based on a manga. Only discussion of the manga up to where the anime has gotten will be accepted. Any teasing or hinting at what happens later will not be tolerated, offending posts will be removed, and if people can't follow that then they'll get kicked out for a bit.


I really feel if this ignoranus is made an example of, it will go along way to finally making ANIME discussion threads safe from scanlationers.
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dormcat
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:34 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
(...) safe from scanlationers.

Just how many times do I have to tell you that such comment is very offending to me and other MGX manga OWNERS?
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:50 pm Reply with quote
The vast majority - if not all - of the posters not using spoiler tags and just generally getting on the nerves of those of us who are trying to discuss an ANIME show without some inconsiderate jerk CONSTANTLY making manga references are scanlationers. People like you who are capable of reading manga in its original Japanese are few and far between at ANN and are not the problem here.

Besides which, if you are one of the inconsiderate people I'm talking about, I don't give a shit whether you got your manga information legitimately or not - I only care that you keep your speculation / comments under spoiler tags. However, the fact that the knob I identified in my subject line is also a scanlationer simply adds insult to injury.
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:00 pm Reply with quote
Blood- is right. Regardless of how people read a manga, they should be respectful of the fact that others may not be as up-to-date as they are, and censor the spoilers. Particularly if they are reading farther forward than the average person on these forums.

-t
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The King of Harts



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:26 pm Reply with quote
I'm of the mind that manga shouldn't be discussed in anime discussions period. Don't bother with tag this or tag that - don't have it all. VN, LN, or manga discussion has no place in an anime discussion whether it's an adaptation or not because we all know not everything will be adapted and things will be adapted differently because or episode constraints. So talking about things that were skipped or handled differently/poorly in comparison is irrelevant.

When you discuss an anime weekly you talk about what has happened, how you feel about it, and what you predict will happen based on what the anime has presented you. Discussing things you know will happen or talking about how differently something is presented or talking about how it's in a different order because you imported volumes or read scanlations isn't talking about the anime and that's what the discussion is about. It's not only spoiler-y, I'd argue it's off-topic. I mean, you're talking about something that's not the anime itself in a discussion thread about the anime in the anime section; how is that not off-topic? Sure, it's the source material, but the source material can and should be discussed in the dedicated thread for it, not it's adaptation. We have both a manga section and a novel section, there's no need to try and combine them because you're super cool and read ahead of everyone else going in cold.
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Yttrbio
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:22 pm Reply with quote
I don't agree with defining the scope of anime discussion so narrowly. I find that many people are quite interested in the process by which an anime came to be, and are interested in things like adaptation decisions, which seem very much part of the discussion of an anime. I try to spoiler and label it when I do talk about earlier versions, but there's definitely a discussion to be had about how a manga becomes an anime and how it affects the anime.
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Dessa
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:46 pm Reply with quote
I also disagree with requiring such strict definitions of what's allowed in an anime discussion, and, once again, hold up the Fate/Zero thread, which goes into not only the F/Z anime, but the F/Z novels, the F/sn anime, and the F/sn VN, because different information is given in different ways through the four titles/mediums, and everything that is not in the F/Z anime is spoilered out. Provided people are respectful, there doesn't need to be a rule like that.
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Nosferatu21



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:45 am Reply with quote
If it comes down with allowing things to continue as they have been or making a rule to ban manga discussion, I absolutely vote for a ban on manga discussion. Is it fair to those manga readers who do post with enough common sense to spoiler tag manga discussion and warn of manga spoilers? No, maybe not. But it's also not fair to anybody who isn't familiar with the source material to wade through the increasing number of unspoilered manga talk occurring in the threads for currently airing shows. And if you peak through those threads you notice an increasing number of users who are getting fed up with it.

There are times when manga discussion in an anime thread could be beneficial. If somebody in the thread specifically asks if an event that already happened in the anime was different than what happened in the manga, a spoiler tagged response by a manga reader is fine with me. However, at no point should it be fine to post spoilers from the source material if it has not been covered in the anime. I've also seen a couple of times when somebody with no prior knowledge of the title posts some speculation and is responded to by a manga reader who response is what happened in the manga(I apologize as I don't remember what the titles were as I've only noticed this a few times that I remember). The fun part about speculation is, as the series progresses from that point, you can pick apart what was missed or mistaken, or even have your guesses validated. The fun part about reading exactly what happened in the manga is nothing.

I'll reiterate something I mentioned in the "Request for additional moderator" thread. When you read a manga for the first time, completely unfamiliar with any twists and turns, everything is new for you. You get the experience as the author intended. What we're experiencing in the currently airing show threads is the equivalent of you reading a manga for the first time, unfamiliar with any twists and turns, except now someone whose already read it is standing right behind you saying things like "oh, just wait till 4 pages from now" and "I can't wait for the time skip in the next chapter". Sort of ruins the experience when the surprises are spoiled for you.

The Fate/Zero thread is mediocre example to use in my opinion. I don't post in there but I still lurk often to see what others think of the episodes as the come out. The discussion in there is quite good. As I've already seen F/SN, nothing is being spoiled for me either. But, at this point, aren't the only posters in there people who have, at minimum, seen F/SN and are within 1 episode of the current F/Z? They already know what happens at the end of F/Z, it's just the small details of how we got there that are new to us. Is there anybody who posts in that thread regularly whose only exposure to the Fate franchise is F/Z? Seems to me like most of them stopped coming to that thread a long time ago. So of course that's going to look like a positive example of source material chit chat if there's no one left who can be spoiled or complain about it. I will admit that the source material discussion there has been beneficial in some cases but I only feel that way because it's not telling me anything I didn't know or couldn't have guessed.
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dormcat
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:48 am Reply with quote
Dessa wrote:
Provided people are respectful, there doesn't need to be a rule like that.

This. Seconded.

Back in the days when simulcast didn't exist, there were people who watched fansubs, as well as those selected few who could receive BS signal; some of them might have read the original manga/novel/VN/etc., some of them might not. Even among fansub watchers there were those who watched "speed subs" i.e. less accurate translation and lower resolution, while others chose to watch HD video with better translation plus translator notes, and still others waited until the entire series had concluded then downloaded the package.

The possibility of some watchers follow the story faster than others ALWAYS exists, and that's why spoiler tags are invented and enforced. If someone simply wants to report an user not utilizing spoiler tags properly then I'm perfectly fine with it; use the report button then. However, Blood- chose to drag unrelated people down to the mud puddle.

Furthermore, I don't understand why Blood- and a few other users of the MGX thread have complained the issue of spoiler tags repeatedly, in a VERY vocal pattern, yet I'm not aware of any other anime discussion thread has complaints of the same intensity levels. I already chose not to participate the discussion of MGX thread after seeing those constant complaints, despite of knowing I'm not the target of those complaints.


Yttrbio wrote:
I find that many people are quite interested in the process by which an anime came to be, and are interested in things like adaptation decisions, which seem very much part of the discussion of an anime. I try to spoiler and label it when I do talk about earlier versions, but there's definitely a discussion to be had about how a manga becomes an anime and how it affects the anime.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but apparently Blood-, The King of Harts, Nosferatu21, and our site administrators are not among those "many people."
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st_owly
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:01 am Reply with quote
I do think outright banning all discussions of source material in anime threads is a bad idea, as like folk have said, it can be interesting to speculate on how the anime will deal with event X as opposed to how the manga/novel/whatever did it, but at the same time, if the thread is largely about the anime, events which haven't occurred in anime form yet should be kept under spoiler tags and marked as manga spoilers or suchlike. Banning all discussion of source material by everyone just because some people choose to be insensitive seems rather heavy handed and unfair on those who do use the tags correctly. I think a warning then a temporary ban would be more appropriate in this instance.
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Nosferatu21



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:27 am Reply with quote
Dessa wrote:
Provided people are respectful, there doesn't need to be a rule like that.

The problem isn't the people who are respectful. It's the people like walw6pK4Alo who aren't being respectful and consistently post unspoilered manga information. In the Dusk Maiden of Amnesia thread, good ol' walw was kind enough to tell us spoiler["Given where the manga and anime are going, I have a feeling the good stuff in the latest few chapters just won't be there in the TV show, possibly headed for the dreaded anime-only original ending."] (spoiler tags added by me). Why was that post even necessary? If he really feared we would get an spoiler[anime only ending], couldn't he have just waited till after we saw the ending and then told us if it had been awful?. I've now been set up to be disappointed by the ending of a show I'm enjoying. Heaven forbid we let the show play out and judge the anime's ending by how the anime set it up. Even if I am extremely satisfied by the ending, I'll still have it in the back of my mind that I may have missed out on something better.

Gon*Gon has NUMEROUS unspoilered posts in the first season of F/Z. The first season of F/Z had so many spoilers of F/SN and identities of F/Z hereos that Etrien wondered "Jeez, y'all don't seem to care much about preserving the mystery of the show. And I don't mean just the person I quoted; lots of people are being far less vague than necessary about the spoilers." And he was quite right. In fact, Key even had to verify the generally accepted rules of spoilers in the anime forum of that thread(page 12 post 8).

Yttrbio wrote:
I find that many people are quite interested in the process by which an anime came to be, and are interested in things like adaptation decisions, which seem very much part of the discussion of an anime. I try to spoiler and label it when I do talk about earlier versions, but there's definitely a discussion to be had about how a manga becomes an anime and how it affects the anime.

In response to this I want to first bring up something that Yttrbio said in the Dusk Maiden of Amnesia thread when we had a small discussion on manga spoilers there:
Yttrbio wrote:
Is this a vote? You use spoiler tags to hide stuff that people might not want to see while discussing an anime. Information about a different story seems to fit the category of "stuff that should be spoiler tagged." I'm one of those people who doesn't mind spoilers at all, but looking under a spoiler tag is trivial. Trying to avoid spoilers that aren't labeled is impossible.

You are correct. Especially the last sentence which is what those of us who have complained have the biggest gripe with. It is impossible to avoid unlabeled spoilers. What's the point of even mentioning things that happened in the source material if the anime isn't past that point? Adaptation changes are things that should be discussed in the past tense i.e. the anime is already past the point of what you want to discuss from the manga. There's no point at all in posting something along the lines of "I wonder how the anime will adapt the time skip". Who could even respond to that? Only someone else who knows what you're talking about.

Dormcat wrote:
I agree with you wholeheartedly, but apparently Blood-, The King of Harts, Nosferatu21, and our site administrators are not among those "many people."


And if our only 2 options are leave things completely as is or ban manga talk, then I PROUDLY stand where I'm at against "many people". Going back to what Dessa said, we shouldn't need a rule for this if people are respectful. But some people aren't being respectful and it's them ruining the viewing experience for those of us who don't know the source material. So we get angry and want a change and that ruins the posting experience for the 3 of you who are respectful over spoilers. The best option would be temporary ban or ban from the thread any of the people who don't tag manga spoilers. I can easily skip over marked manga spoilers and still enjoy posting in the thread. This also leads to less/no complaints of unmarked spoilers in threads so you 3 can still post as you have been only this time it won't be in threads filled with complaints. I think the majority of us can agree this is the most logical option as it doesn't ban manga talk, yet gets rid of what's becoming a bigger problem.


edited to add:

st_owly wrote:
I do think outright banning all discussions of source material in anime threads is a bad idea, as like folk have said, it can be interesting to speculate on how the anime will deal with event X as opposed to how the manga/novel/whatever did it, but at the same time, if the thread is largely about the anime, events which haven't occurred in anime form yet should be kept under spoiler tags and marked as manga spoilers or suchlike. Banning all discussion of source material by everyone just because some people choose to be insensitive seems rather heavy handed and unfair on those who do use the tags correctly. I think a warning then a temporary ban would be more appropriate in this instance.


We're never going to come to a unanimous decision on the fairness. It is unfair for the people who do respectfully mark and tag manga spoilers if they are no longer able to post their full knowledge and insight of a show. It's also not fair that since I haven't read the source material, I have to see unmarked, untagged manga spoilers which leads to a negative effect of my viewing experience. As previously mentioned, I am for lesser punishment than a rule that outright bans all manga talk. I only chose that originally as it felt like there were only 2 options(ban or fix nothing). I would rather see a ban from the thread first instead of a warning though. If it was mistake by the poster or if somebody reporting it overreacted, then a warning could suffice in certain circumstances.

I propose the following rule for the Anime Forum:

All source material related spoilers must be marked and tagged. First offense will get you banned from participating further in that thread. Any further offenses will result in a temporary ban from the Anime Forum.

Ex: Manga spoiler! spoiler[I wonder how the anime will handle the time skip that happened in volume 3? I wonder if they'll rush and end the anime before they get to the point.]

vs.

I wonder how the anime will handle the time skip that happened in volume 3? I wonder if they'll rush and end the anime before they get to the point.

Thoughts?


Last edited by Nosferatu21 on Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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dormcat
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:48 am Reply with quote
Nosferatu21 wrote:
The problem isn't the people who are respectful. It's the people like walw6pK4Alo who aren't being respectful and consistently post unspoilered manga information.

You said yourself. Yet now you and others want to ban the discussion of the original material altogether, regardless of whether spoiler tags have been placed properly or not. Your proposal will deprive rights of those who use spoiler tags properly, as well as rights of those who want to learn more about the original material (and willing to pay the price of being spoiled) from others.
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Nosferatu21



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:56 am Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:
Nosferatu21 wrote:
The problem isn't the people who are respectful. It's the people like walw6pK4Alo who aren't being respectful and consistently post unspoilered manga information.

You said yourself. Yet now you and others want to ban the discussion of the original material altogether, regardless of whether spoiler tags have been placed properly or not. Your proposal will deprive rights of those who use spoiler tags properly, as well as rights of those who want to learn more about the original material (and willing to pay the price of being spoiled) from others.


In my above post, I mentioned near the bottom that the better option is a ban from thread and then temp. ban for offenders. I understand if you didn't read that far as it is very tl;dr Wink I also edited that post to add a possible rule suggestion that would by no means bans manga talk as long as properly marked.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:56 am Reply with quote
@dormcat - MGX is the most egregious example recently, but I learned more about Medaka Box than I wanted to thanks to non-spoiler tagging scanlationers. There's tons of other examples. This frustration of mine on this topic has been building for a long time, it just finally boiled over, thanks mostly to the user in the subject line of this thread. The same user who when asked to cease and desist because his scanlationering was interfering with the enjoyment of other uses just said, "nah."

Using the post report function may help later readers down the line, but it doesn't do much for the person who stumbled across the unspoiler-tagged material in the first place, or others who read the same thing before a mod/admin gets to deal with it, does it? Rolling Eyes

The "site administrators" feel differently than you do about the subject, because unlike you, they actually care if users are unfairly having their enjoyment of posting on a forum ruined because other users aren't using common sense.

By the way, is the user in the subject of this thread actually going to be warned. He strikes me as the kind of ... "person" ... that would need an actual warning or else he'll just keep doing what he's doing.
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dormcat
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:25 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
The same user who when asked to cease and desist because his scanlationering was interfering with the enjoyment of other uses just said, "nah."

I agree giving him a temp ban and, if he does not improve his method, a permanent ban. However your proposal is much more than dealing a single offending user: your proposal will deprive the rights of those who use spoiler tags properly and those who don't mind being spoiled. You're throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Blood- wrote:
The "site administrators" feel differently than you do about the subject, because unlike you, they actually care if users are unfairly having their enjoyment of posting on a forum ruined because other users aren't using common sense.

We staff always have different opinions; don't bother inciting discord among us. Cool
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