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Hey, Answerman! - Character Arc de Triumph


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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3458
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:09 pm Reply with quote
enurtsol wrote:
Sewingrose wrote:
Bob from Accounting wrote:
Cutiebunny wrote:
(because in most of these stories, it is a rather consensual rape)


Um...


Dear God I missed that earlier, what the hell.


That rape is just surprise sex, like Scarlett O'Hara. Laughing


Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn~
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 10375

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:14 pm Reply with quote
Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:
enurtsol wrote:
Sewingrose wrote:
Bob from Accounting wrote:
Cutiebunny wrote:
(because in most of these stories, it is a rather consensual rape)


Um...


Dear God I missed that earlier, what the hell.


That rape is just surprise sex, like Scarlett O'Hara. Laughing


Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn~


Ah, someone who remembers the classics. Laughing
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Sewingrose



Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Posts: 512

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:22 pm Reply with quote
Cutiebunny wrote:
You don't read much yaoi, do you?

In most stories, the uke will start off with a half-arsed "Oh, we can't do this" protest and then get totally into it. Rarely do you ever see the uke actually make a serious attempt at self defense.

Had it been a real life situation with an unwilling subject, the victim would have put up a fight, or ran away, pulled out his phone and called the pollice, etc. But in the majority of uke/seme relationships, while there is some reluctance at first, most pairings are consensual.


Okay lot's of unfunny here about rape, sorry ya'll but it needs to be said:

First: Rape is rape is rape is rape. If you (general you, not Cutiebunny in particular) not start having sex with someone without their consent, especially after they've told you to stop, congratulations, you're a rapist! (Exceptions for role-playing rape between couples with pre-established desires for such).

Second: Don't tell real life people how they should have reacted to their rape. Many believe that their rapist will do them harm, besides raping them, if they try to runaway or anything of the sort.
Also, sometimes the rapist intentionally makes sex pleasurable for the victim, in fact that often leads to hefty emotional issues for the victim mistakenly believing they "asked for it".

Third: You are in wrong in guessing I don't read yaoi/BL, I do. And I can say the rape is far, far to common in the genre. Guess it's a good thing I go out of my way to avoid those stories. But if the victim never consented, then the seme is still a rapist, and that sex was never consensual.

Forth: There is of course the obligatory, fantasies written to be read are not at all comparable to events in real life. Someone having a rape kink and getting off to BL manga with lots of the raping in it does not make them a bad person in any stretch of the imagination.

Now let's get back to the Gone with the Wind references, that's actually funny.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5085

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:35 pm Reply with quote
What Sewingrose said. All of it. Times 10
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Cutiebunny



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:09 pm Reply with quote
Sewingrose wrote:
Second: Don't tell real life people how they should have reacted to their rape. Many believe that their rapist will do them harm, besides raping them, if they try to runaway or anything of the sort.
Also, sometimes the rapist intentionally makes sex pleasurable for the victim, in fact that often leads to hefty emotional issues for the victim mistakenly believing they "asked for it".

Third: You are in wrong in guessing I don't read yaoi/BL, I do. And I can say the rape is far, far to common in the genre. Guess it's a good thing I go out of my way to avoid those stories. But if the victim never consented, then the seme is still a rapist, and that sex was never consensual.



I think you're internalizing this and taking it far too seriously. What we're talking about is fantasies that people read about in manga/stories or watch on their TV or pc. And in those stories, the uke hardly ever puts up a fight. While I'm sure they're out there, I've yet to see a story where a seme walks down the street, finds a hot uke, jumps on him, holds a loaded gun to the uke's temple and demands sex. Those stories are far more rare that the standard "uke protests until certain point where uke finds it pleasurable" because that's what sells. Most people don't enjoy reading BL/Yaoi only to be bombarded by imagery where the uke is being severly violated to the point of long term bodily harm occurring. There has to be some sort of consent involved, whether stated or implied, for most people to feel comfortable with this genre. Otherwise, it makes the reader feel immoral due to internalization of the storyline.

Now, let me open the can of ugly and say that, IMO, many cases of rape can be prevented if people took a little more time to think about their choices prior to making them. Walking into a very dangerous area, at night, alone and wearing revealing clothing is a great way to make yourself a target. Texting/Talking on your phone and not paying attention to your surroundings, regardless of the time of day or location, is also a great way to invite tragedy (ie. traffic accidents due to texting/talking on the phone). Going to nightclubs and not watching your drink is also a super way to invite problems. Once again, this will not prevent all possible danger from occuring, but being wise about your choices and not being in the wrong place at the wrong time is a great preventative measure. And, once again, I'm not justifying the rape. I'm simply saying that if people were more careful, a lot of these instances would not occur.

If you've ever taken a self defense course, you'd know that there are generally multiple chances that anyone has to escape from a situation prior to grevious bodily injury occuring. Rarely does someone jump out from a bush with a knife, mortally wound you, and then drag you back into said bush for necrophilia time. No. There are usually multiple chances that any potential victim has to get away from the situation. And while this knowledge will not protect you 100% of the time and prevent rape 100% of the time (especially as most rape does occur with persons the victim knows), in many cases, bodily injury, rape and death can be prevented. I personally feel that everyone, regardless of gender or sexuality, should take a self defense course.

I don't think anyone on this thread is arguing that real life rape is kosher. I think that most adults can come to that agreement. What I, and others are saying, is that there is a large segment of the population that enjoys watching the concept acted out in the safety of drawn images or porn. And I think that as long as those watching it aren't rushing to try to fabricate these themes with non consenting individuals, there's nothing wrong with their preferences.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4220

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:21 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Now, let me open the can of ugly and say that, IMO, many cases of rape can be prevented if people took a little more time to think about their choices prior to making them. Walking into a very dangerous area, at night, alone and wearing revealing clothing is a great way to make yourself a target.


Damn, woman, at least try to hide your sickening misogyny.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5085

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:26 pm Reply with quote
Cutiebunny wrote:

Now, let me open the can of ugly and say that, IMO, many cases of rape can be prevented if people took a little more time to think about their choices prior to making them.


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Sewingrose



Joined: 11 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:26 pm Reply with quote
Cutiebunny wrote:
Sewingrose wrote:
Second: Don't tell real life people how they should have reacted to their rape. Many believe that their rapist will do them harm, besides raping them, if they try to runaway or anything of the sort.
Also, sometimes the rapist intentionally makes sex pleasurable for the victim, in fact that often leads to hefty emotional issues for the victim mistakenly believing they "asked for it".

Third: You are in wrong in guessing I don't read yaoi/BL, I do. And I can say the rape is far, far to common in the genre. Guess it's a good thing I go out of my way to avoid those stories. But if the victim never consented, then the seme is still a rapist, and that sex was never consensual.



I think you're internalizing this and taking it far too seriously. What we're talking about is fantasies that people read about in manga/stories or watch on their TV or pc. And in those stories, the uke hardly ever puts up a fight. While I'm sure they're out there, I've yet to see a story where a seme walks down the street, finds a hot uke, jumps on him, holds a loaded gun to the uke's temple and demands sex. Those stories are far more rare that the standard "uke protests until certain point where uke finds it pleasurable" because that's what sells. Most people don't enjoy reading BL/Yaoi only to be bombarded by imagery where the uke is being severly violated to the point of long term bodily harm occurring. There has to be some sort of consent involved, whether stated or implied, for most people to feel comfortable with this genre. Otherwise, it makes the reader feel immoral due to internalization of the storyline.

And other words that I am not going to touch.


Rape is rarely the violent stranger with a gun cliche, in real life or BL manga, what it is mostly someone taking advantage of another person emotionally and physically during the assault.

I know the type of stories you are referring to, and as I said myself and others know those stories feature rape, and aren't kidding ourselves that it's consensual. Can it still be enjoyable for someone to read? Hell yeah, and I'm not saying anything negative about the people who are reading it.

By the way, the Uke character in this scenario finding the sex pleasurable, does not consensual make.

And you know what I personally believe could cut down on the number of incidents of rape in real life? Men (and this is mainly a men thing, though women can and have been rapist with both female and male victims, and that is equally as heinous), learning that if someone says no they mean no. That taking advantage of a friend when she is mentally compromised by alcohol or the like is NOT okay, and that they are raping her. One in six women and one in 33 men in the United States will be victims of rape in their lifetimes. That is not the fault of the victims, that is the fault of the scumbags who think that it is remotely acceptable to have sex with someone without their consent.
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writerpatrick



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:31 pm Reply with quote
Sexism towards men exists. Just consider male flight attendants or male nurses. And have you ever tried to get a job as a maid?
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:46 pm Reply with quote
writerpatrick wrote:
Sexism towards men exists. Just consider male flight attendants or male nurses. And have you ever tried to get a job as a maid?


Sure, it exists, but sexism against women is on an entirely different level.
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Surrender Artist
SubscriberSubscriber


Joined: 01 May 2011
Posts: 2981
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:50 pm Reply with quote
Oh, Answerman, you've done it again, you scamp.

writerpatrick wrote:
Sexism towards men exists. Just consider male flight attendants or male nurses. And have you ever tried to get a job as a maid?


Well sure, but that's a byproduct of sexism against women and the concomitant stigmatization of those jobs. What people complain about to justify the term misandry are probably also such byproducts. You could peg Brian for being glib, but as it's really used, misandry seldom, if ever, serves a genuine purpose. Even though misandry exists in some technical or pedantic sense, but when dealing with the reality of what most people who use that word want to mean, it's usually seems like arrant nonsense. When I see it, it's usually more a diversionary tactic and distraction to build false equivalences and try to rationalize, if not justify, sexism or misogyny. Complaining about misandry is far more a psychological reflex and rhetorical tactic than attempt to draw attention to a problem.
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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3458
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:21 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
writerpatrick wrote:
Sexism towards men exists. Just consider male flight attendants or male nurses. And have you ever tried to get a job as a maid?


Sure, it exists, but sexism against women is on an entirely different level.


I will flat out say this and take shit for it, either we are all equal as human beings or not. There shouldn't be special treatment for people based on religion, race, gender etc nor should any agenda both ways. Saying sexism is on different levels is b.s. because it's all sexism and needs to stop. You know what I hate ads with beefy guys in their underwear, ripped abs showing off hanes newest line as much as I hate Victoria secret showing off a hourglass built woman in lingerie.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5085

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:43 pm Reply with quote
Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:

I will flat out say this and take shit for it, either we are all equal as human beings or not. There shouldn't be special treatment for people based on religion, race, gender etc nor should any agenda both ways. Saying sexism is on different levels is b.s. because it's all sexism and needs to stop. You know what I hate ads with beefy guys in their underwear, ripped abs showing off hanes newest line as much as I hate Victoria secret showing off a hourglass built woman in lingerie.


Except we aren't all actually treated equal.

Also, why do you hate both of those things? That seems to be entirely missing the point here.
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Cutiebunny



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 429

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:50 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
image


Yays, a troll.

Sewingrose wrote:

By the way, the Uke character in this scenario finding the sex pleasurable, does not consensual make.


I agree, but the uke's enjoyment factor is what makes the difference and is the selling point. People would not buy BL/Yaoi as much if there wasn't, albeit implied, an ounce of consent.

I think you can agree with me that, at least initially, most uke characters in BLs do not voice their consent. It's only after the initial deed that, for whatever reason, they either enjoyed it, or have fallen in love with the seme, etc.


Quote:
And you know what I personally believe could cut down on the number of incidents of rape in real life? Men (and this is mainly a men thing, though women can and have been rapist with both female and male victims, and that is equally as heinous), learning that if someone says no they mean no. That taking advantage of a friend when she is mentally compromised by alcohol or the like is NOT okay, and that they are raping her. One in six women and one in 33 men in the United States will be victims of rape in their lifetimes. That is not the fault of the victims, that is the fault of the scumbags who think that it is remotely acceptable to have sex with someone without their consent.


It takes two to tango.

I'm not saying that the rapist is innocent or that she/ he was forced to do it because of how the woman/man looked, dressed, acted (as is a crutch argument used in many Arab nations). I don't think any adult would say that a rapist is innocent. What I'm saying is that, as an adult, you need to own up to your actions and take responsibility. If you're in a club and fail to monitor your own drink, that is YOUR fault. Unless you live in a bubble, you can't be that naive to think that date rape drugs do not exist and will not be used. Yes, it's sad that someone decided to take advantage of you, but, it's also your fault for not being more observant of the situation. Same thing with alcohol - You need to be aware of what your limit is when it comes to alcohol consumption. No one is forcing you to drink 21 shots of whatever at your 21st birthday - that is a choice that you make. If you can't handle 21 shots, you don't drink 21 shots. Will your friends laugh at you? Maybe. They're probably all drunk too. But will you be able to recall what occurred last night and without any regrets? If you stay within your limit, hopefully.

People who rape because they prey on others in any state are bad and they should be punished for that. Regardless of the situation, no human has the right to violate another. But I also think that adults who irresponsibly put themselves in situations where they are likely to be compromised also need to realize the dangers around them and take responsibility for whatever poor choices they make (note: This does not apply to situations where one's life is threatened if they don't comply with the criminal).
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Sunday Silence



Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 2047

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:52 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Oh please.

First of all, the two previous points I made are indeed valid, even if you conveniently ignore them.

Secondly, I wouldn't have made such a glaring error and then insulted everyone who called me out on it by referring to them as dumb.

You want to speak to me about communication, Zac? Go talk to your columnist first, he needs it more.


Just let it be. Either way, no side wins. Neither you nor the staff at ANN.

writerpatrick wrote:
Sexism towards men exists. Just consider male flight attendants or male nurses. And have you ever tried to get a job as a maid?


Cause Male cleaners are called Butlers and Janitors?

Fencedude5609 wrote:
Cutiebunny wrote:

Now, let me open the can of ugly and say that, IMO, many cases of rape can be prevented if people took a little more time to think about their choices prior to making them.




I dunno, in some cases, it could be relevant, but then again, with rape in general, it brings out such strong emotions, there is no way in hell even rational thinking can eek out a chance to see itself.
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