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End of evangelion explanation


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kamiboy



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
Posts: 570
Location: CA
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:18 pm Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:
Basically, it comes down to SELEE wants to unite all of humanity into one being, which would then become like a god. Gendo only cares about reuniting with Yui, which just so happens can only be acheived by using the same basic plan as SELEE. The one who begins Instrumentality can control it. SELEE, using Kaworou, would have their plan realized. Gendo using Rei would have his plan realized.

That is the most basic of explanations, but as I said, I will go into more detail if you like.


I already realise the fact that Gendo only wants to be reunited with Yui and SELEE wants to merge all humans into a godlike ball ‘o souls. What I don't realise is why this causes such a gap between them to trigger the attack on NERVE. It seems, to me at least, that they could have had both so why not?

That last conversation between Gendo and Kiel should have some hints as to what the difference was but it eludes me. Gendo says that nothing comes from death and Kiel says that death is what he (Gendo) deserves.

Maybe Gendo didn't want Instrumentality after all or at least wanted a different version of it and I would like to know what that version was. Though I doubt that there are enough hints in the show to lead me to a clear conclusion or even if the creators had even given this issue any thought.

If you get into details then most explanations starts to fall apart, which leads me to think that maybe there was no explanation to begin with. If SELEE wanted to control Instrumentality with Kaworu then why did they send him to be killed? In the show at least it seems that SELEE sent him there with the intent of him being killed by NERVE. Why they didn't just do it themselves is beyond me but if they had then the creators would have been an episode short.

You could argue that SELEE did use Kuwaru in the movie but they were just his clones I doubt they had control over his soul anymore. It also seemed that SELLE, even after they got the Lance back, still didn't have much control over Instrumentality beyond starting the mother up and watching what happen.

I don’t think that the creators gave such issues as continuity and how thing they came up with now would tie in with the overall plot much importance. Basically I think that if they had a really great idea for the current episode then they would put it in even if would mess up the story or create plot holes. After all it was suppose to be mysterious show and no one is suppose to understand everything in those kinds of stories. The lack of information would do great job of camouflaging any mistakes they made. I guess they never thought that people would still be discussing 10 years after its creation.

So in short I have many unresolved questions about the Instrumentiality and other areas of the show but I suspect that most of them are due to bad writing, poor planning and plot holes on behalf of the creators.

But do go ahead and write your long reply, as I am interested in reading and commenting on it.
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:22 pm Reply with quote
Sorry it took so long to respond, but I was doing some research to make sure I could give a decent answer. Since Eva uses many religions for the story, the answer requires bits of many religions as well. I am omitting references to these religions, simply because it would a lot of information, but I can attempt to put them in if it is confusing.

First off, let's go over the Egg of Lillith and the Egg of Adam. The eggs also contain the Hall of Gaffe. The Hall of Gaffe is where unborn souls are stored/kept. The Egg of Lillith holds the souls of humans, and the Egg of Adam holds those of the angels. During second impact, the Hall of Gaffe contained in Adam's egg produced at least one angel, Kawouru. Whether the other 16 where already born or not is not clear. Conversely, it can be assumed that at the same time, the Eva pilots where also "released" from the Hall of Gaffe contained in Lillith's egg.

It is also necessary to go over the ideas of original sin. The idea that after Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge, humans were no longer born without sin, and as such could never be one with God again. Adam and Eve were then cast out of the garden of eden (Egg of Lillith), and a guard of cherubim (angels) was placed to protect the way to the tree of life. With both the fruit of knowledge and the fruit of life, man would be like god.

SEELE's plan is to rid the world of sin (original and otherwise) by reverting man back into Lillith's egg and the Hall of Gaffe. Whether at this point they intended for humans to be born again without sin or simply to remain, joined as one, in the Hall of Gaffe is unclear.

Gendo's plan is much simpler, to evolve man to give them power closer to that of a god. In this way he plans on being once again with Yui, as she too would evolve in a similar way.

SELEE's plan requires: (which is similar to the crucifixion of Jesus; these are required to wash the sins of man away)

1. The Tree of Life (one story is that the cross Jesus was crucified on was made from the tree of life)

2. 12 Disciples as those that followed Jesus (a.k.a. the Eva series. 13 total Eva units - Eva unit 1 = 12 disciples)

3. The Spear of Longinus (used to pierce Jesus' side to ensure he was dead)

Gendo's plan requires:
1.The Fruit of Life, which the angels hold, in order to combine it with the Fruit of Knowledge, which we hold, in order to become like a god.

2. The Tree of Life (I forgot to note that the tree is actually the Inverted Tree of Life, the path to god)

The reason that Gendo uses the Spear of Longinus when he does, is so that SELEE cannot invoke their plan.

Was Kawouru sent to NERV to die? On reflection, it is probably true. In order for SELEE to invoke the Tree of Life, they must first defeat the angels guarding the tree. (it is interesting to note, that the Japanese word used for the angels actually translates to something like prophet, but Gainax insisted that in the English version, the word be changed to angel)

Gendo's plan is to use Rei (whose soul is none other than Lillith's) to invoke his plan. In his plan, he would join with Rei and Adam, to become like a god. Adam, holding the Fruit of Life, and himself, holding the Fruit of Knowledge.

Because SELEE decides to send the Eva series and directly assault NERV, they are ultimately successful in their plan of ridding the world of original sin. Shinji/Eva 1 call to Rei/Lillith as they are being sacrificed on the tree of life. (Eva Unit 1, holding both the Fruit of Knowledge, Shinji; and the Fruit of Life, the S2 engine it ate.) She rejects Gendo's plan and merges back with the rest of her body, goes to Shinji, and puts the future of humanity in his hands. He, of course, decides to allow the AT field to be put back in place, and is returned, along with Asuka, to earth.

From here everything really gets into speculation.. well .. moreso into it.

Either:

1. Shinji and Asuka are the first to return to having an AT field, and others will follow that have the will to live..

..or..

2. Shinji and Asuka have become the new Adam and Eve, who repopulate the earth and usher in the new era of humanity. (not a longshot, considering that there is now a sea of LCL, which could perhaps mean that the Hall of Gaffe is now full of unborn souls.)

In any case, I hope I have explained everything well enough. It is confusing, since it borrows from many religions, and in a way contradicts itself on the Christianity front, by referring to Adam as both man and god.
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animedork2075



Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 43
Location: A dark room in California
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:00 am Reply with quote
[quote="ReIN-Karnated@042"][quote]
And for [b]animedork2075
, you are not seeing the bigger picture and thinking outside the box because everyone that has tried to put in some input about the Meaning of Evangalion not the summary as a critic!

Ok i'm willing to admit that you are right about that without explination it would come off that way but realistically I have tried to see it that way and and the there is no relavency to it speritually (do to lack of biblical mecha apocalypse),just referances however as for interests in the twists you have a good point. There are many people I would recomend eva to and others I wouldn't.One thing is for sure I would never criticize anyone who is into it. Just my point is that it may be people are taking this a little far looking for some deep meaning, i'm sorry if i'm offending someone just I was one of those people who was way into the show just disapointed in the ending. Sorry if I have upset anyone in any way.
animedork2075
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:54 pm Reply with quote
animedork2075 wrote:
Just my point is that it may be people are taking this a little far looking for some deep meaning, i'm sorry


The "deep" meaning of the show seems pretty simple to me, our greatest enemy is ourselves.

While it's true there is nothing but references in regards to spiritual and religious symbolism, they are all very well though out, and not simply just, for instance, a cross thrown in there, just because.
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kamiboy



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
Posts: 570
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 7:18 pm Reply with quote
First of all let me start by saying that to give a full analyses of your theories I would have to watch the Eva series and EoE movie once again. That is something I won’t be doing for months to come since I am waiting for the full release of the Platinum edition re-release. Although it has been a few months since I last saw them and my memory is pretty weak when it comes to important details I have still seen the TV series and movie at least five times each. So I will try at the best of my abilities to confirm or debunk your theories.

Kazuki-san wrote:
First off, let's go over the Egg of Lillith and the Egg of Adam. The eggs also contain the Hall of Gaffe. The Hall of Gaffe is where unborn souls are stored/kept. The Egg of Lillith holds the souls of humans, and the Egg of Adam holds those of the angels.


The Hall of Gaffe being where unborn souls are kept is from the bible I think and is also explained in EoE so that is a given. You say that the egg of Lillith also contains the Hall of Gaffe, which I am at this point willing to accept since I would have to see EoE again to be sure.

You continue to say that there is also a Egg of Adam, which I believe is also said in EoE, and that it contains the souls of unborn angels. That is of course the next logical step if one accepts that humans souls are born from the Egg of Lillith since Lillith gave birth to man and Adam gave birth to angels. The origin of man and angels being Lillith and Adam is also something that is said in the anime by Kaworu I believe. So I will accept that also but then we come to the theory of Kaworu being borne in Adams egg during second impact. Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t that largely based on speculation with no real underlying facts? If you have anything to back this up then please write more about it as the origins of Kaworu and how SELEE came in possession of him is one of the bigger mysteries of the TV series.

I will now write some of my own thoughts on that matter:
As far as I can tell the only thing supporting your claim is the fact that in the show it is mentioned that the only thing known about Kaworu is that his birthday coincides with the second impact.

First of all if I remember correctly in the TV series the first people we see returning to Antarctica after the second impact is the official investigation team with Fuyutski and Gendo and also the mute Misato whom we see in the ships brig. I assume that this investigation team picked up Misato who is the sole surviving witness of the second impact. If Tabris had been borne during the second impact then that team would surely have encountered him during their investigation and had brought him back, which would explain how SELEE got hold of him. But this is not suggested at all in the series and besides I believe that in that case Gendo would have been much more suspicious of him when SELEE sent him as the fifth children.

Ignoring that we come to the fact that Tabris looks very much like Rei in that he is an albino with blue hair and red eyes. We know that Ayanami at least was artificially produced and prolly her being an albino is and unavoidable consequence of her production process. So Tabris suffering the same fate as her would suggest that he too was somehow artificially produced through the same process as Ayanami. This is further suggested when we see that the SELEE’s Eva series is commanded by a Kaworu dummy plug system like NERV’s Rei dummy plug system.

Next comes the issue of the soul of Tabris that you say was borne in the egg of Adam, which would be logical was it not for a couple of things in the anime. If Tabris was artificially produced then SELEE would be able to insert a soul into him just like NERV somehow inserted Lillith’s soul into Rei. It would of course be logical that if SELEE is in possession of Adams body (the embryo that Kagi brings for Gendo) like NERV is in possession of Lillith’s body then Kaworu should have the soul of Adam. This would be just a speculation based on logical conclusions, but there are actually things in the anime that corroborate it.

One of them would of course be the fact that after Rei has merged with Adam during third impact we can see Kaworu immerging from her when she splits in two, suggesting that they have become one. It is logical to assume that if her merging with Adam caused someone with the likeness of Kaworu to emerge from her then Kowaru must have had a connection to Adam which would likely be him having the soul of Adam. It of course doesn’t really make sense that the 17th angel is actually Adam since I believe it is mentioned in the anime that Adam was one of the first angels. Besides Kaworu himself says that WE angels stem from Adam and Lillim (humans) stem from Lillith. One could argue that perhaps Kaworu didn’t know the origins of his soul but Ayanami certainly seemed to know her origins. It could also be argued that the Kaworu we see during and after the third impact is actually just an image that Ayanami/Lillith creates to calm Shinji but there is no proof of this, as he seems genuine enough. It is of course also possible that Anno (or someone else) just wanted him to be there because of the fans or for some other reason. And since Anno had at that point pretty much lost all interest in the storyline of Eva and become disillusioned by its fan base it, as with many other things, was just thrown in for kicks with little regard for the consequences.

Staying on the subject of Kaworu the mystery of why he was created/brought to SELEE and why they shipped him over to NERV remains. It certainly seems that SELEE was very happy of being in possession of him since they called him their trump card. Surely if that was the case then wouldn’t they have had bigger plans for him than just sending him of to get killed? Or why didn’t they just plant a bullet between his eyes themselves? It could be argued that perhaps he was too powerfull to be killed like that and that only EVA01 was strong enough to snuff him but there is no proof. It is also possible that maybe they were keeping the last angel so they could decide the timeline for his arrival but there are no proofs of this either.

One the other hand they might not have intended for him to be killed and perhaps they were counting on him merging with Lillith. But then again I remember a line from Keel in episode 24 in which he say he is counting on Gendo using EVA01 against Tabris. This could suggest that he either wanted him to die or destroying EVA01. Certainly it is suggested in EoE that without the Lance Instrumentality can only be achieved with EVA01 and so I doubt that Keel would want it destroyed. That is unless Kaworu merging with Lillith would have had the same effect as Ayanami merging with Adam. In that case then maybe Kaworu could start Third Impact alone and that could have been the trump card SELEE was speaking of. But wouldn’t that have placed the fate of the world in the hands of an angel rather than SELEE?

Looking once again at the facts we have that SELEE was in possession of Kaworu and considered him to be their trump card and they sent him to NERV with an unknown intent. At NERV Tabris lived among humans for a while making friends with Shinji trying to understand humans better. He then took possession of an EVA with the intent of finding out Adam and merging with him and thereby destroying humans as a result. Just as he is about to achieve his goal he realises that he has been deceived or is mistaken and what he thought was Adam was in fact Lillith. He then says that life and death are the same to him and he chooses to die and leave things up to humans. The fact that he says that life and death are the same to him could suggest that he knew that he would survive third impact if Ayanami merged with Adam, which again suggest that he might have Adams soul but nothing is certain.

Kazuki-san wrote:
it can be assumed that at the same time, the Eva pilots where also "released" from the Hall of Gaffe contained in Lillith's egg.


Sure makes sense since they have to be 14 years old in order to be able to pilot an EVA.

Kazuki-san wrote:
It is also necessary to go over the ideas of original sin. The idea that after Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge, humans were no longer born without sin, and as such could never be one with God again. Adam and Eve were then cast out of the garden of eden (Egg of Lillith), and a guard of cherubim (angels) was placed to protect the way to the tree of life. With both the fruit of knowledge and the fruit of life, man would be like god.


This could be understood in two ways. One is that sin itself is the knowledge of good and evil that we obtained by eating the fruit. The other is that knowing good and evil is no sin but eating the fruit without permission was the sin itself. I assume you mean the first one in the context of the TV series since there is never a mention of a god like being making the eating of the fruit a sin.

Kazuki-san wrote:
SEELE's plan is to rid the world of sin (original and otherwise) by reverting man back into Lillith's egg and the Hall of Gaffe. Whether at this point they intended for humans to be born again without sin or simply to remain, joined as one, in the Hall of Gaffe is unclear.


So basically you are saying that SELEE wants to take back the knowledge of good and evil while Gendo wants to keep it and add the fruit of life to the mix just for kicks. Although this would make sense and would tie up a lot of loose ends there are many things in the show that go against it and other things that corroborate it. That is why I say that the storyline of Evangelion is mess of contradictory facts caused by sloppy story writing.

Kazuki-san wrote:
While it's true there is nothing but references in regards to spiritual and religious symbolism, they are all very well though out, and not simply just, for instance, a cross thrown in there, just because.


Sure the different symbols and other thing might not have just been thrown in randomly because they were cool and mysterious but that doesn’t mean that they weren’t added with little regard to how their additions would affect the bigger picture.

Anywaste, getting back to the Gendo vs. SELEE plan for humanity. I should mention once again that I would prolly be able to write a lot more about this subject had I just seen Evangelion but alas I have not. One thing that comes into mind is the fact that SELEE mentions that they believe human beings in their current form have reached the limit of their development and that the Instrumentality project is meant to evolve humans into a higher state. Furthermore there is the name of the “artificial Evolution Laboratory" which once again suggests the plans for the further evolution of man. What you think SELEE has in mind would not be evolution at all but exactly the opposite, as it would revert humans back to an earlier state. What would be evolution is humans obtaining the fruit of life and becoming an singular entity like you think Gendo is planning. There is also the line from Fuyutski as he is commenting what is happening during third impact where he mentions something about angels having the fruit of life and humans having the fruit of knowledge, which should be important to our discussion but alas I have forgotten exactly what he says. Besides during the third impact we see EVA01 turning into the tree of life, which suggests the obtaining of the fruit of life but nothing happens that suggests the losing of the fruit of Knowledge. And I don’t recall anyone in the series mentioning anything about original sin other than Gendo and Fuyutski during their second trip to Antarctica to pick up the lance. You would expect SELEE to mention sin at least once if they planned to get rid of it.

Kazuki-san wrote:
In order for SELEE to invoke the Tree of Life, they must first defeat the angels guarding the tree.


Yes, that fact that the angels had to die in order for instrumentiality to work should be the one only no doubt about it fact in the TV series….. that is, once again, if it wasn’t for something in the show. In one of the early episodes we see a meeting between SELEE and Gendo where the things SELEE say suggest that they don’t care about the angels and the EVA series and they instead urge Gendo to focus on the Instrumentiality project. They sound like that the fact that the angels are trying to destroy NERV doesn’t bother them the least bit almost like they see them as no threat. And if the death of all the angels is necessary for Instrumentality then why would they tell Gendo to focus on Instrumentality almost as if it has nothing to do with the angels?

Kazuki-san wrote:
Because SELEE decides to send the Eva series and directly assault NERV, they are ultimately successful in their plan of ridding the world of original sin. Shinji/Eva 1 call to Rei/Lillith as they are being sacrificed on the tree of life. (Eva Unit 1, holding both the Fruit of Knowledge, Shinji; and the Fruit of Life, the S2 engine it ate.) She rejects Gendo's plan and merges back with the rest of her body, goes to Shinji, and puts the future of humanity in his hands. He, of course, decides to allow the AT field to be put back in place, and is returned, along with Asuka, to earth.


There is two things wrong with what you mention above. One is that I highly doubt that SELEE had any plans for using Shinji in Instrumentiality as the invaders of NERV had specific orders to kill the him and the rest of the pilots. Second is that I don’t think that they knew that Shinji was inside EVA01 when they started second impact and him being there was a mistake that ultimately cost them their plan. Perhaps the only difference between Gendo’s and SELEE’s plans was that a merger between Lillith a Adam would yield an entity who could control the outcome of Second impact as it wished. SELEE didn’t want that because that would make the success of Instrumentality the decision of an sentient entity and would not guarantee its success as they wanted.

Another thing that puzzles me is why SELEE would give the Adam embryo to Gendo if it wasn’t necessary for the success of Instrumentality and would put too much power in Gendo’s hands in addition to jeopardizing their plans. Surely they didn’t do it because they trusted him since they showed distrust towards him since the beginning.

Kazuki-san wrote:
He, of course, decides to allow the AT field to be put back in place, and is returned, along with Asuka, to earth.

From here everything really gets into speculation.. well .. moreso into it.

Either:

1. Shinji and Asuka are the first to return to having an AT field, and others will follow that have the will to live..

..or..

2. Shinji and Asuka have become the new Adam and Eve, who repopulate the earth and usher in the new era of humanity. (not a longshot, considering that there is now a sea of LCL, which could perhaps mean that the Hall of Gaffe is now full of unborn souls.)


I won’t touch those last 3-4 minutes with and ten foot pole! I just chose to ignore it and have officially decided that it means nothing that any normal human being could ever dream of figuring out.

This is of course just the tip of the iceberg of contradictory facts and mysteries in Evangelion. It might be a little long but try and chew on it anyway and see if you can shine a light on some of the issues I have brought up.
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:17 am Reply with quote
kamiboy wrote:

So I will accept that also but then we come to the theory of Kaworu being borne in Adams egg during second impact. Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t that largely based on speculation with no real underlying facts? If you have anything to back this up then please write more about it as the origins of Kaworu and how SELEE came in possession of him is one of the bigger mysteries of the TV series.


The relevant lines come from the very beginning of Death & Rebirth. When we see the video of the research team one of the lines they say is " Commence heat-extinguishing process at the same time as the portal of the Hall of Gaffe opens" So we know, that during Second Impact, the Hall of Gaffe inside Adam's Egg is opened. One can infer from that line, as well as Kawouru's birthdate, would mean he was an angel that was released from the egg during Second Impact. Another clue, is one of the lines regarding Kawouru from the Red Cross Book, "It is likely that he was an Angel which had been captured by SEELE in the embryo stage." If he was recovered from Antartica as an embryo, and taken for study, Gendo would not be aware that Kawouru was, in fact, an angel. This is especially true when you take into account the physical appearence of the other angels.

kamiboy wrote:
Next comes the issue of the soul of Tabris that you say was borne in the egg of Adam, which would be logical was it not for a couple of things in the anime. If Tabris was artificially produced then SELEE would be able to insert a soul into him just like NERV somehow inserted Lillith’s soul into Rei. It would of course be logical that if SELEE is in possession of Adams body (the embryo that Kagi brings for Gendo) like NERV is in possession of Lillith’s body then Kaworu should have the soul of Adam. This would be just a speculation based on logical conclusions, but there are actually things in the anime that corroborate it.


A part of me suspects that he also holds the soul of Adam, but I cannot say for certain either way. I know that Rei has the soul of Lillith, because it is explicilty stated in the Red Cross Book, but it says nothing of the soul residing inside of Kawouru.

kamiboy wrote:
It could also be argued that the Kaworu we see during and after the third impact is actually just an image that Ayanami/Lillith creates to calm Shinji but there is no proof of this, as he seems genuine enough.

Well in EoE Shinji freaks out when he sees the giant Rei and all the little ones sprouting out of the Eva series. He begins to repeat "I can't take it anymore", at which point the image changes to Kawouru who says "Is this Better?" It appears to merely be an attempt to calm Shinji who is still distressed over the death of Kawouru, but Kawouru does appear later with Rei, so it is possible he is the soul of Adam

kamiboy wrote:
Surely if that was the case then wouldn’t they have had bigger plans for him than just sending him of to get killed? Or why didn’t they just plant a bullet between his eyes themselves? It could be argued that perhaps he was too powerfull to be killed like that and that only EVA01 was strong enough to snuff him but there is no proof. It is also possible that maybe they were keeping the last angel so they could decide the timeline for his arrival but there are no proofs of this either.


Proof is something which is certainly lacking in Eva, but there are logical observations that can be made based on what is "known". SELEE knows that Gendo is going against them, they have only been working with him because, until the last angel is destroyed, their goals coincide with one another. SELEE could keep Kawouru around, so that they could throw him at NERV at their leisure, and then begin the assault before NERV has a chance to stop events from taking place. We also know that an Eva is the only thing, other than the spear, that can penetrate an angel's AT field, meaning Kawouru couldn't just be shot dead or anything.

kamiboy wrote:
That is unless Kaworu merging with Lillith would have had the same effect as Ayanami merging with Adam. In that case then maybe Kaworu could start Third Impact alone and that could have been the trump card SELEE was speaking of. But wouldn’t that have placed the fate of the world in the hands of an angel rather than SELEE?


The merging of Rei/Adam/Lillith didn't start Third Impact, the anti-AT field created before the sacrificing of EVA-01 did.


kamiboy wrote:
This could be understood in two ways. One is that sin itself is the knowledge of good and evil that we obtained by eating the fruit. The other is that knowing good and evil is no sin but eating the fruit without permission was the sin itself. I assume you mean the first one in the context of the TV series since there is never a mention of a god like being making the eating of the fruit a sin.


Actually, I'm referring to eating the fruit as the sin.
Gendo: "Mankind, chased from the Garden of Eden and forced to escape to earth to live cheek and jowl with death."

kamiboy wrote:
What you think SELEE has in mind would not be evolution at all but exactly the opposite, as it would revert humans back to an earlier state. What would be evolution is humans obtaining the fruit of life and becoming an singular entity like you think Gendo is planning.


I'm aware of that. Before the sin occured, man was unpunished living within the egg as one. After the sin occured, man was punished by being given an AT field to seperate them, and being banished to earth. I am unsure, however, if SELEE merely wants to revert us to the egg, or wants us to be reborn anew without sin, which would certainly be a step in evolution. There is a line here which covers both this, and your statement about SEELE not mentioning sin:
SEELE:"Man has forgotten his previous folly, and will repeat his mistakes."
SEELE:"If man does not repent, he will not change."
SEELE: "This is a rite-of-passage. So man, who is closed off, can be revitalized."
SEELE: "The fate of destruction is the joy of rebirth."
Gendo:"No, That's wrong. We do not revert to nothingness. Everything merely reverts to the beginning. We merely revert to the mother-figure, which has been lost to this world. All hearts become one and gain eternal repose. No more than that."

As proof of Gendo's differing plan, I offer:

Gendo:"Humans should push ever onward toward a new world. That is what the Eva series is all about."
and SEELE, speaking of Gendo:
"It seems there is a man who is attempting to acquire the powers close to those of a god."

I also forgot to mention, that in one story of Lillith, she left Adam married Lucifer, and gave birth to a demon, Lilim. By reverting us to the egg, and atoning for our sins (by crucifying Eva 1 upon the Tree of Life), we could then be born again as a child of Adam, not Lillith, and as such be good in the eyes of god.

kamiboy wrote:
There is also the line from Fuyutski as he is commenting what is happening during third impact where he mentions something about angels having the fruit of life and humans having the fruit of knowledge, which should be important to our discussion but alas I have forgotten exactly what he says. Besides during the third impact we see EVA01 turning into the tree of life, which suggests the obtaining of the fruit of life but nothing happens that suggests the losing of the fruit of Knowledge.


The line is: "The Fruit of Life borne by the angels, and the Fruit of Knowledge borne by human beings. Eva-01 has acquired both of these gifts, and so has become god."

Eva-01 acquired the Fruit of Life when it ate the S2 engine from the angel, not when it turned into the Inverted Tree of Life. The Fruit of Life, Immortality. The S2 Engine, a way for the Angels and Eva-01 to power themselves indefinetely without a separate power source. S

SEELE doesn't need the Fruit of Life, because it merely wants to rid us of our sin. The sacrifice is what does it. Gendo, however, does need the Fruit of Life, in order to elevate man into a god.

kamiboy wrote:
And if the death of all the angels is necessary for Instrumentality then why would they tell Gendo to focus on Instrumentality almost as if it has nothing to do with the angels?

Because SEELE has the Dead Sea Scrolls, which tells them that the Angels will be defeated, and that Third Impact will take place. It's not the same thing as SEELE saying not to send out an Eva when an Angel appears. They simply know that the Eva will prevail in each case, and that Gendo had better keep, what is in reality the main project of NERV, current.

kamiboy wrote:

There is two things wrong with what you mention above. One is that I highly doubt that SELEE had any plans for using Shinji in Instrumentiality as the invaders of NERV had specific orders to kill the him and the rest of the pilots.

I never said that Shinji was necessary. The sacrifice of atonement of Lillith was necessary. It just happened to be that Shinji got to Eva-01, which is what ultimately threw the wrench in their plans.

kamiboy wrote:
Perhaps the only difference between Gendo’s and SELEE’s plans was that a merger between Lillith a Adam would yield an entity who could control the outcome of Second impact as it wished. SELEE didn’t want that because that would make the success of Instrumentality the decision of an sentient entity and would not guarantee its success as they wanted.


I don't believe a merger was necessary, simply the sacrifice of atonement using Lillith. When the original spear was thrown away by Gendo, SEELE had no choice but to attempt Third Impact using Eva-01, a clone of Lillith. Gendo was going to fuse with Lillith and Adam, which would combine the Fruit of Life and the Fruit of Knowledge, giving him the power of a god. Eva-01 obtaining the Fruit of Life is most likely what really derailed SEELE, coupled with Shinji being inside it. With the powers of a god, Eva-01 was then able to choose the fate of mankind. Since it was merely a clone of Lillith, and not the orginal, it wouldn't be able to use the egg, which necessitated the Rei/Lillith's involvement.

kamiboy wrote:
Another thing that puzzles me is why SELEE would give the Adam embryo to Gendo if it wasn’t necessary for the success of Instrumentality and would put too much power in Gendo’s hands in addition to jeopardizing their plans.


But they didn't "give" it to him. Kaji "acquired" it for him. Kaji who was working for both NERV and SEELE; yet, at the same time, for neither.

One more thing I neglected to mention. We know that the first and second impacts were huge explosions. The first being the giant meteor impact that wiped out the dinosaurs and the second being smaller in scale, due to man's attempts to reduce Adam to an embryo, to prevent a much larger explosion (we know that in the blast radius of Second Impact, not one living organism survives). Third Impact would bring about the destruction of all mankind if they were not within the egg. Shinji chose the third option available to him. 1. Allow man to be rid of his sin and return to the egg, 2. Use Gendo's plan to upgrade man to the status of god, 3. Use the egg as an ark to save mankind from the destruction of Third Impact. Of course, I'm sure he wasn't aware that was what he was doing; but, in effect, it was.

This is the scenario that Yui and Fuyutski wish for:
Fuyutski (paraphrased) "The Fruit of Life borne by the Angels, and the Fruit of Knowledge borne by human beings. Eva-01 has acquired both of these gifts, and so has become god. Now the source of all souls, the Tree of Life has been formed again. Will it be an ark to save all mankind, or a demon that will destroy us all?"

Gendo, Yui, Fuyutski, SEELE; all knew that Third Impact was inevitable due to the Dead Sea Scrolls.
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kamiboy



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:22 pm Reply with quote
I would like to watch the EoE movie again and then continue our discussion. Since it only lasts about 2 hours and won't be released in a better version in the US I will be watching it tonight.

But before that a short comment.

Kazuki-san wrote:
We know that the first and second impacts were huge explosions. The first being the giant meteor impact that wiped out the dinosaurs and the second being smaller in scale, due to man's attempts to reduce Adam to an embryo, to prevent a much larger explosion (we know that in the blast radius of Second Impact, not one living organism survives).


This is a common misconception among the fans of Evangelion. The first impact was not the meteor that supposedly wiped out the dinosaurs but something that happened long before that. The theory is that during the early stages of earths forming our planet was struck by another smaller planet and the resulting impact caused the two bodies to merge and also caused the forming of the moon.
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msi435



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:36 pm Reply with quote
Someone should sticky this thread, this question is asked enough.
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:40 pm Reply with quote
kamiboy wrote:

This is a common misconception among the fans of Evangelion. The first impact was not the meteor that supposedly wiped out the dinosaurs but something that happened long before that. The theory is that during the early stages of earths forming our planet was struck by another smaller planet and the resulting impact caused the two bodies to merge and also caused the forming of the moon.


You are correct, because I can confirm this with the Red Cross Book. (which refers to it as the "Giant Impact" that occured 4 billion years ago) Both the meteor that killed the dinosaurs and the theory you have referred to are often refereed to as the "Giant Impact". What gives it away is the 4 billions years ago as opposed to 65 million years ago.
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kamiboy



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:19 pm Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:
kamiboy wrote:

This is a common misconception among the fans of Evangelion. The first impact was not the meteor that supposedly wiped out the dinosaurs but something that happened long before that. The theory is that during the early stages of earths forming our planet was struck by another smaller planet and the resulting impact caused the two bodies to merge and also caused the forming of the moon.


You are correct, because I can confirm this with the Red Cross Book. (which refers to it as the "Giant Impact" that occured 4 billion years ago) Both the meteor that killed the dinosaurs and the theory you have referred to are often refereed to as the "Giant Impact". What gives it away is the 4 billions years ago as opposed to 65 million years ago.


The fact that the impact between earth and another planet was labelled the first impact is of some interest. This could lead one to theorize that perhaps originally the egg of Adam was located in one and the egg of Lillith in another. Or in other words each planet was meant to inhabit one creature and only one. So when they collided and both eggs wound up on the same planet it was fated that eventually one would have to wipe out the other in order to assure its continued existence. This is somewhat supported by the ending speech of Kaworu in which he says and either the humans or the Angels will be able to inherit the future. But alas with nothing else backing it up it will ever remain nothing but speculation.

Now if you’ll excuse me I have to tune out and watch episode 24 of the TV series and the EoE movies to shine some more light on the matter.
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EnforcerSG



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:15 pm Reply with quote
Several questions before I start. First, where did Rei come from? Was she (at least Rei 1) the result of the attempted salvage of Yui? That could be how her soul and body is a hybrid of Yui and whichever angle Unit 1 was made from.

Second, why did the pilots have to be born on/after the second impact? I realize that the only reason they could pilot was because of the circumstances surrounding why they could sync with them, but was there anything beyond that?

Also, and this does stray from the discussion to a point, but somewhere along the line, I was told that the R1 DVD of End of Eva had some stupid edits in it. Things like spoiler[Kaworu's name edited off of the mass produced eva dummy plug]. Asking a friend who owns the DVD, he says that is not true (the name is there), so I am wondering if there is an explanation of this, or am I just messed up?

Also, I know that the show ran low on money at about episode 20. However, I have heard that the show was supposed to be about 40 episodes long before the budget cut. I have also heard that it was always suppose to be 26. Which was it?

Quote:
We know that the first and second impacts were huge explosions. The first being the giant meteor impact that wiped out the dinosaurs and the second being smaller in scale, due to man's attempts to reduce Adam to an embryo, to prevent a much larger explosion (we know that in the blast radius of Second Impact, not one living organism survives).


Actually from what I understand, reducing Adam to an embryo kept the explosion small. Reducing Adam was not the cause, but the abrupt end of the second impact.

Quote:
If you have anything to back this up then please write more about it as the origins of Kaworu and how SELEE came in possession of him is one of the bigger mysteries of the TV series.


Just as good of a question is how did they get Adam (before the 2ed impact) and Lillith?


The original sin theory... He too wanted to rid the world of original sin, but he wanted to use humans power, our intelligence and knowledge, to do it, whereas SEELE wanted to go back to mankind’s original form. Or so the theory goes I think. I have no idea how to apply that to the actions that occurred in the show/EoE.
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:08 pm Reply with quote
EnforcerSG wrote:
First, where did Rei come from? Was she (at least Rei 1) the result of the attempted salvage of Yui? That could be how her soul and body is a hybrid of Yui and whichever angle Unit 1 was made from.

Yes Rei is, at least partially, a clone of Yui. Likely she is also partially a clone of Lillith. Her soul is that of Lillith, not of Yui, as Yui's soul is inside of Unit 1.

EnforcerSG wrote:
Second, why did the pilots have to be born on/after the second impact? I realize that the only reason they could pilot was because of the circumstances surrounding why they could sync with them, but was there anything beyond that?


That is unclear. It doesn't seem like a coincidence that Shinji and Asuka were born on the day of Second Impact, and their mother's turned into test subjects.

EnforcerSG wrote:
I was told that the R1 DVD of End of Eva had some stupid edits in it. Things like spoiler[Kaworu's name edited off of the mass produced eva dummy plug]. Asking a friend who owns the DVD, he says that is not true (the name is there), so I am wondering if there is an explanation of this, or am I just messed up?


As far as I know if there are no stupid edits in it. Kawouru's name does appear on the dummy plug.

EnforcerSG wrote:
Also, I know that the show ran low on money at about episode 20. However, I have heard that the show was supposed to be about 40 episodes long before the budget cut. I have also heard that it was always suppose to be 26. Which was it?


Once again, as far as I know, 26 was the intended length, although one theory is that the lack of money to force Gainax to change the original ending into the introspective piece that it is. Anno denies this however.

EnforcerSG wrote:
Actually from what I understand, reducing Adam to an embryo kept the explosion small. Reducing Adam was not the cause, but the abrupt end of the second impact.

Actually, man itself initiated Second Impact in their attempt to reduce Adam to an embryonic state. This can be found in the Red Cross Book, and in the notes contained in Death & Rebirth. Also, there is alot of information contained in the background voices heard at the beginning of Death & Rebirth. They are very difficult to hear, as they are being talked over, but it is clear that they are initiating Second Impact, although they were not quite prepared for the results that ensued.

"Cut that surface light!"
"It's exceeding the projected growth limitations!"
"Adam's genetic structure is undergoing fusion!"
"AT Field has spread to maximum capacity"
"The Lance! Put the Lance back!"
"It's sinking!"
"Do whatever you can to minimize the damage"
"Commence the sub-atomic structure analysis. Hurry up!"

Here is the offical word on Second Impact from the Red Cross Book "but it was actually an artificial event -- caused by SEELE's and Gendou's attempt to reduce the 1st Angel, Adam, to embryo form before the other Angels awakened."

EnforcerSG wrote:
Just as good of a question is how did they get Adam (before the 2ed impact) and Lillith?

It isn't so much "get" as found. We know that Adam was found if not in, then at least at his egg, and most likely likewise with Lillith. No doubt this is based on information contained in the dead sea scrolls which SEELE has.
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kamiboy



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:24 pm Reply with quote
I just finished watching EoE and all it did was leave me mesmerized by the animation in the first half and depressed from the bleak confusing second half, just like with the TV series.

Kidding aside it really did help watching episode 24 and the new (EoE) ‘25 & ‘26 again. I have to say that your sin anology leaves me little confused and I prefer not to use it as it is a rather abstract concept and that is the last thing Evangelion needs. But our discussion did help me focus on some key parts and finally come up with a semi-stable theory. I will now present that theory and you can make of it, as you want.

Basically what it all boils down to is that up to a point Gendo’s and SEELE’s plans are the same. They both plan to use an anti AT-field to cast away the forms of every human and collecting their souls inside a “vessel” that will protect them from the destruction of Third Impact. Third Impact is an inevitable event, which illogically enough can be initiated at will after the death of the last angel. That is, provided that you have the necessary items to initiate it, which seem to include Lilith and the lance of Longinus. There is however other ways to go about it using other methods and/or ingredients such as using Lilith’s clone (EVA01) but they mostly remain unknown.

What happens after the souls have been gathered inside the “vessel” and survived Third Impact is where Gendo’s and SEELE’s plans differ. So far as I can tell Gendo planned to join Yui inside EVA01 and live inside it with her forever as an eternal testament to the existence of humanity. In his plan the rest of humanity would return and live on after surviving Third Impact. SEELE did not want humans to survive, they wanted all life including “god” to die and through death merge everything into a perfect complete being. Gendo’s plan failed because in the end Rei rejected him in a way that very much resembles a certain variant of the myth of Lilith.

The myth I am referring to has it that god first created Adam from mud and then created his bride Lilith from the same mud. When Adam tried to mate with her she refused saying why she should lie beneath Adam when they are equals and ultimately abandoned him. Later god created a more suitable wife for Adam by using one of his ribs so she would be more submissive. Lilith later mated with one of Adams children and gave birth to lillim, which funny enough were demons. This is very much like the event in EoE where Rei rejects Gendo, who is now fused with Adam, saying that she is not his doll and instead chooses his son.

Getting back to Instrumentality we have that Gendo’s plan failed because Ayanami rejected him but SEELE succeeded in achieving their objective. In EoE we first see that Eva01 merge with the Lance of Longinus and turn into the tree of life, the source of all souls. Then the Eva series pierced their cores killing themselves and the anti AT-field coming from Lilith caused all humans to die. Lilith then absorbed all souls inside herself together with the tree of life/EVA01. At that point SEELE had achieved its goal of killing everyone and forming everything into a single being. What happened next was however a not part of their plan, as the further development of things was left up to Shinji by Lilith. Shinji then wished for a world where no one existed and everyone was alone and when he saw that world decided that things, as bad as they were, were better before. So he decides that humans should get their AT-fields back and become separate entities again. Yui tells Shinji that she intends to remain inside EVA01 forever as an eternal proof that humans have existed.

At long last I will provide text from various scenes that corroborate my theories.

First of all lets tackle the different plans of Gendo and SEELE.

In the beginning of EoE Misato says the following:

Misato (to herself):
Having reached its limit as a colony of flawed and separate entities,
Humankind is to be artificially evolved into a perfect single being.
The Instrumentality Project...
An ideal world...
And to achieve this the Committee plans to use not Adam or NERV, but Eva.
Just like Kaji predicted.

Later we whiteness the last meeting between SEELE and Gendo in which the following words are uttered:

SEELE 01 (Keel):
The promised time has come.
With the Lance of Longinus now lost, complementation using Lilith is impossible.
Our only hope is to proceed with EVA-01, Lilith's sole clone.

Gendo:
While different from SEELE's scenario...

Fuyutsuki:
Humans have existed to create Eva. (ambiguous)

Gendo:
Humans should evolve into a new world. That is the purpose of the Eva series.

(Here Gendo is saying that humans should remain humans and embrace the new world after third impact)

SEELE 09:
We have no intention of giving up our human forms simply to enter the Ark called Eva.

SEELE 12:
It is merely a rite of passage... To bring about the rebirth in those who are imprisoned.

(Here SEELE09 &12 are saying that entering the Ark and survuivin Third Impact is just the first step towards being reborn into a new being.

SEELE 05(?):
The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.

SEELE 04(?):
A sacrament to unite God, humans, and all other life forms in death.

(Once again SEELE is saying that they are planning to destroy everything to unite them into a new being)

Gendo:
Death gives birth to nothing.

(Gendo does not want the death of the human race)

SEELE 01 (Keel):
Then death is what you shall have.

(Negotiations brake down)

(SEELE monoliths disappear)

Fuyutsuki:
Humans exist because they have the will to live...
And that is the reason she remained within Eva.

(she (Yui) remains in EVA01 because she wants at least one human to still be alive after our sun gets married, lets herself go, grows so fat that she swallows up the first four planets in out solar system and leads to the destruction of man)

The following scene with SEELE takes place right after EVA01 calls back the Lance of Longinus from the moon in EoE:

SEELE 01:
At long last our hopes are to be realized.

SEELE 04:
The original Lance of Longinus has returned as well.

SEELE 09:
While somewhat fewer than planned, it will have to do.

ALL (chanting):
Return the Eva series to its rightful form.
Evangelize humankind and restore us to our true form.
With indiscriminate death and prayers, we return to our original state.

SEELE 01:
And let all souls find peace.
Now, let the sacrament begin!

(Basically they are saying that they want everything merged back together because that is how it was in the beginning)

Of course the interpretation of those lines are not absolute so others might derive different meanings from them.

To further solidify the fact that EVA01 was meant by Fuyutski, Gendo and Yui to be both the savior of mankind and an eternal testament to humanity I provide the following:

In episode 24 (Standing in front of and talking to EVA01):

Gendo: The time that has been given to us runs short. But the Lance of Longinus that stood in the way of our desire is no more. Soon, the final angel will appear. If we destroy it, our wish will come true. Just a little longer Yui.

(This shows that Gendo has not hatched a selfish plan on his own but has decided on one with Yui’s before she was absorbed by EVA01)

This scene takes place as the black moon is rising towards the heavens.

Fuyutsuki (off screen):
The egg of Lilith... the genesis of human life... the Black Moon...
We have no desire to return to that empty shell,
(on screen) But even that depends on the will of Lilith.

(Basically he is saying that he who holds the ring (Lilith) holds the power. Also he is saying that we humans do not want to return to our origin (back inside the black moon) like SEELE wishes)

This scene takes place after Rei has merged back with Lilith’s body.

SCENE: NERV Command Center

Shigeru:
Solenoid graph inverting! ego barrier weakening!

Makoto:
AT Field shifting to pattern red!

Fuyutsuki:
The Fruit of Life possessed by Angels,
And the Fruit of Wisdom possessed by humans...

(The Lance penetrates the core and merges with EVA-01 into the Tree of Life)

Fuyutsuki (off screen):
Having obtained them both, EVA-01 has become like a God.
And now it has been restored to the propagule of souls... the Tree of Life.
Will it become the Ark to save humankind from the nothingness of Third Impact?
Or the demon that destroys us all?
Our future lies in the hands of Ikari's son.

(Ark to save humankind was the plan of Gendo, Yui and Fuyutski while the demon of destruction is SEELE’s plan)

Maya (clutching at Shigeru's sleeve):
Did... Did we do the right thing?

Shigeru:
How should I know!?

(Lilith-Kaworu transforms into Lilith-Rei with hands cupped around EVA-01)

Yui (voice):
This Rei is your heart... Your very hopes and dreams...

Rei (voice):
What do you wish for?

(The fate of mankind is placed firmly in the hands of a depressed moody teenager, RUN FOR YOUR GOD DAMNED LIVES!!!!!)

This scene takes place after everyone has lost their AT-fields:

Shinji:
Ayanami... where are we?

Rei:
This is the sea of LCL... The primordial soup of life.
A world without AT Fields... without your own shape.
An ambiguous world where it is impossible to tell where you end and other people start.
A fragile world where you exist everywhere, and thus exist nowhere.

Shinji:
Have I died?

Rei:
No, everything has just been joined into one.
This is the world you have been hoping for... your world.

Shinji (releasing Misato's cross from his left hand):
But... this isn't right. I don't think this is right.

Rei:
If you wish once more for the existence of others, the barriers of the heart will separate everyone once more...
And the fear of other people will begin again.

Shinji:
That's all right...

(disengages Rei from him and clasps her hand)

Thank you.

(Shinji and Rei, Shinji's head lying in Rei's lap)

Shinji:
I feel that there were only hateful things there.
So I'm sure it was okay to run away.
But there was nothing good in the place I ran to, either.
After all, I didn't exist there... which is the same as no one existing.

Kaworu:
Is it okay for AT Fields to hurt you and others once more?

Shinji:
I don't mind. But, what are you two within my heart?

Rei:
Hope.
The hope that people might be able to understand one another.

Kaworu:
And the words 'I love you'.

Shinji:
But that's just pretending - a self-intoxicating belief... like a prayer.
It can't possibly last forever.
Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me.
Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real.

(Shinji finally gets what he wished for and wishes that he hadn’t wished it)

This scene takes place after Shinji has rejected Instrumentality:

Yui:
So, you'll be okay now?

Shinji:
I still don't know where to find happiness...
But I'll continue to think about whether it's good to be here... whether it was good to have been born.
But in the end, it's just realizing the obvious over and over again.
Because I am myself.

(Shinji emerges from the sea of LCL... Lilith-Rei's head splits)

Shinji:
But mother... what will you do?

(Flashback to 13 years ago - Fuyutsuki, Yui and infant-Shinji)

Fuyutsuki:
Humans create Evangelion in imitation of God... Is this our true goal?

Yui:
Yes. Humans can only live on this planet, but Evangelion can live forever... together with the human soul that dwells within it.

(EVA-01 and the Lance of Longinus float in space)

Even after 5 billion years, when the Earth, the Moon, and even the Sun have disappeared, it will still exist as long as even one person still lives.
It will be very lonely, but as long as that one person still lives...

Fuyutsuki:
It will be the eternal proof that humankind has existed...

Shinji:
Good-bye, mother.

(I don’t think this needs any explanations, it was part of Gendo, Fuyutski and Yui’s original plan)
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Kazuki-san



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:50 pm Reply with quote
I agree with a great deal of what you said, except for basically one thing. While it is most likely true that Gendo was on the same side as Yui and Fuyutski to begin with, I'm not certain that he completely was once Yui remained in the Eva. Several attempts are made to rescue her after that occurs. Also, in EoE, there is the scene where Yui talks to Gendo during Third Impact and, in retribution for his sins, is "eaten" by Eva 01. Whether this is to show that he is merely not allowed to be with Yui, or is completely excluded from Instrumentality and therefore destroyed is unclear.

That's the beauty of Eva though, especially those that accuse it of having shoddy writing. The way the story is woven together, 100 people can look at it and come up with 100 perfectly plausible explanations, which after watching it 100 times, could never actually be proven.

I do believe this calls for another marathon viewing though!
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kamiboy



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:14 pm Reply with quote
You though I was done didn’t you… shame on you!

Now the matter of the different post Third Impact plans are done with I will add some info I got from watching episode 24 regarding Kaworu. In that episode it is confirmed that Kaworu indeed is in possession of Adams soul and is made from his body like the Eva series. As proof please take these following quotes from the self same episode:

This is the scene where Ayanami and Kaworu first meet

Kaworu: You’re the same as me. So both of us ended up in the same form as lilim while we inhabit this planet.

(This suggests, to me at least, that Kaworu was created by SEELE as Ayanami was created by Nerv)

This scene is from the directors cut version episode and shows Kaworu speaking with SEELE monoliths.

Kaworu: Humans cannot create anything out of nothingness. Humans cannot accomplish anything without holding onto something. After all, humans are not gods.

SEELE monolith: But there is one man who is trying to obtain power equal to that of god. There is a man, who is not one of us, attempting to open Pandora’s Box once again.

SEELE monolith: There is man trying to close the Box before the hope at the bottom appears.

Kaworu: Hope? You’re saying that is the Lilim’s hope?

SEELE monolith: Hope exists in as many forms as there are people and that is because hope only exists in the hearts of people.
However our hope is becoming substantiated. That is Lilith, the progenitor of mankind who are the false successor from the black moon. And Adam, the progenitor of the angels. Who are the true successor from the lost white moon. His (Adam) salvaged soul exists only within you. However, his resurrected body already exists within Ikari.

(There it is black on white, Kaworu has the soul of Adam. Also the use of the word “salvaged” suggest that Kaworu was created not born)

Kaworu: Shinji’s father, so he is the same as me.

SEELE monolith: That is why we entrust you with out wish.

Kaworu: I know. That’s why I’m here now after all. All will be as the lilim direct it.

Now moving on with the next point which is why SEELE sent him to NERV in the first place. I think the following quotes shine some light on that:

During Kaworu and EVA02 descend towards the terminal Dogma.

Fuyutski: I never imagined SEELE would send one directly to us.

Gendo: The old men intend to step up the schedule by forcing our hand.

(This corroborates that he was sent there so the last angel would die and Instrumentality could be started)

This scene also takes place during the descend

SEELE monolith: Humans forget their foolishness and repeat their mistakes. If humans do not redeem themselves willingly, they will not change. We will not rely on the power of Adam or the Angels. Our only choice is to make changes with our own hands for the future. I will be praying that Unit-01 accomplishes its task.

(The task of Unit-01 is of course defeating Kaworu before he reaches Lilith so this once again corroborates that they wanted him dead.)

With that I am finished for now. I know this all is not exactly a perfect theory and I am sure that I could come up with a lot of counterpoints if I thought about it hard enough but this is as good as I can manage or is manageable for something like Evangelion.

Now Boogiepop Phanton is a great example of how to make a series that takes some thinking to figure out. I admit I was as confused as I was the first time I saw Evangelion when I saw Boogiepop for the first time. However a second viewing with close attention to certain parts yielded answers to all the mysteries and questions.
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