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Hey, Answerman! [2009-02-27]


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littlegreenwolf



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 4796
Location: Seattle, WA
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:46 pm Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:

Orientalism:

There are two meanings to this term. The first is to an art movement in the 1800s that displayed a lot of themes and styles drawn from "the East," which included the Middle East, India, China, and Japan (all lumped together, of course). "The East" was seen as exotice, mystic, sexy, "cool." People would talk about the "wisdom of the East," as opposed to the crass materialism and science of the West. You still see this a LOT, especially if you look at non-scholarly trade paperbacks on anything "Eastern." The Dalai Lama has sure as heck made use of it...

The other comes from the book of the same title by Edward Said, it refers to the idea that all "Eastern" cultures are not only different from "the West," but are somehow fundamentally all the same. "The East" becomes constructed as an Other to the West. Said also argues that Western studies of "the East," especially the Middle East, have always had an imperialist agenda, where "the East" is inferior to "the West," thus justifying its colonization. He's faced criticism for a lot of his claims, but it's hard to argue that he has a point about how we lump "the East" together in an opposition to "the West," even when they have nothing in common with each other.

Hence, "Avatar" would be considered Orientalist because of how it depicts all the "eastern" religion/spirituality it references as all being sort of the same (ex. the Tibetan-inspired Avatar who uses a Chinese fighting style takes lessons from an Indian guru) as well as exotic and cool, with the most "Western" (i.e. industrial) nation being automatically evil.

Now, I'd add that lots of stuff produced by actual "Eastern" countries actually does the same thing to their own culture and presents it against "the West," which is a phenomenon known as occidentalism... but this is turning into a lecture, so go read up on it on your own.


I never thought of it that way. You learn something new every day. Anime smile
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fuuma_monou



Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 1816
Location: Quezon City, Philippines
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:57 pm Reply with quote
sunflower wrote:
I'm not sure how you see me "keep bringing up Letters to Penthouse" either, since I've only mentioned them once. ;P


You already mentioned them in a previous thread the yaoi/hentai comparison popped up.

The distinction between porn and erotica is too subjective to be useful to me. Your stereotypical puritan moral crusader wouldn't care. Shoujo Comic is considered the most offensive manga magazine by the Japanese PTA. The silliest definition I've seen came from a Romantic Times rejection letter: sexual content in visual form was pornography, while prose romance novels were erotica, hence they wouldn't review graphic novels. Never mind that the work in question only had implied sex.

I've read a few romance novels. Not really interested in reading more, though I didn't get the "smut for women" vibe. I know Catherine Asaro's The Quantum Rose was attacked as not being science fiction, just a romance novel in disguise, though arguably it's both SF and romance.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3489
Location: Back stateside
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:16 pm Reply with quote
DuelLadyS wrote:
vashfanatic wrote:

Actually, as the "dork" in question who has also READ THE BOOK, they are MUCH older than 15 in it!
...
And don't call people names, it's incredibly rude and mean. We may use aliases, but I'm a real people you're insulting, okay?


S'funny, I find it insulting you assume I've never read the book. (Although you are half-right, I'm not finished with it since I made it a point to read the unabridged version.)

I did confer quickly with my boyfriend and his brother who've finished the book more than once, and they showed me were I screwed up my math on Albert's age. (Never was good at math...) You are right, and I apologize about that.


Since you thought Albert et al. were 15, I assumed you hadn't. (I read the unabridged Penguins Classic translation by Robin Buss, btw, in case we're comparing; none of those "quoth he" and "said he," and with all the implied lesbianism for Eugenie left it etc. I find I prefer the anime for a number of reasons that I can't get into in this post, but if you've seen the anime, you should definitely try reading the book to see how it was adapted.)

I just get sick of people insulting each other on the forums. If you wouldn't say something to someone's face, you shouldn't say it to them in a forum. Calling me a "dork" was uncalled for.
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Panoptican



Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 160
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:52 am Reply with quote
I haven't read every comment, but just in case this wasn't mentioned I'd like to point out that I think Brian misinterpreted part of the first question a bit. I don't believe whoever sent that thinks of anime as a genre. He/she was referring to the wider range of genres that anime encompasses compared to American cartoons.

But yeah, I've seen anime referred to as a genre and it definitely needs to be said that it is a medium. So kudos for throwing it in one of your articles.
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DomFortress



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 751
Location: Richmond BC, Canada
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:14 am Reply with quote
pparker wrote:
Well, I agree there seem to be fewer "original" series, but now that I'm two years into it, I'm not surprised. One could say the same thing about any mature mass entertainment medium at almost any point in time. There just aren't that many stories.
I disagree. It's true that all story elements have a set of flow and characteristics, like how adventure, sci-fi, romance, mystery, horror, comedy, fantasy and what not. But it's up to the story creators to determine how to incorporate these story elements to create something completely new, and that's how a new story is born. For example, I can say with certainty that the new Gundam OO series would've been even more successful, if it didn't forced to carry the Gundam franchise, and emerged as a stand-alone production instead. However, by forcing the "Gundam" brand onto the series itself, it forever lost the chance to make it out on its own.
pparker wrote:
I also understand your dislike of fanservice anime. I consider that a cultural thing, and much less ignore it, I even enjoy it sometimes.
I don't mean fan services in that sense, for I'm a fan of Studio GAINAX, and they know their fan services. The kind of fan services that I don't like, are those that only exist to please a niche anime audiences, particularly those who have the ability to afford the merchandises based on the said fan services elements. Like an anime adaptation of an original work. Or even worst, remake of an existing title. For it has no other purpose other than to retelling an original story using a different medium, in hope to catch the fame of the original fandom, but was in fact too afraid to be independent.
pparker wrote:
The targeting, we must remember, is to Japanese, not to us. The titles you call niche are the bread and butter of a broad range of genres that appeal to the Japanese. Gonzo has been described as having aimed, unfortunately, at foreign markets to the detriment of its domestic sales. Strike Witches seemed to validate that idea.
Not when the audiences that was being targeted were themselves a niche community among their Japanese society. The genre specific fan service anime series were created for the sole purpose of appealing toward a specific audiences among the Japanese population; the 4th generation of anime otakus who are oriented to those fan service elements.
pparker wrote:
I'm not sure break-outs can even be planned. I believe they are more a happy accident than someone deciding to produce a hit for U.S. audiences.
Breakout hit can happen, and it did when anime industry decided to make something different that wasn't targeting towards a niche audiences. And that was Cowboy Bebop, one of the less than successful anime series when it first came out in domestic Japan, but later on gain international fame and was critically acclaimed to be one of the best original anime series of all time.
pparker wrote:
And yes, the odds of that hit being a mecha show, or a fighting show, or a show adapted from a popular kids game, are high. It ain't Clannad, I'll give you that.
The premise of good vs evil in all super robot anime series is although cliche, but nonetheless it can relate itself with all cultures and thus, establishes a common ground for anime to flourish internationally. Another reason why I picked super robot anime because it is an unique story element that none other than the Japanese anime industry had mastered. And that will be the originality for anime to start dignifies itself internationally.
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LordRedhand



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 1472
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:04 am Reply with quote
Had a thought about another reason why we don't see as many anime movies onto the big screen. It is, why would you release a movie that your target audience has already seen? To put into context I recall a conversation that I had with one of my friends

Friend: "Haha, Final Fantasy: Advent Children is bombing at the theaters becuase everyone's seen it already."

Me: "No a movie should fail becuase it's bad, not that it's so popular that people watch it through an illegal means."

So anime movies have an additional cost in that there is a large segment of your target audience that already have "previewed"/watched it in its entirety, which can be a factor to the small audiences in theaters beyond being it's niche market.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:10 am Reply with quote
infinitebeauty wrote:
ikillchicken wrote:

I think this is sort of the underlying problem with American animation. Anime has that pre-made fan base built right in. Even with anime not based on manga, there's still that connection between the fan groups. American animation just doesn't have that. It's a shame too because I think there's plenty of great source material to be found in US comics.


The thing is, there is a stigma about grown people watching cartoons, and that, combined with the fact that comics have got a lot darker over the past 20 years, makes adapting current storylines a tad more difficult. There has to be a balance of making the cartoon acceptable for children to watch, while not dumbing it down. Bruce Timm and Paul Dini managed it, and the team for Avatar managed it, but I very much doubt that we're going to see an animated adaptation of Civil War or Infinite Crisis.


Could not disagree with you more. People (not specifically you here) may believe Japan is some utopia of animation where nobody thinks cartoons are for kids and animated programming is made for people of all ages. That's just not true though. There is still certain stigmas about animation there and while I would say it's a fair bit better than here, the reality is that for the most part animation is not targeted at anyone outside anime fans who are primarilly teens and young adults and these people aren't exactly looked on with the most favorable light by the bulk of Japanese society. Exceptions to this are rare and exceptions that are actually serious action or dramas are even more rare.

As I see it, the bulk of the difference between Japan and here is just that group of nerdy teens and young adults that make up the anime fan base. That group is key to animation ever working here. As it stands though that group has already been primed thanks to the success of numerous animated comedies and anime itself. Granted many people even within this group are still resistant to either serious animation or non Japanese animation. It's a start though. To me this is where comics become key. Maybe if you string together the various people willing to give serious animation a try with those who would watch a program because they were fans of the original comic you might just have enough to make it a mild success. From there you can start actually building a fan base as people become increasingly willing to watch serious animation.

However, exactly what they don't need is to perpetuate this notion that animation must be child friendly. While it is possible sometimes to make something appropriate for children and still appealing to an older audience, it often just doesn't work and even when it does it usually still feels at least a little dumbed down. This is especially true in the case of either action or drama based shows.

No, if animation is ever going to work here, somebody needs to take a risk and make a genuinely adult oriented attempt at an animated drama or action show. That is where again, I think there are quite a few comics that would work perfectly. They should adapt something darker. It's a bit unfortunate though as the ideal peak time to do so may have passed. Anime's popularity seems to be in at least mild decline and with the current economic difficulties as well as TV in general seeing poorer ratings, it's pretty doubtful that anyone will be willing to take such a chance (and arguably, nor should they. At this point it is probably far to great a risk).


fuuma_monou wrote:
UtenaAnthy wrote:
I'm guessing the reason there aren't many hentai reviews on the site is

a) Lack of interest in reviewing material centered around (tentacle) rape.


Yeah, because there isn't any hentai without rape. Like how yaoi is just gay porn for women. Oh, wait.


That's true, however what has always disturbed me about Hentai is just how much of it does involve tentacle rape or some other variation on rape, forced sex, blackmail, bondage, humiliation, etc etc. I'm not really an expert on Hentai but it seems like the majority of them involves this kind of thing. I'm sure there are also at least some if not plenty of series that aren't like this but it's still rather disturbing.
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fuuma_monou



Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 1816
Location: Quezon City, Philippines
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:38 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
That's true, however what has always disturbed me about Hentai is just how much of it does involve tentacle rape or some other variation on rape, forced sex, blackmail, bondage, humiliation, etc etc. I'm not really an expert on Hentai but it seems like the majority of them involves this kind of thing. I'm sure there are also at least some if not plenty of series that aren't like this but it's still rather disturbing.


Yeah. Used to be H games with romantic story-lines would get turned into H anime( like End of Summer), but the trend is that they get turned into "normal" anime that can be shown on TV and presumably have more merchandising potential (e.g., Happiness! and Izumo).

Then there's stuff that hasn't been licensed in the U.S. yet that aren't too objectionable, like the OVA based on Yutaka Tanaka's manga Virgin Night (released way back in 2001). Guess the extreme/perverted stuff sells better, making "hentai" the appropriate term.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14746
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:22 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:

fuuma_monou wrote:
UtenaAnthy wrote:
I'm guessing the reason there aren't many hentai reviews on the site is

a) Lack of interest in reviewing material centered around (tentacle) rape.


Yeah, because there isn't any hentai without rape. Like how yaoi is just gay porn for women. Oh, wait.


That's true, however what has always disturbed me about Hentai is just how much of it does involve tentacle rape or some other variation on rape, forced sex, blackmail, bondage, humiliation, etc etc. I'm not really an expert on Hentai but it seems like the majority of them involves this kind of thing. I'm sure there are also at least some if not plenty of series that aren't like this but it's still rather disturbing.


Doncha remember one of the main reasons given why anime is done in Japan rather than live-action?

Because there are some things you can only do in animation but not live-action! Twisted Evil
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fuuma_monou



Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 1816
Location: Quezon City, Philippines
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:28 am Reply with quote
enurtsol wrote:
Because there are some things you can only do in animation but not live-action! Twisted Evil


Well, there is the live-action La Blue Girl....
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:30 am Reply with quote
fuuma_monou wrote:
enurtsol wrote:
Because there are some things you can only do in animation but not live-action! Twisted Evil


Well, there is the live-action La Blue Girl....


Naku, I knew someone's gonna mention that! Laughing
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:54 am Reply with quote
enurtsol wrote:
ikillchicken wrote:
That's true, however what has always disturbed me about Hentai is just how much of it does involve tentacle rape or some other variation on rape, forced sex, blackmail, bondage, humiliation, etc etc. I'm not really an expert on Hentai but it seems like the majority of them involves this kind of thing. I'm sure there are also at least some if not plenty of series that aren't like this but it's still rather disturbing.


Doncha remember one of the main reasons given why anime is done in Japan rather than live-action?

Because there are some things you can only do in animation but not live-action! Twisted Evil


How exactly do you figure you can't do that kind of thing in live-action? Okay, tentacle stuff would require special effects but for the rest, there's no advantage. Also, come to think of it, there seems to be a ton of this stuff in live action Japanese porn too.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14746
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:20 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
enurtsol wrote:
ikillchicken wrote:
That's true, however what has always disturbed me about Hentai is just how much of it does involve tentacle rape or some other variation on rape, forced sex, blackmail, bondage, humiliation, etc etc. I'm not really an expert on Hentai but it seems like the majority of them involves this kind of thing. I'm sure there are also at least some if not plenty of series that aren't like this but it's still rather disturbing.


Doncha remember one of the main reasons given why anime is done in Japan rather than live-action?

Because there are some things you can only do in animation but not live-action! Twisted Evil


How exactly do you figure you can't do that kind of thing in live-action? Okay, tentacle stuff would require special effects but for the rest, there's no advantage. Also, come to think of it, there seems to be a ton of this stuff in live action Japanese porn too.


What, the girls always crying? Overflow of tears and other liquids? Twisted Evil
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LordRedhand



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 1472
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:50 am Reply with quote
I think the conversation gone a little off somewhere, I'm going to go out now and look at the sun to burn the mental image out of my mind.
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UtenaAnthy



Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 694
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:46 am Reply with quote
fuuma_monou wrote:
UtenaAnthy wrote:
I'm guessing the reason there aren't many hentai reviews on the site is

a) Lack of interest in reviewing material centered around (tentacle) rape.


Yeah, because there isn't any hentai without rape. Like how yaoi is just gay porn for women. Oh, wait.


I didn't mean there isn't any hentai without rape, I meant that quite a bit does have rape in it and reviewers may not want to view those titles.

Also, I agree that Gargoyles is an excellent series, the animation was beautiful and they did a good job of developing the plot (I've only seen the first two sets they released though, I've heard the series gets less good after that?)
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