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End of evangelion explanation


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abunai
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Joined: 05 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 3:49 am Reply with quote
{Insert appropriate blasphemous or obscene profanity here}, this is truly the most revolting thing I've seen in years.

What's next? SaiKano as a light comedy? Hotaru no Haka retold in funny-animal style?

- abunai
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animedork2075



Joined: 25 Nov 2004
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Location: A dark room in California
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:27 am Reply with quote
all you need to know is shinji is nuts as the title emplies its the end. As screwed up as it may seem it all boils down to that boys decisions. Its as simple as can be. People overcomplicate it if you ask me. we refuse to belive that its just a messed up ending but when you watch it a few times, you notice a pattern... Its the same! try to take it on the simple side Shinji must make a decision either a or b his choice decides the outcome of the end. And also to those who are wondering rumor is there is a platnum edition series coming out wich has improved sound and picture quality and a directors cut which has deleated scenes and improved comentary (subed). At any rate its only rumor about the tv series so I can't guarintee it.
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the_soultaker



Joined: 25 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:42 am Reply with quote
Regardless of the explanation(s) the ending was a letdown,to such a degree that Anano recieved death threats. Many of the show's fans were not shy when expressing their dismay and disgust with the series' original ending.so as a result we have EOE which intentions were to piss those same fans off even further.

It's a good 90+ minutes, but a more conventional ending is desired.
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animedork2075



Joined: 25 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:09 am Reply with quote
the_soultaker wrote:
Regardless of the explanation(s) the ending was a letdown,to such a degree that Anano recieved death threats. Many of the show's fans were not shy when expressing their dismay and disgust with the series' original ending.so as a result we have EOE which intentions were to piss those same fans off even further.

It's a good 90+ minutes, but a more conventional ending is desired.

absolutely
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jfrog



Joined: 21 May 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:18 pm Reply with quote
abunai wrote:
{Insert appropriate blasphemous or obscene profanity here}, this is truly the most revolting thing I've seen in years.

What's next? SaiKano as a light comedy? Hotaru no Haka retold in funny-animal style?

- abunai


Have you not seen the Stripping Instrumentality Project? GAINAX letting you play strip mah-jong with Evangelion characters?

I've rewatched EoE recently and have decided that it's a load of crap. I loved the first scene - Shinji masturbating over Asuka's body was one of the most powerful images I've seen in a movie (outside of Salo and Irreversible, anyways). There were also some nice action sequences in Air, and the final scene was wonderfully Jodorowsky-esque. But the middle...dear God. It's like a bad student film. Even though the final two episodes completely abandon the narrative, at least there Anno says what he wants to say in a relatively straightforward manner, instead of forcing us to watch Shinji destroy a sand castle for what feels like twenty minutes.

Evangelion's a huge mess anyways, and Anno's done much better work elsewhere (such as His and Her Cirumstances or Love and Pop).
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Neilworms



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:13 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Insert appropriate blasphemous or obscene profanity here}, this is truly the most revolting thing I've seen in years.

What's next? SaiKano as a light comedy? Hotaru no Haka retold in funny-animal style?

- abunai


Nah, they are just making money off of the otaku who hated the second half of evangelion and the end of eva but loved the first half :P.

I'd have to agree with Jfrog about End of Eva as a film, its a mess.

The mess is a result of something far more interesting though, a result of anno getting disillusioned with otakudom. Essentially he ripped the TV show to shreads (and more so with the film) because he hated the reaction fans gave to his show. He also openly broke against what the otaku (in Japan) desire, the whole think was a statement of frustration at a culture that he was disillusioned by. There is much more to this, take a gander at some reasearch I've been doing

Sources: Hiroki Azuma a Doctor of Philosophy with an emphasis on Post-Modernism wrote this excellent and exaustive piece talking about Anno in relation to otaku along with other anime directors here.

Also there is an interview with Hideaki Anno that is refrenced by here.

Further proof of anno's disillusionment here and another comment by anno in this article.
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Cloe
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:33 pm Reply with quote
the_soultaker wrote:
Regardless of the explanation(s) the ending was a letdown,to such a degree that Anano recieved death threats. Many of the show's fans were not shy when expressing their dismay and disgust with the series' original ending.so as a result we have EOE which intentions were to piss those same fans off even further.

It's a good 90+ minutes, but a more conventional ending is desired.


My eyes must be deceiving me... a more... conventional ending? Excuse me if I'm wrong, but don't a great deal of anime fans like anime because of the complexity of the storytelling?

I apologize, but I'm afraid I have to disagree 100%. The original series ending was absolutely brilliant and made daring choices that I've NEVER seen in other commercial animation. I commend Anno for attempting to reach for something greater than just a "conventional ending." He knew that some people would hate it, but he made it anyway. That's innovation. Not everyone will like it. When Ottorino Respighi debuted his strange and amazing symphony "Pines of Rome" in 1917, a time when opera ruled all in Italy, people hated it. When Georges Braque and Pablo Picasso, both classically trained painters, first introduced Cubism, their paintings were met by disappointment and even horror from their colleagues. Innovation will always be initially met with disdain, I guess.

Oh, and Baka..., I would also consult Susan Napier's book Anime from Akira to Princess Mononoke for a very insightful and intelligent Evangelion analysis. This book is really one of the most thoughtful, well-written anime studies I think I've ever read.
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Glory Questor



Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 456
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:46 pm Reply with quote
First, as said many times, spoiler[everyone knows that this whole thing is really in Shinji's head. The scenes of Modern Day Japan are reality -- he's living in a fantasy world he created. This jibes with both the original series ending and the End of Eva ending as well.]

Having said that:

Pepperidge wrote:
kusanagi-sama wrote:
Try watching it with the commentary track. That helps some, it did for me.


No it doesn't. Those people don't know what the hell they're talking about. spoiler[It's ASUKA in the end... NO ONE ELSE.]


First off, spoiler[I agree with the amalgam theory -- That isn't Asuka in the end, but all three of them as one. There is evidence to this: Asuka's body, Rei's bandages, and Misato's brown eyes (freeze-frame the part where we see her as Shinji chokes her, and you can she that her blue eyes have become brown eyes!).

Be reminded of the fact that all of this is in Shinji's head, and all three of the women used to be separate people in his dream (or his interpretation of the people around him, if you follow the original ending). All three of them are important to him, but he wishes for a world where everyone was all one. A world where he thought he would be happy, with no distinctions, no separate souls. Rei grants this wish, and we see everything break down -- we see the real world, and then we see the three Japanese VAs from the front, followed by Rei, Misato, and Asuka from the back.

Back in dream-land, when Shinji mentions to Rei that this isn't the world he wanted, Rei replies that it will be up to each soul as to whether or not they want to remain separate beings. In the end, the souls (the green crosses) move off to the heavens, Shinji remains separate of himself, and Asuka/Rei/Misato is with him as well on the borders of an LCL sea (fallout from the Egg of Lilith).

Two possibilites now exist: Either the world returned to the way it was (which it could not have, if the souls did leave Earth), or they are the Adam and Eve of a new Earth.]


Whatever. EVA: R has a much better adaptaton of the End of Eva, anyway.
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animedork2075



Joined: 25 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:39 am Reply with quote
Cloe Interesting input we all have mixed emotions however have you thought about the possability that it may have ended that way due to lack of funding or possibly eavin as hard as it is to think interest?
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ReIN-Karnated@042



Joined: 25 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:41 am Reply with quote
Quote:
I apologize, but I'm afraid I have to disagree 100%.


Razz Cloe!! Cloe!! our champion Very Happy I agree with you 100%...
Just one Question is the original ending of EVA series excluding the directors cut or including the directors cut?

Anyway, which ever ending it was, it was still brilliant because it was different and left you thinking about a number of possibilities in the way that series could actually continue, develope further then spoiler[Congratulating Shinji at the End (Ep.26)]

And for animedork2075, you are not seeing the bigger picture and thinking outside the box because everyone that has tried to put in some input about the Meaning of Evangalion not the summary as a critic! Mad
For the people that gave spiritual and emotional Meaning to the series and movie, probably enjoyed the twisted events through-out EVA and this therefore tells us that the people that created EVA completed there task in making Anime Arrow Whatever of the circumstances that followed afterwards Exclamation
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the_soultaker



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:39 am Reply with quote
Feel free to disagree as you wish Cloe,It's your god given right to do so. but i for one was still disapointed in both endings (especially EOE's which i was refering to in the first place.) and yes although i admire various Anime movies and series for it's storytelling, to me this one didn't quite gel with me. (And to think, that the Soultaker series was mindboggling.. Confused )*AHEM* Nice Mikaru avatar though. Razz The EOE/NGE endings can be a bit out there just like the Metal Gear Solid 2's ending,some may understand it full well and there are others who would mutter..WTF?!?
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Cloe
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:49 pm Reply with quote
the_soultaker wrote:
Feel free to disagree as you wish Cloe,It's your god given right to do so. but i for one was still disapointed in both endings (especially EOE's which i was refering to in the first place.) and yes although i admire various Anime movies and series for it's storytelling, to me this one didn't quite gel with me. (And to think, that the Soultaker series was mindboggling.. Confused )*AHEM* Nice Mikaru avatar though. Razz The EOE/NGE endings can be a bit out there just like the Metal Gear Solid 2's ending,some may understand it full well and there are others who would mutter..WTF?!?


I'm completely fine if you feel that way. Smile I'm so glad that there are people who are fine with agreeing to disagree, instead of bickering on and on and leading to all kinds of sore feelings. As for animedork's question, well, to be honest, you may be right. I don't know about the financial situation at Gainax when Eva was finished up, and Anno is notorious for cutting corners. But what a way to solve their problem! (If it was financial.) I don't think I've ever been so abruptly startled by an ending of a series since Eva. That's what makes it great, for me. I just love the depth of it.
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kamiboy



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
Posts: 570
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:46 pm Reply with quote
If you ignore all the random weird imagery, psychobabble 101 and religious mumbo jumbo then the end of the series and movies are pretty straightforward.

In the series we don't see how the human instrumentality project gets started. We only see what results it has on the mind of one single individual, Shinji Ikari, among the billions that go trough it. Instrumentality starts for Shinji by Shinji closing himself off into the confines of an imaginary space of his own construct taking the shape of a school auditory. I personally don't believe that the school auditorium being chosen as the image of the closed space has any significance. It is simply an image that Anno seems to like for some reason since he uses it again in Kare Kano and other places.

Being in the isolated prison of his own making Shinji is then slowly complemented and is convinced by the voices around him that it would be better if he were not isolated but with everyone else. In the end Shinji is fully complemented and his prison breaks like shards of glass and outside he is met by everyone congratulating him on just having finished being complemented.

In the movie Rei/Lillith places the fate of the world in the hands of Shinji and he wishes for some fuckedup world where individuals don't exist and everyone is in a state of artificial ecstasy or happiness. He then looking at what he has created decides that he doesn't like it and that things were better before even if they were not exactly perfect. That last scene with Asuka is something that Anno created to basically fudge with people’s minds. If it truly did have any deep true meaning then short of replacing the brains inside the MAGI with Anno’s and having it chew on the answer won't reveal what it is.

Every person with a functioning brain can create something that only makes sense to him or her because of the way his or her brains works. Artistic people often create things whose true meaning are only apparent to them and will be almost impossible for other people to figure out. Most of the time these people aren't even aware that they are doing this or think that because something makes sense to them then anyone should be able to figure it out if they think about it hard enough. Sometimes when these people are told by others that what they made is too ambiguous or doesn’t make sense they get offended and tell people that it is too bad if they can't figure it out. Hideaki Anno has been quoted to say the exact same thing about Evangelion. As an example lets pretend I draw a triangle on a piece of paper and call it a artistic interpretation of the feelings consuming my every being. To most people it will just be a drawing of a triangle and some other people will say that it makes sense to them but it prolly doesn’t make sense in the same way that it does to me. No one else will look at the triangle and get the exact same thing out of it as me because the inner working of each mind is unique that way. Artistic interpretation and symbolism is not something substantial because it is not founded in logic like something like mathematic is. If I had written 2 + 2 = 4 every one with basic knowledge of math would understand its meaning.

In the end the best anyone other that the creator can do is to make their own interpretation, which is almost definitely different than what the creator had in mind. Figuring out if your interpretation is valid even if it is different than the original is something everyone has to decide for him or herself. In my case I don't view my interpretation to be valid if it is not the original, which is why I hate ambiguity in all its forms. Then again some people actually enjoy making their own interpretation and enjoy works that have ambiguity built in them. But hell if I don’t like Evangelion despite its ambiguity since it has lots of different things going for it.

Perhaps there is hope yet for those who were unsatisfied by the ambiguity of Evangelion as Yoshiyuki Sadamoto's interpretation of Evangelion in the manga is, so far, much better than Anno's. Sadamoto has managed to make the storyline and the fleshing out of certain characters much better by making sometimes big and sometimes subtle changes. I love how something as subtle as Ayanami inviting Shinji in for tea in her apartment makes such a huge difference in her character from the anime. Shinji is a lot less wimpy, Asuka is lot less bitchy, Ayanami is certainly a lot less robot like in her behaviour and we get to know more about Kaji and his motivations.

How Sadamoto chooses to end things in the coming volumes remains to be seen but it is evident that the storyline in Evangelion has definitely benefited from being remade in a much larger time frame than the one year that the Anime had to work with. Sadamoto is in my opinion also a better storyteller than Anno who is more of an artist. I recommend the manga to any Eva fan.
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kamiboy



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 11:27 am Reply with quote
imaginary_num6er wrote:
Gendo's instrumentality as shown from quotes from the T.V. episode (which I plan to discuss another time) is more of a transcendence of man to a greater being, while SEELE's instrumentality project is on man's repayment of original sin and achieving nirvana.


I, at least, would be very interested in theories about the differences between Gendo and SELEE's Instrumentality. I have always wondered what the differences were that let to them going against each other in End of Evangelion.
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Kazuki-san



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 1:08 am Reply with quote
kamiboy wrote:

I, at least, would be very interested in theories about the differences between Gendo and SELEE's Instrumentality. I have always wondered what the differences were that let to them going against each other in End of Evangelion.


Well, to actually describe the differences and the reasons for them coming out, would take a rather large response, which I will be happy to give if you would like.

Basically, it comes down to SELEE wants to unite all of humanity into one being, which would then become like a god. Gendo only cares about reuniting with Yui, which just so happens can only be acheived by using the same basic plan as SELEE. The one who begins Instrumentality can control it. SELEE, using Kaworou, would have their plan realized. Gendo using Rei would have his plan realized.

That is the most basic of explanations, but as I said, I will go into more detail if you like.
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