Forum - View topicNEWS: Media Factory makes request to stop fansubbing
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s_j
Posts: 162 |
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I think many people are overstating the profit margins on DVDs.
Yes, DVDs may cost pennys to produce, but there is the cost of the DVD box, and the paper cover, and the shrink wrap. Those combined are not so cheap, and the press runs for most anime DVDs are still a fraction of the average movie DVD, so the economies of scale do not work in their favor as much as you'd believe. Anime distributors do not earn the total price of each DVD sold. The retailer may get over half of the MSRP, which in turn pays their substantial overhead of running a brick-and-mortar store. If the DVD was sold through another distributor, they may also take a cut of 10 ~ 20%. We also must not forget shipping across U.S., a big expenditure for such a big country. At the end of the day, Anime companies may only end up with 15% of the cover price, which they then must use to pay for their office staff, localization (translators, dubbing, etc.), licensing fees to the Japanese production companies, and in cases of hit series, subsidize other series that did not sell so well. Given all that, how can they be expected to compete with fansubs and pirate copies? |
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ladholyman
 Posts: 56 |
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Unless Comcast Cable is able to show Genshiken or School Rumble on prime time television UNCUT and NOT DUBBED then I see no reason for me not to get fansubs.
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darkhunter
 Posts: 2992 Location: Los Angelas |
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Inuyasha, Samurai Champloo, Kaleistar, Samurai 7 and when Naruto is liscensed, Naruto too. Ethnical code? If one group drop it, anotehr group will pick it up and continue. If a series is popular, no code will stop newer fansub of the series from coming out. There's also an influence factor. Take these two scenario. scenario1: A guy download a fansub and realized he doesn't have to pay to watch his anime. He then tell a friend of his to do the same thing. And then it spread, as more and more people are downloading fansub every day. The effect? More people know about anime but that doesn't mean more people are going to be buying it. Go to the anime forum, u will see ton of people recommend other people to download fansub, even if it's licensed like Samurai Champloo. Here's the thread animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11438 scenario2: A guy buys the Cowboy Bebop Movie DVD, and he enjoy the DVD. He then preview the extra on the DVD and saw an anime that look interesting. He later borrow the DVD (say it's gungrave) and realized that the anime is great. He proceed to buy the gungrave. The series also have extra of other show and it makes him curious. Fansub isn't the only way to preview show folks. Just like videogame, they're not going to let me play the game all the way through and then pay if I like the game. This is true with most people, they get to watch 10 series and then maybe buy 1 if he like it. If not, he'll just proceed to downloading more. In this day and age of music swapping, u can't say that everyone has a high value morals. Also who the heck keep saying that japanese company support fansub? How do u know that's still true today. Maybe back then when fansub was on old tape and anime needed to expand. We have enough good studio that will likely pick up the anime, promote it by providing trailers on website, in magazine and on DVD. Last edited by darkhunter on Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Craeyst Raygal
 Posts: 1383 Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT. |
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I'm royally sick of this.
Fansubs, used to love 'em. Back in the days of diehards with VHS equipment it was nigh sacred work. The guys who'd drop thousands into equipment just so that they could make a couple dozen VHS copies of Violinist Hamelyn or Rose of Versailles gave us a chance to see stuff outside of the norm, stuff that we weren't going to get a legit chance at seeing in the future. But, nowadays instead of serving the community, digital fansubbers act as if they're some sort of counter-culture backlash against the repressive and monolithic anime companies. One too many viewings of Akira, I think. It's ridiculous, really. The only butchering being done is by networks for television (still a vastly conservative audience that would rather have more reruns of Seinfeld than another weird violent Japanese cartoon on the air) and dubs are OPTIONAL VIEWING. As the market explodes, more alternative and obscure anime are licensed. We've gone from solely girls, guns, and robots to friggin' Kodomo no Omocha! Unless there is not an official release, there is never a fansub which is superior to an official LEGAL release. It's time for the digisubbers to get off their high horse and learn the truth about the damage they do to what's become a massive industry. Was it in part due to their past efforts? Absolutely. Should they still be involved in anime's growth? Certainly? Should it be through blatant piracy especially when they are asked by the creators to stop? Unhesitatingly no. Run a convention. Open a shop. Write reviews. Start a website. Become a translator for one of the companies instead of against. There's an incredible "with us or against us" attitude spreading amongst anime fans. Unfortunately for the fansubbers, the people with them are pirates and bootleggers, and the people with the companies are the world's legal systems and dedicated fans everywhere. |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10420 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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Not sure where you got that definition. Piracy is the unlawful (not unauthorized) duplication OR sale of copyrighted material. -t |
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AchtungAffen
Posts: 26 Location: Sur, paredón y después |
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Never heard of "Selecta Vision", didn't you? |
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Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10420 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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Although I agree with you, I would like to point out that at least 1 of the above titles is licensed. At this point, there isn't a single anime that has no chance of being licensed. But its true that there are many that are "unlikely to be licensed any time soon." As it stands, I have no idea how long the company that licensed the above title is going to sit on it before announcing it. -t |
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MTierce
Posts: 33 |
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If this really is a status-quo shattering precedent and not just a bump on the road the anime industry is now traveling, then I think it doesn’t bode well for the future of anime outside of Japan. I think fansubs are being underestimated in what they actually do for the industry here. Certainly they do cause some lost sales. But realistically, how many people would have heard or cared about Full Metal Alchemist in the US if not for fansubs? I imagine a great deal less than now, and that was for a hugely popular show. How many shows have been licensed in the US that were not fansubbed, or were not a sequel to an already popular series? I personally know of no examples. How many new shows in Japan that haven't been fansubbed do you anything about? Probably not many.
If the current order changes and fansubbing is reduced to a great extent I think the domestic industry may really implode. Certainly the growth that it has gone through over the last few years will be a memory only, for a simple reason: How likely are you to go to a store and buy a DVD with four episodes of a show you have never seen, when it’s going to cost you 30 bucks a pop. Some people will of course, but I think a lot of the fans won't. They'll wait till they have some idea of what the show is before they commit large cash payments to a show. At the very least this will slow sales and cut into profits at a time when the industry is experiencing tremendous growth. If the industry is to survive a shift like this, it will have to radically alter its current business model. We might see promo discs of the first few episodes of a series distributed by the companies themselves, we'd probably see streaming episodes online (in fact this has already happened.) If current trends continued, we might see US companies working with Japanese companies as the shows are being made, and releasing episodes quickly, say within a few weeks of the Japanese broadcast. If these types of changes were made the industry might eventually recover, but it would be a painful process, and the economics would be horrible. I honestly think that the industry is heading in this direction already, but the current order is still necessary for several reasons. First, the domestic market is still not mainstream enough to support itself independently. When cable can support several channels featuring anime either exclusively or in large proportions of programming, and when that is Uncut, and at least some is in Japanese with subtitles, I don't think that the industry can sustain itself without fansubs to stir up base support. Second is that I still think fansubs work to keep some licensing companies honest. Companies like 4Kids and Funimation are called to account for "creative" editing done to Japanese anime, and that is certainly because fans of a particular show through fansubs wanting the show to be as unaltered and true to the original as possible. Do we really want to go back to the days of Robotech, when only the hard-core otaku knew that the show they were watching was hacked to death? Third, there still is a censorship issue, even with DVDs. Witness Elfen Lied, which will be missing an episode on the official US release. Finally, not every worthwhile series in Japan is going to be licensed in the US, and fansubs allow fans of those series the ability to view series they would never otherwise be able to see. Fansubs are still play an important role in the industry, even if they are abused by some people. They will continue to be important to the fans and the industry until the day when we can turn on our TV's and watch Uncut anime in Japanese, and go to the store and buy the DVD's of a series that we like, and that we've seen enough of to know that we like it. That day is coming, but its not here yet, and if fansubbing stops now, it may never come. |
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Craeyst Raygal
Posts: 1383 Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT. |
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Hmm, dissecting your argument really points out a lot of flaws in the fansub case.
First off, you admit that fansubs do cost the companies sales. Guess what. That moves their elimination up to NUMRERO UNO on the "things we gotta do to stay in the black this year" list at anime companies. You bring up Full Metal Alchemist as an example of how fansubs have bred a popular series on television, but later point that fansubs are superior as they come out sooner and are in the original Japanese. So, let me get this straight. You're saying that people who prefer the anime Full Metal Alchemist in its original Japanese language AND that have already seen the show much earlier thanks to fansubs make up the bulk of the Adult Swim FMA audience? |
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Steventheeunuch
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Fullmetal Alchemist was aquired because it was attached to several Squaresoft Games, and was appropriate for the Adult Swim block on CN, plus it was a very successful show in Japan, which has been FUNimations motivations behind aquiring any series. While Fullmetal Alchemist WAS a very popular show on fansub, don't under-estimate it's current appeal on CN, which will eventually bleed into DVD sales aswell. Big O had one VHS fansub run, and then was abandoned. Bandai Ent. picked it up, ran it on CN, and it was so popular that CN decided to fund the next 13 episodes.
half right there, Geneon USA are taking a bit more charge when it comes to their involvement in Anime, co-producing things such as Texhnolyze, Haibane Renmei, Burn Up Scramble, etc
4Kids aquire series based on their ability to sell merchandise, and not all of their shows are worth actually releasing uncut (Yu-Gi-Oh! comes to mind here). FUNimation have already done their business with DBZ/GT, and have moved on from such things (with exception to Case Closed/Detective Conan, but that was due to TMS and the Doyle Estate, not nessecerally FUNimation's desicion). Elfen Lied will remain uncut, as have hundreds of other discs in the past with content as strong or stronger than that. Even GantZ will have an uncut release using the DVD masters from the Japanese R2 release. But I digress... who cares? The titles haven't been officially announced, Media Industries Inc. haven't taken legal action against groups that fansub these series, they've simply removed a larger reference point. Lets not jump to conlusions, everyone. |
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kgptzac
 Posts: 22 Location: Neither Heaven nor Hell |
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and another fictional fact:
what if every company contact Animesuki.com and ask the head of the website to stop listing their stuff... that will kill animesuki, lol. it's really funny when they tried so hard to bring down a bt collection site rather than stop fansubbing. They are lame. They said that it is most likely they will win on the court because no real animes are hosted on the website. But then he said he personally doesn't get too involved.... This is outrages, if he kneel before the first enemy, the rest of the fate will be clear... |
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MTierce
Posts: 33 |
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Elfen Lied uncut? Not what I heard, but I could be mistaken. I was under the impression that since the show is graphicly violent and depicts nudity in characters that are obviously under age 18, ADV thought that they might be violating certain US laws. And so large portions of the show were going to be deleted from the DVD release, if you can point out evidence that I'm in error, I would appreciate it. Even if I am wrong, all that is needed to illustrate my point is a visit to anime prime http://www.animeprime.com/edit/
As for FMA, I was just using it as an example, not every show is going to be broadcast on CN. Its probably a bad example. My point is that if the industry is limited to CN shows for the majority of their sales, then the industry is headed for a nosedive. Fansubs expand the base of popular shows, allowing highly successful fansubs to become successful liscened shows, in the end this makes the companies money. I believe that if there were no fansubs at all, at this point in time, the industry would collapse in on itself. This is the argument I was trying to make. Thus it would be a bad move for the companies to completely eliminate fansubs. I don't really want to argue the ethics of fansubs, suffice it to say that I am not really happy with the US anime industry as a whole right now. I do support it, (the only things I have spent more money on than anime are school and my car. I import items from Japan. Note that importing items can be illegal too. Does that really make any sense?) I would like to see the day when US companies treat anime as bona fide art, don't screw around with the shows for whatever reason, and make it so that we can see shows quickly soon after they are released in Japan. If the US industry facilitated that, I would happily give them as much money as I could afford to (likely more than I could afford to), and fansubs would be compeltely unnecessary. |
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DrWho2002
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I doubt that very much at all. There were no fansubs of shows like Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh before they were brought over here. How do you think they got popular over here then? dumb luck? I don't think so. I don't think your argument has any merit anymore in this day. It might have been true 5-10 years ago, but not today. |
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bluechibi
Posts: 137 |
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What are these benefits that fansubbing bring to the Japanese companies that makes these animes? Someone tell me.
Lets me go on Kazaa and see what free licensed animes you can download thanks to fansub piracy years ago. (All episodes, movies, oavs unless stated) Ranma 1/2, Inuyasha, FLCL, Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, Pilot Candidate, Dragonball, Dragonball Z, Dragonball GT, Chobits, Excel Saga, Full Metal Panic, Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu, FullMetal Alchemist, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, GTO, Hellsing, Gundam Wing, His & Hers Circumstances, Initial D, Mahoromatic, Maison Ikkoku, Neon Genesis Evangelion, RahXephon, Utena, Rurouni Kenshin, Sailor Moon...... you get the idea, type in any anime you can think of and it's likely ready for you to download. It's suprising how many people are still sharing fansubs after all these yeas. You wont have much trouble downloading every single episode, movie or OAV it seems. I love how fansub fans say they use it to test a series, why download all of it then? They say they want to do animes that have no chance of being license. Then why have they practically licensed every anime and why most of them like DNA2 end yo getting picked up anyway. Who are they to judge what will and will not be picked up outside of Japan. Fansubs expand the base of popular shows, allowing highly successful fansubs to become successful liscened shows, in the end this makes the companies money What the hell are you on about? The show was popular in Japan, a huge hit, we didn't need fansubbers to tell us it was a good show. What happens when FMA does get picked up, how do the fansub fans respond? "How DARE they license this anime!!!!!!!!!" getting all angry and disappointed that they can't have their free anime anymore. Last edited by bluechibi on Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bluechibi
Posts: 137 |
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LOL you have got to be kidding.  So the billion $ industry will just crash like that? Because people who download free anime can't do it anymore? Heh!!
The only thing that will happen is fansub fans wont have anything to watch for free anymore. The End. I really do hope the other companies stop people from pirating their works with fansubs. They're not needed anymore, this isn't the 90ies. |
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