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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 6915
Location: Snake Mountain Cocktail Lounge

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:47 pm Reply with quote
RogerSterling wrote:
DmonHiro wrote:
It sounds as if Zac doesn't like moe anime... weird...



Zac's a Male Feminist ....for whatever reason. And he clearly despises things he doesn't understand. Excuse me I have naked cam girls to feed. My lust puts food on some women's tables ya know!


Whenever someone uses the word 'feminist' like it's a bad thing or some kind of slur it tells me basically all I need to know about their attitude toward this subject.
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Mighty Laharls Vassal



Joined: 27 Jul 2012
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:25 pm Reply with quote
On the subject of female characters as "males in female skin", I think Extra Credits said it best in their "True Female Characters" episode: http://www.youtube.com/​watch?​v=​Q1qndga6SNU&​list=​FLf5ysiEtpp18KYiGw9_​KIqA&​index=​10&​feature=​plpp_video

I am female and I have a really hard time relating to female characters with very feminine personalities because I possess a very unfeminine personality, but I can easily relate to feminine and masculine personality traits as malleable qualities bases on social contexts because I am introspective enough that I see when I conform to or reject feminine/masculine norms because of how I am, and I would like to see the same in fictional characters.


Last edited by Mighty Laharls Vassal on Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:07 pm; edited 2 times in total
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v1cious



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 5058
Location: Fresno, TX

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:26 pm Reply with quote
Aris was known for being a douche long before the Cross Assault incident. It's part of his schtick: http://www.youtube.com/​watch?​v=​77SfC-​gmK9o

Also since you mentioned blogs, here's the best one I know of: http://fatuglyorslutty.com/​
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Jadress



Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 801
Location: Seattle. It purdy and nerdy!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:11 pm Reply with quote
AmpersandsUnited wrote:
I wonder how Courtney feels about Anita Sarkeesian's proud and dignified armchair activist crusade of Tropes VS Women.... is this what she thinks women need in the video game culture?


I fail to see how a series of videos simply discussing the portrayal of female characters in games (which most will agree at the very least has room for improvement) is a "crusade." She has made similar videos about movies and TV shows, and yet the world continues to spin.

I enjoyed this ANNcast quite a bit, and was pleasantly surprised to hear the mature stances of the G4 guests, as in general I have hated anything having to do with G4.
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ikillchicken
Space CowboySpace Cowboy


Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 6954
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:34 pm Reply with quote
Jadress wrote:
AmpersandsUnited wrote:
I wonder how Courtney feels about Anita Sarkeesian's proud and dignified armchair activist crusade of Tropes VS Women.... is this what she thinks women need in the video game culture?


I fail to see how a series of videos simply discussing the portrayal of female characters in games (which most will agree at the very least has room for improvement) is a "crusade." She has made similar videos about movies and TV shows, and yet the world continues to spin.


Ah yeah. This is a good one.

The ridiculous outrage from a lot of gamers and the downright insane amount of bile spewed at that project all because of the suggestion that we examine the portrayal of women in games does way more to expose the gross sexism at work in the gaming fandom than the project itself could ever hope to. (Which kinda makes the project awesomely meta albeit unintentionally).
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AmpersandsUnited



Joined: 22 Mar 2012
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:19 pm Reply with quote
@Big Hed
I actually got it from /a/. Razz while I don't doubt it can be used to annoy people, it's still pretty true with the way we view female characters.

@ikillchicken
that's only if you view femininity as weak

@Jadress

well for one thing people already do that without begging for near 200,000 dollars to do so. Given this podcast I think we all know women don't have the best representation in games, so what is the documentary going to tell you that you don't already know? she made over 26 times her intended kickstarter goal and I dunno about you, but if I was concerned with helping women, I might donate that 150,000 bucks to breast cancer research charities... charities which help rape and abused women... but I definitely wouldn't pocket it like she did. she could at least use the money to fund a bunch of indie games on steam.. like you said, she already made videos for free, so what will this do those videos haven't already?

but the main reason she gets called out is because of her actions. She plays the victim card anytime anyone criticizes her. she cites that it's just men putting her down and trying to keep her in the kitchen, ignoring all the women who have called her out on her crap. any argument where you censor the opposing views and constructive criticism can not be a meaningful one. when you have to lock down comments and moderate them like the Irate Gamer does, then maybe you're doing something wrong.

I think this video just sums up how pointless and insulting the whole thing really is: http://www.youtube.com/​watch?​v=​igXz_hXKUcE and how she effectively scammed a bunch of people out of money. :\
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4236

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:33 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
@ikillchicken
that's only if you view femininity as weak


But, traditionally, Femininity has been viewed as weak. "Femininity" generally tends to mean "be a subservient doormat who diligently does housework and never aspires for anything more". That's not exactly something girls should aspire to emulate.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5085

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:37 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:


But, traditionally, Femininity has been viewed as weak. "Femininity" generally tends to mean "be a subservient doormat who diligently does housework and never aspires for anything more". That's not exactly something girls should aspire to emulate.


Thats looking at the problem backwards.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:56 pm Reply with quote
How? Traditional female roles have, in almost all cultures, emphasized subservience and repression.
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Jadress



Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 801
Location: Seattle. It purdy and nerdy!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:06 pm Reply with quote
@AmpersandsUnited

First of all, she didn't "beg people for nearly $200,000," she made a kickstarter asking for $6,000 and received way more than she asked for by people voluntarily donating to her project. In what way is this a trick/scam/whatever that she was "begging" for? The Kickstarter page seemed to clearly state what kind of project she was making. Also, part of the reason she received so much more funding than she was even asking for was because many people simply wanted to support her after undergoing an insane campaign of harassment- a backlash against her backlash. I don't know how she plans on using all that money, and yes I agree it would be helpful if she donated some of it, but it's her project and it's up to her.

Also, that video you linked is hilariously hypocritical. The narrator begins by stating that a "good documentary" is one that is unbiased and provides something for people to talk about. This is completely untrue, as there are many many good and critically acclaimed documentaries that clearly hold a point of view- "Food, Inc," "Gasland," and "Collapse" among just a few I can think of offhand. Then he proceeds to present his own "bias"- that Sarkeesian's videos are going to be stupid and pointless and we won't learn anything new from them." I'd like to know how everyone has already figured out how terrible and pointless her videos are going to be when she HASN'T EVEN MADE THEM YET.

That is the crux of why the whole controversy around her is ludicrous. Why on earth would any functioning, secure individual be angry about a video series talking about gender and games? A video series that does not even exist yet. If one thought the concept was dumb, all you'd have to do is ignore it and move on. Instead, there has been hate and vitriol on a whole other level directed at her for even having the audacity to have an opinion about something. She is trying to be SILENCED with threats, and she her opinions are not even out there yet. I don't really understand what she is getting "called out on" and I see no examples of anyone getting "censored." There are thousands of angry men already making videos and posts opposing her, so how is that censorship?
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5085

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:22 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
How? Traditional female roles have, in almost all cultures, emphasized subservience and repression.


The idea is to disconnect "femininity" from those concepts, not to try and impose the 'positive' masculine concepts.

There is nothing inherently wrong with frilly dresses and looking pretty and whatever else is implied by "femininity", just like how there is nothing inherently positive about all the standard "masculine" traits. Both should be value-neutral.

That image posted up-thread, while slightly trollish in intention, does a good job of making this point.

Girls/Women and Boys/Men should be able to express themselves however they want, without those choices reflecting on them through arbitrary cultural norms.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4035

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:23 pm Reply with quote
Big Hed wrote:
As far as costuming undermining characterization, particularly in Japanese games, goes, if it's believable-sexy (full plate suits included in this category), whatever. I think the ultra-skimpy outfits are ridiculous too, and the reason they erode any character-building efforts is because, well, why the hell wouldn't she wear more than a micro bikini when she's putting herself on the receiving end of hollow-point rounds/sharp edges/plasma bolts or what have you.


I think the idea a woman has to dress a certain way to be sexist in itself. What's the difference between saying a woman is not strong or a good character because she exposes some skin and a man calling a woman a whore for wearing a skirt? Women should be able to dress however they want. If Judith wants to wear a midriff baring plate outfit while she fights, she should go ahead. Doesn't change the fact she's well developed and great character. There's a flip side to everything. One can easily say it's oppressing women by not allowing them to dress however they want and is oppressing their rights. What does that make women who wear swimsuits at the beach, exactly? There was also that whole 'slutwalk' fiasco awhile back because a cop told a woman to not wear a skirt if she didn't want to get raped. Women fought for their right to dress in a sexy manner. I will bet money that if a girl gets a date, more than likely she will try to dress up for it and emphasize her good looks.

AmpersandsUnited wrote:
but I do have a picture summary that generally says the same thing you just did on what the media thinks that femininity is bad, masculinity is good Winkhttp://oi50.tinypic.com/​3520jec.​jpg I wish I could find the guy who started the mentality trend of a woman being a woman is sexist and thwap him one.


I made a similar argument before, about how Japan is more open to leaving a female hero be 'girly'. That's probably one reason there's no American version of magical girl stuff. Sadly the idea of being feminine is seen as sexist by a lot of people, for some reason. Maybe I just know weird people, but pretty much all women I'm friends with like dressing attractively and wearing make-up. I wonder if people would tell them they're doing it wrong. Funnily enough, when my female friend got facial hair she said she hated it because it makes her feel like a man. Considering there's people who say a woman should be like a man in media to be a strong character, I found it humerous. The whole idea of "write them as a man, then change the gender" pretty much stems from this. It's probably why those examples on the right side are all tomboys/mannish. I've never agreed with forcing a woman they have to deny the gender they were born as if they want to be weak (though they certainly have the freedom to do so if they desire)

I think the stereotype is mostly just because western men don't want to play as a little girl. I remember tons of people complaining about the main heroines from games like Yunica from Ys Origin, Recctear from Item Shop Tale, and Arche from Fortune Summoner. One review of Fortune Summoner insisted it was for little girls because of Arche being the main protagonist. I guess the whole 'moe' thing makes it so Japanese men are more open about having cute girls as the leads in their games/shows. While western men want to play as Nathan Drake, Commander Shepard, or Master Chief. Big, beefy manly men.

As for the whole 'moe' thing. That's a debate that western fans will continue to debate as well. What does that make K-ON, a series which inspired many elementary to high school girls into taking up music and following their dreams. Dismissing moe as being sexist seems flawed.

Zac wrote:
Whenever someone uses the word 'feminist' like it's a bad thing or some kind of slur it tells me basically all I need to know about their attitude toward this subject.


While not a bad word in itself, it's definitely lost all it's meaning these days and has become a buzzword for the tumblr age. A person who thinks women should be able to do and dress however they want and their body is their own while another who thinks women should burn skirts/dresses and wear pants both call themselves femnists, despite having conflicting views. How does this work, exactly? I think people should explain their views in detail rather than just saying "Oh, I'm a femnist" which doesn't tell anyone anything anymore.
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RogerSterling



Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Posts: 69

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:49 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
RogerSterling wrote:
DmonHiro wrote:
It sounds as if Zac doesn't like moe anime... weird...



Zac's a Male Feminist ....for whatever reason. And he clearly despises things he doesn't understand. Excuse me I have naked cam girls to feed. My lust puts food on some women's tables ya know!


Whenever someone uses the word 'feminist' like it's a bad thing or some kind of slur it tells me basically all I need to know about their attitude toward this subject.


Didn't say it was a 'Bad Thing' - just made a statement saying basically "I know where your head is at". That's how you think and how you 'view issues'. I know that you think that way now - it colors everything you review as an individual. It's OK. Your opinion is what it is.

What's more disturbing is that you chose the refute & comment on the "Feminist comment" - and not even deny or try to touch the comments I made about you having murderous rage against "straight white males" that you intentionally antagonize so you can then 'Play Victim' and justify your rage. You're passive aggressive in the worst way.

You didn't even argue, comment, disavow, or correct me on my trashing of your understanding of " Moe ". I say Feminist and "Ding" Roger gets a food pellet. Sad. Carry on
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Agent355



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 1965
Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready...

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:58 pm Reply with quote
AmpersandsUnited wrote:
Big Hed wrote:
In fact, it frames the issue as if ideal human traits are inherently masculine. What happened to women being the fairer sex?


funny you should mention that. It becomes a frequent topic of debate on /v/ and /co/ when the subject of female leads pops up. It reminds me of this one excellent blog post on the subject I can't find right now, but I do have a picture summary that generally says the same thing you just did on what the media thinks that femininity is bad, masculinity is good Winkhttp://oi50.tinypic.com/​3520jec.​jpg I wish I could find the guy who started the mentality trend of a woman being a woman is sexist and thwap him one.

That is the most ridiculous, out-of-context, straw man argument graphic I've ever seen. Two out of the three main characters chosen to represent "America" are from the same fictional universe, created by the same men, and both Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra have counterexample characters in their own shows!

Toph was first written as a male character and was gender swapped during A:TLA's production process. Her personality is quite masculine. Katara, who was written as female from the start (and is one of the three main characters from the first episode to the last) has an abundance of feminine traits: she's motherly (sometimes to the point of nagging), she cooks for the group, she loves to hug, she wears feminine clothes and jewelry, she's the healer, etc. This never diminishes her determination to fight for herself. Her mix of feminine and masculine traits makes her more identifiable to me than Toph ever was: I see aspects of myself and my sister in her character. I love the fact that she even has some "feminine flaws"-besides for being a nag, she also gets jealous, falls (briefly) for a "bad boy" in Jet, etc.

LoK has only had one short and unfortunately imperfect season thus far, and yet it still included an incredibly feminine character who defied all expectations: Asami. Not to mention that Korra herself was designed to look like a realistically strong young woman, unlike the impossible stylized anatomy of most American Superhero comic heroines and anime/manga heroines (Cough*Orihime & Rangiku from Bleach*Cough).

Tl;Dr--If anyone is using the works of Bryan Konietzko and Michael Dante Dimartino to prove a point about how American media portrays masculinity as "better" or "stronger", they've got their facts wrong.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 6915
Location: Snake Mountain Cocktail Lounge

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:00 pm Reply with quote
RogerSterling wrote:
you having murderous rage against "straight white males"


Because you're not worth my time with garbage like this. That's why I didn't and won't respond further, because you're ridiculous.
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