Forum - View topicBest Gundam series?
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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No no no, you didn't bother me. I was just helpfully correcting what I thought was a mistake on your part. I don't tend to lump Gundam SEED Destiny in with Gundam SEED. That's because it (SEED Destiny) completely destroys my faith and enjoyment in the Cosmic Era franchise as it decimates the characters, themes and plot from SEED. Therefore, I like to pretend SEED Destiny doesn't exist. Should you ever watch SEED, and should you enjoy it, do not watch SEED Destiny. It is as simple as that. |
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FaytLein
Posts: 1260 Location: Williamsburg, VA |
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Let me first preface this as I have seen virtually all Gundam series (except Turn A and Destiny), and am a huge robot fan, so let me run throw out my admittedly slightly skewed opinions.
Mobile Suit Gundam-1979 MSG, lets face facts. Its 30 years old, and animation wise, has not aged very well. The beginning story arcs have some simply horrific episodes in them but by the midpoint the pace picks up quite a bit, and still stands as a classic title, but looking for the movie version might be better to look for since it hacks away the slower parts and creates a tighter narrative. Zeta Gundam-1985 Zeta Gundam, before its domestic release was heralded as the "dark" Gundam series, with a very high death count and a bittersweet ending but this is where Tomino's after-the-fact stoytelling starts up, with characters doing things for stupid, STUPID reasons, all in the name of storytelling. Zeta doesn't suffer from MSG's early craptastic episodes and is fairly more....mature in its handling of its content than MSG, but requires an understanding of Tomino storytelling. Double Zeta-1986 Direct continuation of Zeta, ZZ is half comedy, half serious show that requires research of the series beforehand so all the bizarre plot twists will actually make some sense. Avoid it unless you are a die-hard fan. Char's Counterattack-1988 A movie that requires you to have seen MSG and Zeta to understand the rivalry between the two main characters. The Tomino quotient is rather subdued here, as the three teenage characters do incredibly dumb things. However, the ending is pretty epic and provides a satisfying finish to the whole Zeon/Federation storyline. Gundam 0080-1989 Very light use of robot action, so it'll dissapoint you if that is your thing, but the characters are quite simply some of the best in the Gundam universe, and is totally Tomino free. Should be seen by everyone. Gundam F91-1991 A very poorly executed compilation movie of a planned TV series, F91 simply suffers from too much going on for a good story to be based on. But there is a pretty decent final fight between the hero and his Darth Vader ripoff piloting a giant tentacled flower that releases robots with buzzsaws to kill people. Gundam 0083-1991 A very flashy but kind of empty OVA thast suffered from a change of directors near the midpoint which ditches the somewhat more well thoughtout beginning to only give us a Tomino-esque ending part, which is odd because Tomino was nowhere near this one. Pick it up if you like mecha battles, but otherwise could be skipped. Victory Gundam-1993 Tomino in full depression mode doesn't even seem to let the sun come out in this show, which is possibly darker than Zeta Gundam, but without a solid direction to carry the show, and the last few episodes are quite literally nonsensical based on the beginning episodes. And if you ask Tomino about it, he'll call you an idiot for watching it and throw models at you. G Gundam-1994 An Imagawa show, its full of bravado and nonsensical martial artist action but still manages to have an air of seriousness in the face of fish Gundam, Viking Gundams, Windmill Gundams and an over-the-top character like Master Asia. More super robot than real robot, its a pretty hit or miss show, you'll either love it to pieces or think its the stupidest thing ever. Gundam Wing-1995 A show about pretty boys in invincible robots fighting for PACIFISM. A fairly light retelling of MSG through CCA, the characters and robots heavily appeal to just about everybody. And besides, odds are if you know about Gundam, you've already seen it. The movie is pretty good too. 08th MS Team-1996 Arguably the most popular Gundam OVA in the States, 08th adds an element of realism with some pretty good robot battles, and inter-character interaction, but the love story angle is utterly overblown and doesn't seem sincere in the slightest. Watch for the battles, ignore the romance. Gundam X-1996 A what-if on the Universal Century in which almost everyone has died would be great fodder for a series, and while X tries to deliver, it simply can't reach its goal. Arguably the most romance focused Gundam show, the couple in question simply doesn't even talk or interact with each other (granted, Tifa has an excuse) but the romance is portrayed as a central part of the story, which doesn't hold water, sadly. Plus the Frost Bros. are jerks. Gundam SEED-2002 Call me an old elitst all you want, but I simply don't like SEED. Far too much melodrama, and an ubermensch lead that is utterly unsympathetic to most watches. Battles are pretty interesting, to the point that most characters aside from the leads are basically talking heads with very little to do with the actual story. That's my views, and I know its long, so bear with my fanboyism. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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I'll never understand why people single out SEED for it's melodrama. I mean, isn't calling a Gundam series melodramatic a little like stating that it has giant robots in it? With maybe a couple exceptions, they're all like that. It's not even just the ones UC fans view as the bad series either. Zeta is just as melodramatic as SEED.
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Excuse me, but Zeta's melodrama level is unmeasurable, for two reasons. The first is - unsurprisingly - that it is off the scale, and the second is that no-one - especially myself, but also the fans of it - wants to sit down and make a tally. If I have to hear once more Kamille endlessly exclaiming "Four!" after knowing her for just a few minutes, then I'll barf. And Katz . . . I laughed when he died. I really was that happy. That characters such as him (not to mention Quess) survive as long as they do is an insult to the human race, not to mention my eyes, ears and brain. Really, the UC shows often struck me as being willing to kill off characters not to move the plot or develop the survivors, but to just provide pointless (melo)drama. Also, SEED did focus on the side characters a bit more than what I've seen in other titles in the franchise. Sai, Fllay, Murrue, Mwu, Yzak, Dearka and Miriallia; all were side characters, and all got more history and/or development than just a photo or a brief flashback or being a butt monkey. Even Rau got a better personality than most Gundam villains; a bit more effort to develop him would have worked wonders. |
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penguintruth
Posts: 8461 Location: Penguinopolis |
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All right, I've had about enough of this.
dtm42 wants to label Zeta as melodramatic, but he's defending a show that is basically weepy, personality-deprived idiots with no presence piloting awfully designed mecha for a non-existent plot. Honestly, SEED is such a watered-down copycat, one wonders why anyone could defend it, except perhaps in comparison to its sequel. Meanwhile, Zeta Gundam is a masterpiece that pushes the desperate, often losing struggle against an out-of-control government force and develops its themes beautifully by pushing its characters to their limits in its complex storytelling. Rau was a great villain? He has literally no motivation whatsoever, and he comes off has having no presence at all. When he shows up, he doesn't create a stir in even the minds of the other characters, let alone the audience. Boring as paste. CE Gundam was a disaster through and through. SEED set it up, Destiny just proved it to the hangers-on. It is the definition of generic, plastic-looking anime with no character. As far as I'm concerned, shows like SEED are exactly what is wrong with anime. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Hey penguintruth, have you read this thread? Just look at the title. What's wrong with Anime are fans who blindly believe that titles which are little more than pieces of garbage are actually Masterpieces which should never be criticised. It is people like you that is to blame for what is wrong with Anime. Rau's motivation is simple. spoiler[He's dying, and wants to kill everyone before he goes himself. That's why he helped both the PLANTS and OMNI , to ensure their mutual destruction.] Like I said, simple, but that doesn't make it a weak motivation. Okay, now what was Scirocco's motivation? Can you really argue that it was better than Rau's? Zeta Gundam is not a Masterpiece: --- It has a dark atmosphere to try and be edgy and cool, but fails miserably. War is no picnic, but the show took it to an extreme with its attitude. --- It has characters beating each other up for no reason ("violence porn"). --- It has characters that fall madly (and I use that word deliberately) in love with one another at first sight, no matter if they are enemies who killed their comrades. --- It has characters doing such stupid, stupid STUPID acts that I realised they weren't characters at all but instead melodramatic robots. Because no human could be that stupid. --- Lastly (of the things I will list here, not the things I have a gripe with), the ending completely destroyed any chance of Zeta ever being called a Real Robot show. I mean, the titular Gundam spoiler[going Super Saiyan?] Oh please. The sad part is that the show up to the last few episodes had been good at keeping to the Real Robot theme, only to crap all over its own hard work. And before you mention Char's Counterattack, let me assure you that it too made the same mistake. I gave both titles a deserved Weak rating, and am determined to never watch either again. Heck, even the much-derided Wing is better. Maybe I can flog off my ultra-expensive Zeta R1 DVDs on Trademe and try to get some of my money back. That's assuming there is another person in New Zealand stupid enough to buy them off me. As for my twenty hours for Zeta, and almost two hours for Char's Counterattack, I'll never get them back, but at least I can warn other people just how bad they are. |
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penguintruth
Posts: 8461 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Criticism is one thing, when you can support it with valid arguments. Yours are just ridiculous. I don't recall ever saying Zeta Gundam was perfect. It has its flaws, but you haven't voiced any legitimate criticisms.
That's an utterly retarded reason. Rau lived a life where spoiler[he was catered to as a perfect clone], whereas Mu was the one who was cast out, and yet Mu was fine and Rau was the maniac. Scirocco was trspoiler[ying to create a society where the elite talent like him, powerful Newtypes, would control everyone else. The first step was to gain control of the Federation.] And yes, that is a much better motivation.
It succeeds swimmingly. It's not trying to be edgy, it is. It's a more mature, honest take on war, especially given SEED's plastic cliches.
It has characters who are pushed to their limits, and in extreme situations people can be unreasonable. Plus, most of the more violent people in the show are, in fact, terrible people.
Newtype connection is not the same as falling in love. Kamille and others feel like they're in love, because they're young and foolish.
It has characters acting realistically in desperate situations. Unlike the CE characters who are too bland to even consider stupid. They have literally no personalities. They're just puppets being pulled by strings.
You're wrong to take everything in a Tomino show at face value. First of all, the Zeta Gundam didn't "go Super Saiyan", Kamille concentrated his Newtype power and summoned the lingering minds of other characters. It was built up to like all extravagant Newtype reactions in UC Gundam, unlike the random power ups of CE Gundam. The ending of the show is pitch perfect, by the way, and is part of why it's such a masterpiece. As for "real/super" distinctions, you take them too seriously. Zeta Gundam is a real robot show because the robots themselves don't have superpowers, they work with the powers of the characters. I'll continue to warn people of the plastic, hallow anime out there like Gundam SEED, which just takes the basics of the original show but none of the effort the writers took to make it unique and colorful. It felt like they just added a lot of crying because they hoped people would mistake it for characterization. Unfortunately, people like you did. But by all means, enjoy your shallow, plastic garbage. I enjoy Zeta Gundam because of its complexities in the plotline, the realism of its characters, the maturity in its scenarios, and the honesty of its approach. And likewise, I enjoy Char's Counterattack for many of the same reasons. |
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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I'll suppose it's about time to re-state my views on this subject.
Zeta was one of the first Gundam series I ever watched and did leave a lasting impression on me. However, there's definitely a lot of truth behind the claim that the show's been treated as something of a sacred cow throughout the years. I don't think it's garbage, not at all, but I can't say there are no visible cracks in its armor either. Many of them are actually common knowledge even among experienced mecha fans. For example, to address one of the issues dtm42 brought up...I believe the spoiler[bio-sensor], which plays a key role in the later episodes and the finale in particular, was never actually introduced nor explained within the show itself. It's not an exaggeration to say it was a sudden "power-up" that wasn't properly handled and it's long been considered an outstanding issue. Viewers have been asking questions about it from time to time and there's little doubt that, one way or another, something went wrong there. And there are other concerns too, such as how Katz seemed to be given a lot more free rein than Kamille despite his obvious incompetence, or how the same basic "doomed Newtype" character arc was repeated about three or four times. Incidentally, spoiler[ Four herself literally goes through it twice, after somehow surviving a situation that should have meant her death (and did...when Tomino came back to make the movie adaptations)]. Personally, I treat Zeta as a series that was innovative enough for its time and its influence has remained throughout the decades in spite of its flaws. Whether or not those cracks take too much away from the show or prevent it from being considered a masterpiece depends on what viewers are willing to put up with. My opinion lies somewhere in the middle. For some Tomino's own darker and near-nihilistic directorial tendencies are a complete turn-off, for others they are signs of brilliance and realism...for me they were occasionally successful, but I'm not going to deny that they make shows like Zeta a lot harder to re-watch. Last edited by nightjuan on Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:54 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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JGonspy
Posts: 70 Location: Toronto |
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I don't mean to get in the middle of this little discussion, but I just wanted to clarify something. spoiler[Rau's motivation is actually the fact that he was created solely to serve another's vanity. More than just a coordinator, by also being a clone he has no identity of his own either. Even more troubling to him is that even as a science project, he was only created to fund the creation of Kira, hence the grudge he bears towards him. His desire to wipe out both side in the conflict is a manifestation of his own deluded belief that humanity is vain and self destructive. So he pushes along both sides as the only person who truly has no side of his own.] That's a somewhat shallow reading, and a bit incomplete, but I thought it was worth mentioning. You guys can go back to arguing now. |
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penguintruth
Posts: 8461 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Characters had been playing with their Newtype powers for several episodes before the finale, it was building up gradually, even ever since the first series.
Katz had potential. He and the other White Base orphans were the ones who led Amuro out of A Bao Qu at the end of the original series, even when the others couldn't. Anyway, Bright clearly expected Kamille to rein in Katz, thinking it was a good way for him to mature. And while he did, Katz was a little too out of control. Katz is a tragedy, because he confused his desire for Sarah for love. The Argama crew was too busy dealing with the Titans to guide Katz well enough. As for Four, I was rather disappointed they cut the Kilamanjaro arc from the movies. The Hong Kong arc wasn't enough to establish Four's attachment to Kamille.
Tomino isn't for everyone, I guess. |
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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That would be fine as a general thematic concept but in this specific case I don't think the real issue is spoiler[the appearance of those Newtype "ghosts" that shielded Kamille from Scirocco, but the fact that the Zeta Gundam itself suddenly became visibly more powerful on the physical plane, including being protected from attacks and being able to use stronger beams. Newtypes interacting with other Newtypes is one thing...having a mobile suit with an unexplained and not previously introduced system interact with the same is another issue entirely.]. In addition to the link I posted above, here are other relevant sources. To quote Wikipedia: spoiler["One unique feature of the unit was that it employed a bio-sensor system which allowed a brief surge of unusual power and made the Zeta Gundam nearly invincible against any attacks on occasions."] Taken from Mark Simmons' current website: spoiler["The Zeta Gundam also seems to have partially incorporated the bio-sensor, although this is unconfirmed, and past a certain level it seems to have been manifesting the power of its pilot Kamille Bidan."]
I can understand that, but I also see why that would be an annoyance for viewers expecting him to be disciplined, at the very least, particularly when physical violence was being used rather liberally against Kamille and a number of other characters. To be honest, the fact that I haven't seen the series in years probably helps me forget just how much it did or didn't bother me at the time.
My complaint is a bit ironic, because I actually also preferred that same arc to Four's original appearance, but there's no denying that Tomino was trying to make essentially the same point not just once but multiple times (and he did so with other characters too).
That's certainly an understatement. I'm just glad that, in time, he also developed a more lighthearted side. |
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penguintruth
Posts: 8461 Location: Penguinopolis |
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I think you need to look at the situations these things occur rather than the fact they occur. Though the fact they use the bio-sensor as an excuse is a bit of a flaw. If they never mentioned a bio-sensor at all, I think it would have been more incorporeal and up to interpretation. So, yeah, in a way, the bio-sensor is a bit of a flaw, but the things Zeta did make a sort of sense given the situations and previous ones.
I don't understand the expectation for characters who are a ragtag bunch of rebels to be super disciplined, especially a teenage kid who never got over his hero worship. Would it have been nice if Katz lived up to his potential? Yeah, but that's' the point. He doesn't. That's the tragedy. The AEUG can hardly be picky about who they get to pilot. Katz was a bit better than Fa, I thought.
If you're talking about Rosamia/Rosammy, then I suppose you have a point. But I think it was used as a way to set up the conclusion. Kamille was trying to prevent other people from sacrificing themselves, bspoiler[ut not only couldn't he save Four, but he had to kill Rosamia himself. After that, it makes sense he would put it all on the line to stop Scirocco.]
Which, much like his darker side, can produce mixed results. |
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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I wouldn't say it's impossible to make sense out of it...but that's not exactly something everyone will be satisfied with in the absence of a proper explanation during the show, even if you can rationalize it after the fact or somehow link it to past events. Particularly when the closest thing to an explanation is a rather vague, throwaway line from a fatally wounded character (as tragic as that scene was, but...well, that opens up yet another can of worms).
Again, if the show hadn't made such a big deal out of disciplining Kamille earlier on perhaps that expectation wouldn't have been created in the first place. You could say people usually don't like double standards, even if they can be explained away.
Sure, but he pulled off dangerous stunts that placed lives and important pieces of equipment in jeopardy. He also did so in such an annoying way that, as far as I can sincerely tell, very few viewers have ever sympathized with him and spoiler[cheering his death is not uncommon at all.]
Yes. It worked as character development for Kamille, I'll give you that, but not for the other characters involved.
True enough. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Um, the first forty percent of ZZ Gundam begs to differ. As for the biosensor, it wasn't explained in the show, it was a retcon, just like the Hyaku Shiki's beam-deflecting armour. Not once in the series did we see it actually deflect a beam, not once. And yet, apologists will try try and state that it was there from the beginning. Back to the biosensor, it was a crappy attempt to explain why the Zeta suddenly pulled a deux ex machina out of its arse. I don't recall any of the instances where supposedly it had demonstrated unusual abilities before the final three or so episodes. And since penguintruth you didn't give any specific examples, I'm thinking neither do you. Because there were none. |
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penguintruth
Posts: 8461 Location: Penguinopolis |
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I was like that at first, too. But when I rewatched it, I felt myself feeling bad for him, instead. And I've felt that way with every new rewatch.
In the episode before the final one, Kamille's beam saber grows longer due to his rage. Before that, he shielded himself with his Newtype powers. Just a few episode previously, the Newtypes were dueling with their minds. In his first appearance, Scirocco was using his ability to assert "pressure" to prevent Char from wiping him out with the large laser cannon. In the original series, Amuro and Lalah dueled with their minds. It didn't just come out of nowhere. |
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