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samuelp



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 1551
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:23 am Reply with quote
Hypeathon wrote:
samuelp wrote:
The alternative translation without a note would be
to use "old man Benjamin Franklin", but that's an americanization.

Or you could just put in parenthesis within the sentence on the bottom of the screen, "man on the 10,000 yen bill." I don't understand why because I said I found a translation note distracting, that automatically means we can assume I want Americanization instead.

Actually we do that for things like untranslatable puns or wordplay (shiritori, for example).

Putting things in parenthesis however I reserve for wordplay issues like spelling/rhymes, etc. For explanatory notes I put them a bit out of the way.

Anyway I didn't mean to accuse you specifically of wanting americanization, I was responding to the more general point of localization philosophy. I'm happy to discuss subtitling techniques for notes though, but that's actually a bit off topic.
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JesuOtaku
ANN Assistant Editor


Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 2717
Location: SoCal

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:09 am Reply with quote
Ooh~ a topic that I particularly love. ^U^ I make no bones about loving Funimation's philosophy/approach to dubbing, even if I disagree sometimes on how something was translated here and there in specific instances, as ya do, I am continually super-grateful that there's at least one dubbing company that *gets* how to write adaptive scripts for a wide english-speaking audience in 100% of their material. I like that the approach is being promoted/is pretty uniform through Funi, because other studios...seems to depend on the writer or on the day. (Madoka Magica, good adaptive script. Durarara!! ... what the ... what. Nigh incomprehensible in a few scenes.)

In Tatum's case specifically, just want to thank him again for his hard work in making Romeo x Juliet something really special in English, in all honesty elevating the writing quality along with just the language use. I own and rewatch that show pretty much just because of the dub. Kudos on the ADR work there. (And to all the people that helped write it, too, Taliesin Jaffe, Patrick Seitz, etc. That must have been a lot of work, and it certainly hasn't gone unappreciated. ^O^ d )

On that note, something I noticed in this episode, when Tatum said that all his projects mean something to him and he loves all of them, and Zac chuckled a little bit and said "Really?" it was a weird moment for me because I can see both sides of this situation and what it means to both occupations, Tatum's and Zac's, that is.

Like, from the perspective of a critic, like Zac, it seems ridiculous that you could love and be deeply invested in all of your projects. I mean, let's face it, Funi licenses a lot of schlock n' titty shows, dumb comedies, and the occasional beautiful *mess.* (Corpse Princess...uuugh.) From a critical standpoint, if you get assigned to something bad or even just mediocre, it seems false to say you loved writing for it or acting in it or directing it, etc. That doesn't make sense.

But from the perspective of a director/actor/writer, it makes *perfect* sense. If you come into a project not thinking the world of it, you're already pretty much guaranteeing a lackluster end game and probably not a lot of fun along the way. But at the same time, if you're "forcing" yourself to care about even a "meh" project, you don't really have the heart for directing/writing/acting either. You should sorta innately care because that's part of the fun. Hm. Uh. Let me try to put down what's in my brain in just one paragraph, because it's been weighing on my mind a lot lately in my efforts to do my own writing and directing.

If you really honestly can *not* fully believe in and invest yourself into the project you're assigned to, it's gonna come out sounding that way, and you shouldn't be doing it. So you find a way to lose yourself in the material. As an actor, you absorb yourself into the character you're playing, see the world he/she's in from their perspective, and in this way you care as much about the material as your character does. If there's not enough of a character there, then as an actor, you make stuff up, insert mental details as they naturally come to you, until they seem like they're as real a person as you are. As a writer you do this with ALL the characters as well as the world itself and how it might cause them all to speak or act, which is exhausting, but it makes your voice for the story uniform, and each character's voice unique, and that combination (hopefully) makes the director and actors' jobs easier. And as a director, well, in some little ways you become a critic as you try to figure out what the story is really about and what should be carried across the strongest. You juggle the work of everyone else, you wear their hats for little pieces at a time, and most of all you believe in the story you're adapting as strongly as if it were your own, (if possible,) while constantly reminding yourself that it's not, and to be faithful to the original material. Uh. Anime hyper No wonder they say adaptation is a thankless task. I think it's my favorite kind of writing, though.

Again, if you can't *do* that, you're on the wrong project or possibly in the wrong line of work. If you're in the right line of work, you'll know, because adapting yourself to material as it adapts itself to you isn't a chore, it's a lot of fun! ^W^
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noigeL



Joined: 14 Feb 2012
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:09 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
"If the Japanese line is to make the audience laugh then the English line should be, accuracy be damned" is way too dismissive.


I haven't listened to the show yet but I think it all comes down to how he interprets accuracy. Some people see that word as having a ridid implication that eliminates the ability to do any real adaptation of the dialog.

I'm of the opinion that the dub should communicate the same information and the same intent as the original version. I personally think that outlook allows for quite a bit of room for adaptation and creative license. A dub such as Virtua Fighter has been described to me as "grossly inaccurate" and I respectfully disagree with that assessment; the Virtua Fighter dub absolutely satisfies my preference of having the same information and intent from the original communicated in English. There's no changes to the characters, the plot is the same and no one says anything that conflicts with what is happening in the animation.
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noigeL



Joined: 14 Feb 2012
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:19 pm Reply with quote
lostrune wrote:
So no bad Sarah Palin or Britney Spears jokes? Laughing


That's the kind of approch I don't care so much for. "I'm gonna make a reference to this thing/person and I'm gonna reference it here, dammit" or "I want to write Hilary Haag's character with a lot of profanity, not because I truly think it's the right thing for this show but because *I* find it funny when she swears." That's not doing right by the fans. That sort of approach also tends to awkwardly date the material. As we all know, Britney Spears is no virgin, and hasn't been for quite a number of years.

I don't mind re-writes that are based on what is happening in the animation. The Macross Plus dub is great for that. Example: when Isamu is taking the freckled blond woman for a bike ride and she says "I want to mourn the late Isamu, not join him!" in reaction to his reckless driving, is that in the original? No.* Is she referencing the previous scene where Isamu crashed/died in a simulator? Yes, she is, and therefore her dialog feels perfectly compatible with the show itself.

*Subtitled line is "I don't want to commit double suicide with you!!" if anyone was curious.
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:53 pm Reply with quote
JesuOtaku wrote:
Ooh~ a topic that I particularly love. ^U^ I make no bones about loving Funimation's philosophy/approach to dubbing, even if I disagree sometimes on how something was translated here and there in specific instances, as ya do, I am continually super-grateful that there's at least one dubbing company that *gets* how to write adaptive scripts for a wide english-speaking audience in 100% of their material. I like that the approach is being promoted/is pretty uniform through Funi, because other studios...seems to depend on the writer or on the day. (Madoka Magica, good adaptive script. Durarara!! ... what the ... what. Nigh incomprehensible in a few scenes.)


Funimation dubs are decent, but hardly exceptional. Look at the work Animaze does/did (haven't done a thing in years, though).

Funimation is perhaps more uniform, but rarely hit it out of the park the way that some other studios do.
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noigeL



Joined: 14 Feb 2012
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:01 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
Funimation dubs are decent, but hardly exceptional. Look at the work Animaze does/did (haven't done a thing in years, though).

Funimation is perhaps more uniform, but rarely hit it out of the park the way that some other studios do.


I miss me some Animaze dubbing but simply name-dropping that studio does nothing to explain why FUNi's dubbing is "decent but hardly exceptional."
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:30 pm Reply with quote
noigeL wrote:
penguintruth wrote:
Funimation dubs are decent, but hardly exceptional. Look at the work Animaze does/did (haven't done a thing in years, though).

Funimation is perhaps more uniform, but rarely hit it out of the park the way that some other studios do.


I miss me some Animaze dubbing but simply name-dropping that studio does nothing to explain why FUNi's dubbing is "decent but hardly exceptional."


Funimation still has some bad habits, including lines of dialogue that have nothing to do with the original script or even the situation at hand in scenes of even their most accurate dubs. I know other studios do that too, but with Funimation it seems like a weird compulsion on the part of the writers to put their own stamp on a dub. They just can't resist adding references to things that are unrelated to the show at hand.

And I don't think they get as much out of their voice actors as some other studios do.

Don't get me wrong. They have a great talent pool. They've put out some good dubs, even a few great ones, but not a lot of amazing ones, ones that blow me away. Outside of Baccano.

(With Bandai Ent. not really in the business anymore, I guess Animaze is a thing of the past.)
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 6907
Location: Snake Mountain Cocktail Lounge

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:40 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
noigeL wrote:
penguintruth wrote:
Funimation dubs are decent, but hardly exceptional. Look at the work Animaze does/did (haven't done a thing in years, though).

Funimation is perhaps more uniform, but rarely hit it out of the park the way that some other studios do.


I miss me some Animaze dubbing but simply name-dropping that studio does nothing to explain why FUNi's dubbing is "decent but hardly exceptional."


Funimation still has some bad habits, including lines of dialogue that have nothing to do with the original script or even the situation at hand in scenes of even their most accurate dubs. I know other studios do that too, but with Funimation it seems like a weird compulsion on the part of the writers to put their own stamp on a dub. They just can't resist adding references to things that are unrelated to the show at hand.

And I don't think they get as much out of their voice actors as some other studios do.

Don't get me wrong. They have a great talent pool. They've put out some good dubs, even a few great ones, but not a lot of amazing ones, ones that blow me away. Outside of Baccano.

(With Bandai Ent. not really in the business anymore, I guess Animaze is a thing of the past.)


You, of course, being the final arbiter of objective quality.
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:00 pm Reply with quote
I was merely explaining my own standards, as somebody challenged me to do so.

Sorry if I don't add "IN MY OPINION" to everything, but I've been taught that it is weak writing.

If you disagree, make an argument of your own.
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noigeL



Joined: 14 Feb 2012
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:55 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:

Funimation still has some bad habits, including lines of dialogue that have nothing to do with the original script or even the situation at hand in scenes of even their most accurate dubs. I know other studios do that too, but with Funimation it seems like a weird compulsion on the part of the writers to put their own stamp on a dub. They just can't resist adding references to things that are unrelated to the show at hand.


I guess there's a few titles where that applies, but as a studio-wide criticism? Ever since John Burgmeier took over as head writer at FUNimation studios I've noticed the script adaptations have been much more consistently faithful. I know there was a time when FUNi's dubs were very loosely written for no discernible reason, and I didn't much care for that approach myself, but maybe it's time to let that some of those hard feelings go.
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 5984
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:58 pm Reply with quote
Hey, it still happens. If we let it continue, they could backslide.

You don't let an alcoholic drink just because they don't get sh**faced anymore.
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noigeL



Joined: 14 Feb 2012
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:03 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
Hey, it still happens. If we let it continue, they could backslide.


Can you be any more specific?

penguintruth wrote:
You don't let an alcoholic drink just because they don't get sh**faced anymore.


I sure would appreciate it if you didn't try to equate anime ADR script adaptation and alcoholism. It's just disrespectful to equate the two, even if you don't know the person you're conversing with has had to deal with a lot of addiction in his family.
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LUNI_TUNZ



Joined: 28 Apr 2010
Posts: 683

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:07 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
You don't let an alcoholic drink just because they don't get sh**faced anymore.

Yes, Funimation taking creative license here and there is equal times as horrible as a drunk falling off the wagon. Yep.
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Maidenoftheredhand



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 1804

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:12 pm Reply with quote
Personally Funimation and Bang Zoom have always produced my favorite dubs, but hey everyone differs.

Lately though I haven't liked many of the series Funimation has actually licensed (too much T&A) so I can't really say much about their recent dubbing standards, but as I said before the Steins Gate dub was very good. It was only the first 5 episodes but I was extremely pleased.

Now I seem to be alone in this but I actually don't like their Baccano dub. It had way too many fake accents for me. I am actually a fan of 30's and 40's gangster films, so the fake accents just didn't work for me personally.

As for dub scripts I am okay with a little lee-way with the adaption as long as the more accurate sub is included on the DVD/BR.

The thing is with Steins Gate there were some changes in references: jokes about Doctor Who and maybe more 4ch memes compared to 2ch memes in the original.

However in general the script kept the feel & spirit of the original. The dialog between Kurisu and Okabe was especially sharp & funny. The audience definitely laughed at all the right moments. We didn't really get to any of the more serious moments of the story so we will see how they do with that.

And don't get me wrong I love the original Japanese version too (especially Miyano's performance) but the dub I thought was worthy of a great show.
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penguintruth



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:19 pm Reply with quote
LUNI_TUNZ wrote:

Yes, Funimation taking creative license here and there is equal times as horrible as a drunk falling off the wagon. Yep.


Reading comprehension is a lost art.

No, I was not equating the severity of alcoholism with taking creative license in anime dubs. I was equating the compulsion as an exaggeration.

That I even have to explain this very simple analogy is utterly maddening.
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