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athenox



Joined: 10 May 2015
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 2:12 am Reply with quote
In the Encyclopedia there is a page that has the definition for the word seinen. In there it states that the seinen demographic is "aimed at a young adult male (college-aged)". I believe that incorrect. The demographic that seinen indicates is the age range of 18-30. It even goes as far as 40. I found many websites that support this. Here is just two of them.
http://anime.about.com/​od/​animeglossary/​g/​Seinen.​htm
http://tvtropes.org/​pmwiki/​pmwiki.​php/​Main/​Seinen
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dormcat
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 8:53 am Reply with quote
This one? Depends on whether you translate the word in a general way or how it is used in the anime/manga/game.

After reading the two links you provided, I'd say 1) they are purely from Westerners' perspective, who were introduced to anime way before manga, 2) the two pages have contradictory examples.

The subject can be written into a short thesis but I'm not sure if I have the time or energy to write one.
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Dessa



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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 11:14 am Reply with quote
It should also be noted that the definition is for the kanji 青年, which does specifically translate to "youth, young man", as shown in the entry. HOWEVER, there is ANOTHER kanji that can be read as "seinen", which is 成年, which means "majority, adult age".

Those sites are probably combining the two into one definition, which is why they're getting such a large range in age for "seinen".
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dormcat
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 12:53 pm Reply with quote
Dessa wrote:
Those sites are probably combining the two into one definition, which is why they're getting such a large range in age for "seinen".

Ahh, thank you. For a person whose mind works in kanji mode first, that would explain quite a number of rather...... interesting definitions in English e.g. "In fact, hentai (not including yaoi) is mostly targeted at the seinen demographic."

For the "classic" definition (which is also the narrowest), only manga magazines starting with "Young" AND with a "Shonen" counterpart (thus Young You is not included) can be regarded as seinen (青年); non-erotic 成年 magazines have the "Business" prefix. Dengeki series magazines are media-mix / "comicalize" (コミカライズ) magazines and are not among those "classic" manga magazines.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 12:36 am Reply with quote
It would be good if ANN can add demographic targets by the original Japanese publishers to Encyclopedia 2.0. Too many people assume them based on content.
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Dan42
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 10:33 am Reply with quote
I'm not sure if that's what you meant, but attaching the demographic information to the magazine instead of the serialized titles, now that would be a very good idea.
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configspace



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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 12:53 am Reply with quote
Well both actually. While it's more important to have it in the publication's entry, if you have demographic info for the magazine it's serialized in your database, it seems like you could just reference that info in the manga & anime entry too.
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Shiroi Hane
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 12:38 pm Reply with quote
Dan42 wrote:
I'm not sure if that's what you meant, but attaching the demographic information to the magazine instead of the serialized titles, now that would be a very good idea.

Unless it has changed since I pretty much gave up editing Wikipedia, while it attached demographics to manga, the policy was that it was determined solely by the demographic of the magazine it ran in (so anime-original works should not get a demographic etc)
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 1:47 pm Reply with quote
Can I suggest updating the Encyclopedia definition to mention the different definitions and Kanji, even if it is to say "these others exist, but are not accurate in this usage."
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 1:52 pm Reply with quote
Dan42 wrote:
I'm not sure if that's what you meant, but attaching the demographic information to the magazine instead of the serialized titles, now that would be a very good idea.
configspace wrote:
Well both actually. While it's more important to have it in the publication's entry, if you have demographic info for the magazine it's serialized in your database, it seems like you could just reference that info in the manga & anime entry too.
Shiroi Hane wrote:

Unless it has changed since I pretty much gave up editing Wikipedia, while it attached demographics to manga, the policy was that it was determined solely by the demographic of the magazine it ran in (so anime-original works should not get a demographic etc)


In general it would make sense to just automatically copy the magazine's demographic to the manga. Ie: When someone ads "serialized in [x]" to the manga, where X is an anthology, X's demographic information is automatically added to the manga.

However this information should be redeemable because there are exceptions. In another thread, we've been discussing the case of manga geared towards one demographic, but published in an anthology geared towards another (with the goal of attracting a wider audience to the magazine). There are also cases of manga which have changed magazines, it's possible that their demographics shifted with the change (in which case the manga has 2 demographics) or that the demographic remained constant.
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configspace



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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:06 pm Reply with quote
I think listing out changes or shifts in publication demographics for a manga entry would be good too. Off the top of my head although not for exactly the same title but still the same universe, the Sakura Wars manga was originally Seinen, then had spin offs as Shounen, then Shoujo.
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bglassbrook



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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 12:12 am Reply with quote
Is demographic even a field currently (outside of the regular genre section or miscellaneous field, anyway?) None of the titles I've tried at random (or those listed in the lexicon definition) appear to list it.

Genres don't seem to allow for precisions, which regardless of whether demographic is its own thing, should perhaps get added to allow for major shifts in tone.
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Shiroi Hane
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 1:43 pm Reply with quote
configspace wrote:
I think listing out changes or shifts in publication demographics for a manga entry would be good too. Off the top of my head although not for exactly the same title but still the same universe, the Sakura Wars manga was originally Seinen, then had spin offs as Shounen, then Shoujo.

Spin-offs would normally get their own entry though, wouldn't they? The only exception I can think might be a oneshot by the same author that gets shoved under the main entry, but I doubt those would be in a different magazine.
I am reminded of something I noticed when re-reading Ghost Hunt recently - one of the authors's notes mentioned that from the next volume it would be published straight to TPB, without being serialised. Technically those later chapters don't have a "serialised in", or even a demographic in the strictest sense, unless the books were published under a magazine imprint.
The first example of a title changing magazine that comes to mind is Lucky Star, but I don't believe there was any change in demographic. Aren't most changes like that due to publishers consolidating etc? I have a feeling there have been manga that have jumped magazine due to a falling out between author and publisher, but I can't come up with any actual examples.
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Dan42
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 10:17 am Reply with quote
Coincidentally, Justin's latest answerman column tackles the question of how do you classify which demographic category a manga fits into. His answer mirrors my own thinking: categorizing manga and anime by magazine demographic is outdated, subjective, meaningless, and even somewhat harmful.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 4:48 am Reply with quote
My opinion is that IF we were to have a demographics label, then use the original one assigned by the magazine, otherwise, don't use one at all. Personally I still find it informative. If anything the Japanese demographics label serves to separate demographics from genre which people very often conflate.

For example almost no western fan expects 4-koma manga like K-On to be Seinen, yet the majority of them are. If you're an artist who wants to do some slice-of-life or dialogue driven 4 panel comic, you'll be serialized in some Seinen mag almost by default. Who says Seinen always has to be dark, brooding and serious? It's more harmful to assume that it is.

Anyways, since an encyclopedia's purpose is to record information it would still be useful just for that. I think tt's dangerous to start filtering out information encyclopedia editors don't agree with, or invent your own system. MAL does this with age ratings (a subset of demographics) and it's particularly bad as their users get the wrong idea from completely fabricated information that seems "official"

One additional information I think would be useful is what this commenter mentioned about post-publication statistics i.e. target audience vs hit audience that the publishers circulate among retailers in Japan:
Quote:
For example, every year Shueisha gives retailers a Media Guide where there is the information about the actual hit audience of their magazines. There they inform about how much each series sells, how much each age group buys their magazines, how much each sex buys each magazine and more information. Print numbers are also this kind of information, and is normally also used to promote volumes when the value is significant(for example reaching 1 Million copies in print).
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