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Hey, Answerman! - Character Arc de Triumph


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rinmackie



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 918
Location: in a van! down by the river!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:59 pm Reply with quote
Brian's right about fantasy rape stories being evaluated in terms of context and audience. I love BSDM-type yaoi but I am mature enough to understand that it's just fantasy. Even though I like those kinds of stories, I disapprove of real life rape of any kind.

As for the whole 50 Shades of Gray thing, I can't help but laugh at the mainstream media's reaction: OMGZ, WOMEN LIKE KINKY PORN STUFF?!!!

Um, yeah. Rolling Eyes
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Sewingrose



Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Posts: 512

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:00 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, not touching the misandry/misogony thing with a ten-foot pole. Though I will say the yaoi title at least is sort of billing itself as a dystopian sci-fi thing.

I wonder if we'll get any new manga creators who can be as closely involved in the development in the anime production of their series.
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Cutiebunny



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 454

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:10 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
.. whatever your personal "kink" is, I'm not going to judge you for it...which one is gross and which one is fine? They're both gross. Let's not kid ourselves. They're both stories about people being dominated by caste systems they don't understand, and in the process, grow to "love" their captors by some bizarre plot contrivance/Stockholm Syndrome. That's icky.


And yet you just did judge the OP.

I'm a woman, and I have to admit that I absolutely love stories like these, regardless of pairing. Can't get enough of them. Reverse harems from Aya Shouoto like Barajou no Kiss featuring strong females and some males with S&M fetishes? Yes please. Playful torture, and even rape (because in most of these stories, it is a rather consensual rape) can be incredibly erotic and it is presented as such, and largely to a female audience.

But that's because they're stories. Make believe stuff. Real life people aren't getting hurt.

I can't speak for the OP, but I draw the line between this happening in real life and this happening on the pages of my tankobon. And I'd imagine that most readers are like this as well. Just because we enjoy the fantasy presented in manga does not mean we are sick. Nor does it mean that we're going to go out and try to duplicate the scenarios we read in our own personal lives (although I'm sure that many of us do engage in consensual RP with our significant others) with non-consenting individuals nor will we question what is wrong with people who are vicitimized in such a fashion. It's just a fantasy, simply put, and it's an escape that many of us enjoy at the end of the day.

And please, don't argue with me that those reading the stories are impressionable people who will think that they're not in a real relationship until they're in the same type of abusive relationship their favorite manga characters are in. The majority of people are not this stupid, and if they are, it's another fine example of social darwinism at work. Sorry to be blunt, but I personally feel that if you're required to take a test to get out of high school, get into college, get a driver's license, etc. that you should also be required to take a test to be a parent.

But anyways...

Everyone has their own thing when it comes to sex - whether it be eroge, cos/crossplay, S&M, etc. And as long as it happens between two consenting adults in private, I have no problem with whatever acts, in whatever fashion, they choose to engage in.
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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3485
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:41 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
The reason behind the double standard is clear: there was never a period of time where men weren't considered people. Women were considered second class citizens for the longest time and while there have been great advancements in that area, sexism against women does still exist. A title like the one mentioned would bring back memories of when women were considered as nothing but possessions of their husbands, and the (justified) resentment towards that time period is still pretty fresh in a lot of minds.

Added to that, there's a common knee jerk reaction to this stuff: "What? This woman enjoys being dominated by a man? THAT MEANS THE AUTHOR IS SAYING ALL WOMEN SHOULD ENJOY BEING DOMINATED BY MEN!!!"

Men being dominated doesn't have that stigma attached to it. That's also why we can have all these violent tsundere characters around and no one raises a fuss compared to how they would if a man struck a woman.

Sexism, abuse, and rape directed at men are very real but in the public eye aren't seen as a big deal. Men are still expected to "suck it up" and be tough. And I know some extreme feminists who would say that men can't complain about such treatment since women had to suffer through it for years.

Some stuff is just unnacceptable regardless of the genders involved.

As far as kinks go, I'll take consensual sex in the missionary position any day.


....you are sick sick sick person I"m guessing this gets your rocks off as well.


well all joking aside hatred of men or women.. it doesn't really occur to me much because I'll face it, I love or dislike a person for who they are and how they treat me. Their gender, race or sexuality/desires doesn't come into factor.
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AgitoZ



Joined: 05 Jan 2012
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:49 pm Reply with quote
Cutiebunny wrote:
And yet you just did judge the OP.

How so? Brian doesn't follow up his statement of "They're both gross." with "And your gross for liking them". He's judging both works and came to the conclusion that they're both equally as offensive. You're just retreading the same ground Brian covered with your later comments.
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rheiders



Joined: 05 Jul 2011
Posts: 1010
Location: Colorful Colorado :)

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:31 pm Reply with quote
Cutiebunny wrote:
Quote:
.. whatever your personal "kink" is, I'm not going to judge you for it...which one is gross and which one is fine? They're both gross. Let's not kid ourselves. They're both stories about people being dominated by caste systems they don't understand, and in the process, grow to "love" their captors by some bizarre plot contrivance/Stockholm Syndrome. That's icky.


And yet you just did judge the OP.

I'm a woman, and I have to admit that I absolutely love stories like these, regardless of pairing. Can't get enough of them. Reverse harems from Aya Shouoto like Barajou no Kiss featuring strong females and some males with S&M fetishes? Yes please. Playful torture, and even rape (because in most of these stories, it is a rather consensual rape) can be incredibly erotic and it is presented as such, and largely to a female audience.

But that's because they're stories. Make believe stuff. Real life people aren't getting hurt.

I can't speak for the OP, but I draw the line between this happening in real life and this happening on the pages of my tankobon. And I'd imagine that most readers are like this as well. Just because we enjoy the fantasy presented in manga does not mean we are sick. Nor does it mean that we're going to go out and try to duplicate the scenarios we read in our own personal lives (although I'm sure that many of us do engage in consensual RP with our significant others) with non-consenting individuals nor will we question what is wrong with people who are vicitimized in such a fashion. It's just a fantasy, simply put, and it's an escape that many of us enjoy at the end of the day.

And please, don't argue with me that those reading the stories are impressionable people who will think that they're not in a real relationship until they're in the same type of abusive relationship their favorite manga characters are in. The majority of people are not this stupid, and if they are, it's another fine example of social darwinism at work. Sorry to be blunt, but I personally feel that if you're required to take a test to get out of high school, get into college, get a driver's license, etc. that you should also be required to take a test to be a parent.

But anyways...

Everyone has their own thing when it comes to sex - whether it be eroge, cos/crossplay, S&M, etc. And as long as it happens between two consenting adults in private, I have no problem with whatever acts, in whatever fashion, they choose to engage in.


He means it's "icky" when you put it in a real-world context. That's all. And as AgitoZ said, he gave his opinion on the shows themselves, not the people watching them.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 12665
Location: NZL

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:48 pm Reply with quote
rheiders wrote:
And as AgitoZ said, he gave his opinion on the shows themselves, not the people watching them.


But the implication always exists that if something is disgusting then in the beholder's eyes it reflects negatively on those who like it. Even if they don't say that they look down on the other person, even if they strenuously deny it, the implication - heck, the expectation - is still there that they do.

For example, many (if not most) people think cannibalism is disgusting, and that people who like cannibalism are also disgusting. Same with child pornography; anyone who likes something so vile must be vile themselves, you know?
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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3485
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:00 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
rheiders wrote:
And as AgitoZ said, he gave his opinion on the shows themselves, not the people watching them.


But the implication always exists that if something is disgusting then in the beholder's eyes it reflects negatively on those who like it. Even if they don't say that they look down on the other person, even if they strenuously deny it, the implication - heck, the expectation - is still there that they do.

For example, many (if not most) people think cannibalism is disgusting, and that people who like cannibalism are also disgusting. Same with child pornography; anyone who likes something so vile must be vile themselves, you know?


I get what you are saying but are bringing two moot subjects into play because of the wide margin of hate/disgust for them. Hey I'm a bit of kink freak myself but even I can't find approval for CP. Cannibalism is also disgusting but at least you can write good horror stories, fiction and tell history of what people used to do in ancient tribes... I can see this going in circles now on other issues and In all honesty... I'm damn tired to get a forum mess.
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Cutiebunny



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 454

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:14 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:

But the implication always exists that if something is disgusting then in the beholder's eyes it reflects negatively on those who like it. Even if they don't say that they look down on the other person, even if they strenuously deny it, the implication - heck, the expectation - is still there that they do.


Pretty much this. You're still assessing them as twisted, sick individuals simply because you don't agree with their sexual preferences, and despite said preferences being acted out in a fantasy cartoon book or program.

This kind of reminds me of a National Geographic Channel program called Taboo which highlights fetishes that (most) people consider abnormal or just plain sick. Two memorable episodes featured a Japanese crossplayer and a US furry. In both episodes, these people seemed absolutely normal; They weren't running around their respective communities trying to force others to join them for a wild night, molesting children, eating human flesh, etc. They were just dressing up as they felt most comfortable.

I see nothing wrong with either individual, nor do I have a problem with people that enjoy harem/reverse harem/ecchi products. As long as they're not forcing their preferences down unwilling participants' throats, it's absolutely fine.
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poonk



Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 1374
Location: Shelving with Dojo

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:31 pm Reply with quote
Cutiebunny wrote:
This kind of reminds me of a National Geographic Channel program called Taboo which highlights fetishes that (most) people consider abnormal or just plain sick. Two memorable episodes featured a Japanese crossplayer and a US furry.
Really, they featured crossplay as a taboo? Must've been running out of topics for the show. Laughing
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Asterisk-CGY



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:59 pm Reply with quote
TIL what misandry was.
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Sunday Silence



Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 2047

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:09 pm Reply with quote
poonk wrote:
Cutiebunny wrote:
This kind of reminds me of a National Geographic Channel program called Taboo which highlights fetishes that (most) people consider abnormal or just plain sick. Two memorable episodes featured a Japanese crossplayer and a US furry.
Really, they featured crossplay as a taboo? Must've been running out of topics for the show. Laughing


They still have petplay and Zentai episode segments coming up. And this Sundays show deals with a Superman collector that wants to BE Superman.....literally.
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Sewingrose



Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Posts: 512

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:13 pm Reply with quote
Cutiebunny wrote:
dtm42 wrote:

But the implication always exists that if something is disgusting then in the beholder's eyes it reflects negatively on those who like it. Even if they don't say that they look down on the other person, even if they strenuously deny it, the implication - heck, the expectation - is still there that they do.


Pretty much this. You're still assessing them as twisted, sick individuals simply because you don't agree with their sexual preferences, and despite said preferences being acted out in a fantasy cartoon book or program.

This kind of reminds me of a National Geographic Channel program called Taboo which highlights fetishes that (most) people consider abnormal or just plain sick. Two memorable episodes featured a Japanese crossplayer and a US furry. In both episodes, these people seemed absolutely normal; They weren't running around their respective communities trying to force others to join them for a wild night, molesting children, eating human flesh, etc. They were just dressing up as they felt most comfortable.

I see nothing wrong with either individual, nor do I have a problem with people that enjoy harem/reverse harem/ecchi products. As long as they're not forcing their preferences down unwilling participants' throats, it's absolutely fine.


Not necessarily. I will admit there is a tendency for some people to judge a person based upon a fetish, but most people don't. Or at least most people on an anime forum aren't exactly going to call you horrible names because you like lolicon/rape/whatever type of genre, they will probably say it is not for them.
You have your complete and total right to love the manga/show/series to your hearts content, and scream to the heaven's how amazingly well done the art is, or how the writing is phenomenal.
I have the complete right to dismiss said series as disgusting, and talk about how I can't get around the rape scenes or the incessant panty shots.
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Jedi Master



Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 372

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:15 pm Reply with quote
Note to self: Never talk to The Answerman. Ever.

Also...

I regret missing every Anime Expo that ever occurred prior to my first attendance at Anime Expo. Cool

Also...

Most of these Limited Editions lack a dub. So I save a lot of money.
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amagee



Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Posts: 214
Location: Orlando, FL

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:02 am Reply with quote
Give me some credit Answerman. Oodles of my time spent in my anthropology classes was spent watching recording of people doing things. I guess my description of it was more akin to sociology specifically but anthropology is such an umbrella term that it works here. Very Happy
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