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The X Button - Fantasy Stars


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DavidShallcross



Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 1008
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:45 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
I personally cannot see the supposed awesomeness of FF. Give me Disgaea any day of the week if I wanted to play a JRPG, because Disgaea not only plays better (Strategy RPG >>>>> Turn-Based), it isn't mired down in aggravating emo-protagonists and pretentious and not very well-written plots.

If this is standard terminology, then standard terminology is all wonky. In Disgaea, you take turns -- the enemy takes no action other than counters until you declare your turn over. In many of the Final Fantasy games, the enemy does not wait its turn until you are done, but just until a certain amount of clock time has taken place, so you can really suffer if you spend time trying to chose the best action.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4377
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:57 pm Reply with quote
thenix wrote:
Chagen46 wrote:
I personally cannot see the supposed awesomeness of FF. Give me Disgaea any day of the week if I wanted to play a JRPG, because Disgaea not only plays better (Strategy RPG >>>>> Turn-Based), it isn't mired down in aggravating emo-protagonists and pretentious and not very well-written plots. Plus Disgaea's character design is way better.


srpg and turn based rpgs are completely different and I don't' think they should be compared. As for how "well written" it is, Disgaea and their games are really really simplistic and shallow anime turned into video game. Just throwing out a general plot with alot of goofyness and no depth in the story. (Not I'm putting it down for that, I enjoyed it for what it was) And final fantasy is a deep world to enjoy with a main story, back story and much left to ponder for the future. Again not easy to compare as they have different enjoyments. If you don't' like a deep story or turn based RPGs then it's not the game for you but I don't know how you are saying it's better.


Oh, I enjoy deep stories, but FF doesn't really have them. It has painfully pretentious writing and bland characters.

At least Disgaea is incredibly funny most of the time.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:58 pm Reply with quote
CrownKlown wrote:
Final Fantasy XII received universally high review scores, and earned numerous "Game of the Year" awards in various categories from noted video game publications. Selling more than two million copies in Japan, it became the fourth best-selling PlayStation 2 game of 2006 worldwide. As of March 2007, over 5.2 million copies of the game have been shipped worldwide. A sequel, Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings, was released for the Nintendo DS in 2007.

FF 13 on the other hand is probably the worst numbered none online game in the series, and probably the worst game period along with the first Crystal Chronicles for the gamecube; its got its own blurbs on criticism on its wiki article. Terrible characters, terrible story, awful gameplay - the staggering system, and the quasi job system were awful.


Well, you're using Wikipedia's 'Reception' section is the main problem. Where anyone can put in their reveiw score if they feel like it (David's Gaming Blog gave it a 0/10 and said it "sucked monkey butt").

Don't use online review scores as any kind of basis for your argument, let alone on Wikipedia. Even if you did, I don't see how it benefits you. IGN, Gamespot, and the usual corperate sites gave FFXIII an 8.9/10. Since when is that a bad score? Can people at least cite a source when they pull the "critically panned" excuse out of thier butt? Where are these 'crticially slammed' reviews people keep mentioning? The aformentioned David's Gaming Blog?

Dessa wrote:
t's an Opinion section.


There's a difference between an opinion and flat out making stuff up. Where is all this 'backlash' for 13 outside some ranty people on message boards, which every game gets? It got terrific scores on all the main sites. This is where you actually cite sources to make yourself look educated and credible to help back up your viewpoints and opinions.

RyanSaotome wrote:
For me, the big thing with Final Fantasy is that it hasn't gotten worse; we've gotten older and have more expectations. As a 13 year old, experiencing FF7 for the first time was a great experience... thing is, we're not young teens anymore, so games aimed at them don't appeal to the older demographics anymore. But FF13 DOES appeal to teens still that haven't played the older games and still like the typical shonen kinda stories.


The reason FF7 did so well was because it was America's first big JRPG. It's mostly the novelty effect and rose tinted glasses. Objectively, there's so many more FFs that are better written and have better developed characters. FFXIII alone has better written and developed characters.

Dimlos wrote:
Which Final Fantasy XII are you talking about? And, y'know, considering FFX is one of the most widely liked games in the series, I kind of think I'm willing to take how well-received a game is with a grain of salt (even though XII was well-received and sold well, so your argument is pretty bunk).


Of course it sold well. Even a 'bomb' for Final Fantasy is still better than most other franchises would call a 'smashing success'. But in terms of sales it was the second lowest of the franchise, the lowest being 9. 13 sold considerably more.


sainta wrote:
I kind of get the problem with Toriyama. While the games he directed were enjoyable, they did not meet fans' expectations. When I heard of FFX-2 I expected a story similar to FFX, and diverse cast of characters, but I only got Yuna, Rikku and Paine in a calm story without deaths. Little did they do to explain what happened with Tidus who had like 3 lines considering he was what sets up the plot. Not that I didn't enjoy FFX-2. The combat system was fun and backstories were enjoyable.

The same goes with FFX13-2 where they also kind of ignored the former protagonist for most of the game and only gave two playable character. However, the story was dark so it's kind of improvement.


Darker does not equal better. Especially in X-2 when the end of the first game was them saving the world. There's no reason for the second game to be dark. Though the story of Shuyin and Lenne was fairly 'depressing'. FFXIII-2 had a reason to be dark, given the way the story and world ended in the first game.

ChibiKangaroo wrote:
The greatest FF games, in my opinion, were the ones that were innovative and told stories that challenged the player. FF IV made you into the anti-hero on a quest for redemption.


Quote:
FF VI forced you to play the game from the perspective of a dizzying array of "protagonists," each of whom had their own deep backstory and hopes for the future.


Quote:
FF VII was a grand opera masquerading as a video game, forcing the player to accept the death of love and yet persevere for the greater good.


So like Final Fantasy XIII... all those points are found in XIII.

Quote:
This type of grand innovation and storytelling has been lacking from FF games for a long while.


I guess if you haven't actually played a game in years I could see how you can say that.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:09 pm Reply with quote
Aynslesa wrote:
ChibiKangaroo wrote:


What FF X stood for in my opinion was a departure of SE from story focus and moving more towards focus on game appearance. The visuals in FF X were of course far superior to prior FF games. The cut scenes clearly had a lot of work done on them. However, the move away from creating truly great character driven stories, in my opinion, damaged the franchise.


Really? That's a rather interesting statement, because in my opinion Final Fantasy X has one of the deepest stories in the franchise. It's incredibly multi-layered. It begins as a standard hero-in-another-world story, evolves into a damsel-in-distress tale, then (when it becomes quite clear said damsel can handle herself pretty well), evolves into a romance tale, and eventually culminates in a rather deep story concerning the cycle of life, death, and fate. The ending of the game, when all the chips fall into place, is incredibly poignant.

I'm used to people marking down X for the voice acting and/or certain characters, but I've never heard anyone fault the story. At least, not anyone who's actually finished the game. Color me startled.


I don't disagree about SE attempting to bring those various plot elements into FF X, however I don't think they were well executed.

First I would say that I feel strongly (as I think someone else already mentioned) that FF VI by far had the deepest story of any FF game. You had 14 permanent playable characters. ALL of them, except for Mog, Gogo and Umaro, had detailed backgrounds and their own dedicated chapter(s) of the overall story. The plots between the various characters were very skillfully weaved together so they intersected at different points. It was a masterpiece of story telling. Plus, it is hard to beat Kefka as the most love/hated villain of any FF game.

Back to FF X, as I said, yes they did try to merge those plot elements but some of them just weren't believable.

Tidus and Yuna's romance seemed very forced to me. They weren't childhood sweethearts, they weren't rivals or enemies turned into friends or anything of that sort, they didn't seem to have a whole lot in common as far as personal hobbies or interests or anything. It just felt like the writers were at a planning session and said "Okay we have two main characters, one boy one girl, they're gonna be in love at some point." There didn't seem to be anything organic about their relationship. Watch that "tidus and yuna laugh" scene again (it is on youtube) and tell me that looks organic to you!!!

Also, as I said in my original post, Tidus' transition to Spira was a bit disjointed. I am not kidding. I still distinctly remember first playing the game, watching all the cut-scene stuff and thinking "okay, this is looking pretty cool, ohhh, this blitzball thing looks interesting.. maybe a little weird but, might be cool..." then suddenly Tidus is in a different world, some old guy tosses him a sword, and its like -FIGHT- and Tidus is executing special attacks and stuff with the sword. I had a double take. I'm thinking, shouldn't he not be able to just start using a sword like that without any training at all? At a minimum, they could have said "Yea, Tidus actually was a champion fencer on his high school team before he got pulled to Spira" or something. Also, they didn't really build any depth on the struggles of him transitioning to Spira. It felt like he and Auran just kind of proceeded with the story as if transporting to another world was completely normal.

The damsel in distress part was better, but I always got the impression that Yuna was a stronger character (at least mentally) than Tidus, so it made it a little hard to believe at times. It was like a child trying to rescue an adult.

The part about the cycle of life and death with that Sin creature, OK that was well thought up. I was somewhat pleased when I got to the ending so I don't call the game a total disaster, but it doesn't make up for all the other issues I have with the game, and also, I really wasn't happy with the character designs either. The characters heads and faces were modeled in a kind of childish way but they weren't "cute," with their bodies showing strange looking muscle definition. Most of their bodies and faces just didn't seem to match.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:20 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:


ChibiKangaroo wrote:
The greatest FF games, in my opinion, were the ones that were innovative and told stories that challenged the player. FF IV made you into the anti-hero on a quest for redemption.


Quote:
FF VI forced you to play the game from the perspective of a dizzying array of "protagonists," each of whom had their own deep backstory and hopes for the future.


Quote:
FF VII was a grand opera masquerading as a video game, forcing the player to accept the death of love and yet persevere for the greater good.


So like Final Fantasy XIII... all those points are found in XIII.


So, in FF XIII you had control over 14 main characters, 11 of them being actual protagonists with backstories and intertwining plot diversions. You had a mostly open world to travel through, where you could explore various aspects of the game in the order you wanted, including hidden content, chocobo breeding/racing, and special bosses. You had one of the main characters die. And you had a main protagonist go from evil to good?
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ShinnFlowen



Joined: 07 Feb 2012
Posts: 141
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:30 pm Reply with quote
One of the biggest issues with Japanese game developers as Todd mentioned is that their talent pool has no rising stars to help create Final Fantasy games for modern audiences. You look at Hideo Kojima and he explained how Metal Gear Rising was almost scrapped because his team could not do anything without him until Platinum Games took over the combat system.

Metal Gear Solid 4 a highly acclaimed game had an American named Ryan Payton help advise Kojima in making the game better for western audiences.

Everyone has to face the fact that Square Enix is able to make a gorgeous looking game with a decent combat system, but they suck at making games that have compelling characters or stories to most gamers and they NEED new talent to fix this issue.
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sainta



Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 989
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:13 pm Reply with quote
Aynslesa wrote:

I'm used to people marking down X for the voice acting and/or certain characters, but I've never heard anyone fault the story. At least, not anyone who's actually finished the game. Color me startled.


In case of the voice actors, most of them were good even though it was the first Final Fantasy with voice acting. The ones that are often criticized are James Arnold Taylor's Tidus and Hedy Burress' Yuna. It was as if Taylor could not keep a constant tone for Tidus as noticed between Tidus' quiet narration and his common voice while Burress often made the character more sighing. The "infamous laugh scene" was actually a forced laugh as far as I remember in which even the other characters wondered if Tidus and Yuna went crazy for a minute. Tidus actually laughs various times in the game, and it really does nto sound forced.

In the Dissidia FF games Tidus and Yuna had the same actors and they seemed to have improved specially Taylor who reminded to the original Tidus by Masakazu Morita.

I'm not really into romances but I liked Tidus' and Yuna's cos they actually got along and spent time together like real couples unlike some anime couples who happen to spend most of their time arguing.
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Aynslesa



Joined: 08 Feb 2012
Posts: 199
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:22 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
Watch that "tidus and yuna laugh" scene again (it is on youtube) and tell me that looks organic to you!!!



The thing with the 'Tidus and Yuna laugh' scene is that it's not actually a very good example of their relationship being organic. The entire point of the scene is that the laughter is supposed to come across as forced. If you watch the Japanese version, you'll see the same thing - in fact, it's even *more* forced, with Tidus sounding very much like a dying crow. But that's the point of it. The characters are attempting to diffuse tension, but clearly there's too much of it for them to be completely successful.

Stepping back - and pardon me for lack of quotes, I'm typing this at work using a terrible browser - I'll admit that I can't adequately make a comparison between FFX and FFVI because I haven't yet completed VI (yes, I know... ; ; It's on my to do list, but I didn't have access to it for a long time). One of my best friends has played both, and he often has a hard time figuring out which he liked better, VI or X. Going off of what I do know about VI, I'll give you the character background - you really don't get to know the other characters in FFX all that well. Honestly though, that never really bothered me, primarily because I always felt the story was about Yuna, Tidus, and Seymour. Yes...I said Seymour. ::waits for the rotten fruit::
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:25 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
So, in FF XIII you had control over 14 main characters, 11 of them being actual protagonists with backstories and intertwining plot diversions.


As much as I love VI, XIII did so much more with only six protagonists. And let's be honest, not every character in VI was a Locke or Celes. Gau, Strago, Relm, Mog, Umaro, and Gogo were fairly one note. More is not better.

Quote:
You had a mostly open world to travel through, where you could explore various aspects of the game in the order you wanted, including hidden content, chocobo breeding/racing, and special bosses.


None of this was at all mentioned in your post. Now you're trying to backpedal. Nor does it even have to do with story.

Quote:
You had one of the main characters die. And you had a main protagonist go from evil to good?


Two character, actually. And evil is fairly subjective, but given how spoiler[Vanielle] caused most of the problems in 13 and ruined so many people's lives, and the game showcased her atonement and guilt over it... sure, why not?

ShinnFlowen wrote:
Everyone has to face the fact that Square Enix is able to make a gorgeous looking game with a decent combat system, but they suck at making games that have compelling characters or stories to most gamers and they NEED new talent to fix this issue.


Correction: "to some American gamers". Japan and a bulk of people in America seems to have no problem.

And why do we keep saying no one likes the stories or games Japan makes and they need to change? Last checked, FF still sells more than Mass Effect, Dragon Age, or any other 'story RPG' America makes... shouldn't we be talking about the opposite if sale numbers are important and a dictate of what people buy and like? ME3 and DA2 got more scathing bile than FFXIII ever did. Why not crusade how to fix those game by adding in 'Eastern talent'? How can a game that sells almost 7 million be a flop that needs to change, but one that barely sells over 1 million is the jewel in the king's crown the first one needs to emulate? In what world does this logic make any kind of sense?
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:39 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
So, in FF XIII you had control over 14 main characters, 11 of them being actual protagonists with backstories and intertwining plot diversions.


As much as I love VI, XIII did so much more with only six protagonists. And let's be honest, not every character in VI was a Locke or Celes. Gau, Strago, Relm, Mog, Umaro, and Gogo were fairly one note. More is not better.



Actually, Locke, Celes, Gau, Strago and Relm were all very well fleshed out. Celes was following in the anti-hero mold of Cecil from FF IV. Also her participation in the opera scene is often regarded as one of the most memorable scenes of any FF game. Locke was clearly put forward as an early important protagonist. Much of the story is driven by him and his interaction with Terra. Gau, although probably the least developed of the main protagonists, does have an interesting backstory in how he was abandoned as a child and he does serve as a kind of comic relief throughout much of the game. He definitely has a persona even if his back story isn't as well detailed. Strago and Relm had a very interesting story involving the Ninja character Shadow, which I won't talk about too much for spoiler reasons of course. But I thought that whole tie in with Shadow and his dog Interceptor was quite compelling. They probably could have done a little bit more between Relm and Shadow, but it was a really nice story.


Quote:

Quote:
You had a mostly open world to travel through, where you could explore various aspects of the game in the order you wanted, including hidden content, chocobo breeding/racing, and special bosses.


None of this was at all mentioned in your post. Now you're trying to backpedal. Nor does it even have to do with story.


True I didn't mention this in my original post, but you were comparing FF XIII to those 3 games I mentioned as if it has everything they have. It doesn't.
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sainta



Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 989
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:20 pm Reply with quote
Aynslesa wrote:


The thing with the 'Tidus and Yuna laugh' scene is that it's not actually a very good example of their relationship being organic. The entire point of the scene is that the laughter is supposed to come across as forced. If you watch the Japanese version, you'll see the same thing - in fact, it's even *more* forced, with Tidus sounding very much like a dying crow. But that's the point of it. The characters are attempting to diffuse tension, but clearly there's too much of it for them to be completely successful.

Stepping back - and pardon me for lack of quotes, I'm typing this at work using a terrible browser - I'll admit that I can't adequately make a comparison between FFX and FFVI because I haven't yet completed VI (yes, I know... ; ; It's on my to do list, but I didn't have access to it for a long time). One of my best friends has played both, and he often has a hard time figuring out which he liked better, VI or X. Going off of what I do know about VI, I'll give you the character background - you really don't get to know the other characters in FFX all that well. Honestly though, that never really bothered me, primarily because I always felt the story was about Yuna, Tidus, and Seymour. Yes...I said Seymour. ::waits for the rotten fruit::


Well Seymour really made a good villain. Killing lots of people, enjoying that, his really scary aeon and that backstory briefly shown in Zanarkand which kind of explain his personality. I wish he was added to the Dissidia games. Ironically, Seymour is a new playable character in FFX-2 Int+Last Mission alongside Tidus and Auron. Too bad the update was never translated. I played FFVI and my favorite characters were Celes (mostly after Kefka's chaos) and Edgar.


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belvadeer





PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:20 pm Reply with quote
Aquario: Considering how fun Monster World and Wonder Boy games are, this one needs to be given a chance. Tweet and post people, tweet and post.

Okami HD: Guess this is my last chance to play this great game. I never had a chance to upon its original release.

FF: I for one, who's played the first FF since I was out of the cradle and able to hold a controller, feel the series has gone through a strange transition of various changes and alterations. I'm not going to pretend none of them sucked as a few disappointed me, but at the same time I'm not going to tell them to "go back to the old days" either. I'll be honest, and this applies to any JRPG series: I will never be tired of the save the world formula. What matters is how the story progresses, what parts are poignant to plot and character development and if the journey to the end is truly enjoyable. Outright, I will say that I have no problem with them trying new things, but I do understand that simply slapping a popular brand name on anything doesn't make it Midas gold.

A series of games usually have a certain feel to them based on their framework. It's important for developers to retain that feel while experimenting with new ideas. Problem is a lot of those new ideas "derail the feel of the series" according to some fans' comments. I understand their view on that. Let's say you take away the fantasy, is it still FF? I think this largely stems from doing too many different things with the series. I can't say I liked XII as much as some did and XIII is 50/50 with me (it had neat ideas, but some of them didn't really mesh well with the rest of the game). Presentation is just as important as execution.

In essence, catering to a single mindset in the fandom is impossible since some people will say "Do something new!" while others say "Keep it the same!" and this draws that ever irritating dividing line that we as general gamers facepalm at. I grew up with FF, as many of us did, and we've all seen the series change its mask more than once over the years. I know a bunch of the fans will think Theatrhythm is the most ridiculous load of crap ever while others will be happy to have a game that focuses solely on the music we've all come to love about the series. It's all about point of view.

Unchained Blades: Only a download. Not really thrilled about that, but I won't complain. It's better than nothing and I was practically begging for this to come here.

Record of Agarest War 2: I just hope we're getting the Meu DLC. It would be bizarre not to considering she has made appearances here in the U.S. before (Spectral Souls 2 on PSP and Cross Edge).


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Aynslesa



Joined: 08 Feb 2012
Posts: 199
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:22 pm Reply with quote
sainta wrote:
Aynslesa wrote:

I'm used to people marking down X for the voice acting and/or certain characters, but I've never heard anyone fault the story. At least, not anyone who's actually finished the game. Color me startled.


In case of the voice actors, most of them were good even though it was the first Final Fantasy with voice acting. The ones that are often criticized are James Arnold Taylor's Tidus and Hedy Burress' Yuna. It was as if Taylor could not keep a constant tone for Tidus as noticed between Tidus' quiet narration and his common voice while Burress often made the character more sighing. The "infamous laugh scene" was actually a forced laugh as far as I remember in which even the other characters wondered if Tidus and Yuna went crazy for a minute. Tidus actually laughs various times in the game, and it really does nto sound forced.

In the Dissidia FF games Tidus and Yuna had the same actors and they seemed to have improved specially Taylor who reminded to the original Tidus by Masakazu Morita.

I'm not really into romances but I liked Tidus' and Yuna's cos they actually got along and spent time together like real couples unlike some anime couples who happen to spend most of their time arguing.


Missed this post when I did my last one.

Yes - so much yes on the forced laugh. I'm so tired of people pointing to that and using it as an example of Tidus and Yuna's voiceacting when it's not a valid example in the slightest. You can tell just by watching the JP version - it's even *more* forced.

I agree one hundred percent - Tidus was one of James Arnold Taylor's first roles, if I remember correctly, and you can tell that he was still trying to figure himself out. I enjoyed Hedy Burress' depiction of Yuna in X, but even better in X-2 - she did a great job in making me believe that yes, two years is enough time for someone as softspoken and sheltered as Yuna to start becoming more outgoing.

I was blown away by both of them in the Dissidia games, honestly, in particular Taylor as Tidus. You could clearly see how he's matured since X was released. I'm honestly disappointed that the new HD rerelease of X isn't going to see a redone vocal track, because I've love to see how they'd portray the characters now, after so many years.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:41 pm Reply with quote
Aynslesa wrote:


Yes - so much yes on the forced laugh. I'm so tired of people pointing to that and using it as an example of Tidus and Yuna's voiceacting when it's not a valid example in the slightest. You can tell just by watching the JP version - it's even *more* forced.



Whether or not it was supposed to be forced, it did not sound even like a "natural" forced laugh. It sounded very much like a forced laugh that a cyborg might try to do if it were attempting to unsuccessfully imitate a human. First of all, Tidus spends like 15 seconds walking around, getting ready and breathing loudly, like he's about to belt out some kind of amazing ballad or perform some amazing athletic feat. Then, the "Ha..... ha...... ha.... ha...... ha.... ha.... haa" was so broken up, it's like they're trying to dislodge something from their throat rather than laugh. Then in between laughs, he kind of stands there looking up at the sky with this creepy look to his face. It just really weirded me out the first time I saw the scene and EVERY time I watch it, it is just a cringeworthy scene.
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Gewürtztraminer



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 1028
Location: Texas - Its like whole other country.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:16 pm Reply with quote
Looking forward to Agarest 2, the fanservice aspect of this series was so misleading, especially in the first game. It was very much tamer than most RPG's out there (but heavily loaded with bait and switch scenes).
Gameplay was really tough until a light went off in my head and I finally "got" it.
Agarest Zero was a better game mechanics wise, and accomplished more in only two generations as opposed to the firsts five (plus you could play a condensed version of the first within the second).

I do wish this was on the 360 like the other two, as it is my default gaming machine unlike the PS3, which is my default Blu Ray player.

FF XIII was both my first and FINAL fantasy game. I liked the plot, but never felt like I had any control over the course of action or the player development. It was way too long and repetitive for someone new to the franchise (and this is coming from someone who has over 400 hours combined in Persona's 3 and 4).
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