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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 5984
Location: Penguinopolis

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:05 pm Reply with quote
noigeL wrote:
I take it you haven't listened to any of Central Park Media's "let's read the subtitle script verbatim" dubs.


The cause is talentless voice actors, or talentless ADR directors. At least, that's what I've noticed in a lot of dubs for CPM, with some exceptions.

Keonyn wrote:
You've been soapboxing on this issue for years now, at some point you have to recognize that people are going to keep having opinions, and they're not always going to line up with your own.


It's not soapboxing if the discussion at hand (that is, anime dubs) is what I'm commenting on.

I'm merely trying to have a debate on the subject. I've supported my arguments thoroughly, I'm looking for the same of others.
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samuelp



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:27 pm Reply with quote
Actually I'm going to go out and support penguintruth here on that addiction analogy...

As someone who does translation myself I constantly find that need to "tamp down compulsion" to over-translate or inject cleaverness that wasn't in the original script.
When I come up with something that strikes me as clever I usually ask for a second opinion whether it goes beyond what I should...
I think it's natural for anyone who does localization for a decent amount of time to start putting more and more of their own writing into it, and it takes constant vigilance to prevent that sort of thing, a sort of mental discipline.

Translation and to a slightly lesser extent ADR script writing is difficult precisely because you have to be both creative AND to allow the original work to shine through as much as possible.
It's "easy" to just write over stuff that's hard to convey, and so people will gravitate toward that style over time... A battle against a compulsion, a slippery slope that must be constantly climbed.
Perhaps comparing it to a recovering alcoholic is hyperbole but it's similar.
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noigeL



Joined: 14 Feb 2012
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:51 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
noigeL wrote:
I take it you haven't listened to any of Central Park Media's "let's read the subtitle script verbatim" dubs.


The cause is talentless voice actors, or talentless ADR directors. At least, that's what I've noticed in a lot of dubs for CPM, with some exceptions.


It's very rare that bad anime dubs are the result of talentless actors. Scripts that need more work? Absolutely. Voice directors who don't try hard enough? Ohh yeah. But actors that can't act? That's rarely the case.

penguintruth wrote:
I'm merely trying to have a debate on the subject. I've supported my arguments thoroughly, I'm looking for the same of others.


Actually you haven't and that's what's frustrating, setting all questionable analogies aside. I emplore you, for the third time; be more specific.
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Keonyn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:52 pm Reply with quote
You have supported your arguments with your own perceptions and your own opinion. That isn't support however, but rather just reaffirming your take on the matter. Others have supported their opinions, by equally reaffirming their own take on the matter; the difference is that you refuse to accept their viewpoints because you appear to believe your own subjective viewpoint is fact and not opinion. Eventually you just need to accept that people don't see things your way and in matters of opinion that is simply how it is; you can debate until there's a blizzard in hell but all that's going to do is create a circular neverending argument that continues to derail and overtake threads, hindering others from discussing the rest of the content.

And no, from a rules standpoint this isn't the soapboxing that is going to get you in hot water. From a general standpoint it is soapboxing in that it is a topic you have a history of basically preaching about. So no, I'm not necessarily warning you as a mod, but addressing this as a poster.
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
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Location: Riga, Latvia

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:16 pm Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:
Actually I'm going to go out and support penguintruth here on that addiction analogy...


I'd rather see it as a matter of professionalism not having an addiction. In an ideal world a translator should only worry about the meaning not one's familiarity with the foreign culture. At least not in the text itself. The real problems start with poetry anyway.
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penguintruth



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:00 pm Reply with quote
Keonyn wrote:
You have supported your arguments with your own perceptions and your own opinion. That isn't support however, but rather just reaffirming your take on the matter. Others have supported their opinions, by equally reaffirming their own take on the matter; the difference is that you refuse to accept their viewpoints because you appear to believe your own subjective viewpoint is fact and not opinion. Eventually you just need to accept that people don't see things your way and in matters of opinion that is simply how it is; you can debate until there's a blizzard in hell but all that's going to do is create a circular neverending argument that continues to derail and overtake threads, hindering others from discussing the rest of the content.


So we should all agree with each other, then, as to not endanger a thread of being hostile? Let's all keep quiet because we all have different opinions, so there shouldn't be any debate? That's no way to foster discussion, which is what Talkback threads are for.

If you don't have anything to add to the debate, why are you even responding to it? I'm not breaking any rules.

What are your thoughts on the accuracy of English dubs?
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:27 pm Reply with quote
He's not saying that we shouldn't disagree, he's saying that you should back up your assertations with actual facts, like an ACTUAL debate.

If you really think that Funi dubs are beholden to overly-creative re-interpertations, or whatever your position is, then provide some damn examples.
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noigeL



Joined: 14 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:39 pm Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:
Actually I'm going to go out and support penguintruth here on that addiction analogy...

(snip)

A battle against a compulsion, a slippery slope that must be constantly climbed.
Perhaps comparing it to a recovering alcoholic is hyperbole but it's similar.


*sighs* Oh, Sam. No it's not. I've no doubt you're a good translator but I think you need to get over yourself, at least a little.
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Zac
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:04 pm Reply with quote
Comparing someone who gets into the habit of injecting their own writing into a translation to an alcoholic is incredibly stupid and thoughtless. You destroy whatever point you were trying to make when you resort to nonsense like that. Seriously.

Not only that but Tatum was talking specifically about adaptive scriptwriting. The key word is ->adapt<-, which means change. Not only that but his thoughts basically echo your own, or were you not listening to what he said and instead took this as an excuse to soapbox on the issue again?
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Keonyn
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:20 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
Keonyn wrote:
You have supported your arguments with your own perceptions and your own opinion. That isn't support however, but rather just reaffirming your take on the matter. Others have supported their opinions, by equally reaffirming their own take on the matter; the difference is that you refuse to accept their viewpoints because you appear to believe your own subjective viewpoint is fact and not opinion. Eventually you just need to accept that people don't see things your way and in matters of opinion that is simply how it is; you can debate until there's a blizzard in hell but all that's going to do is create a circular neverending argument that continues to derail and overtake threads, hindering others from discussing the rest of the content.


So we should all agree with each other, then, as to not endanger a thread of being hostile? Let's all keep quiet because we all have different opinions, so there shouldn't be any debate? That's no way to foster discussion, which is what Talkback threads are for.

If you don't have anything to add to the debate, why are you even responding to it? I'm not breaking any rules.

What are your thoughts on the accuracy of English dubs?


No, that isn't what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that at some point you need to recognize that when it comes to something that is completely subjective you're going to have to accept the fact that your opinion isn't law and that others are going to see things differently because they simply don't perceive them the same way you do. Your problem isn't that your disagreeing, but that you're doing so by placing your own perception of the subject matter atop a pedastel as though it's something more than simply your own opinion. There comes a point when arguing something that is entirely subjective where you have to show a little tolerance of the fact that people can think for themselves.

Now what are my thoughts on the accuracy of english dubs. I find that they can vary, but generally doing direct word for word translations doesn't work. They're two different languages with very different ways of speaking; you can't just do a literal translation and leave it at that, nothing would sound like an authentically spoken line. Obviously there needs to be some play in how the lines are spoken to make them sound like a spoken line, and not just a translated one. Obviously if too much play is applied and it starts to negatively impact the scene or changes components of the story then there is an issue and that has gone too far, but I don't believe rigid adherence to a literal translation is a proper way to go.
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:29 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Comparing someone who gets into the habit of injecting their own writing into a translation to an alcoholic is incredibly stupid and thoughtless. You destroy whatever point you were trying to make when you resort to nonsense like that. Seriously.

Not only that but Tatum was talking specifically about adaptive scriptwriting. The key word is ->adapt<-, which means change. Not only that but his thoughts basically echo your own, or were you not listening to what he said and instead took this as an excuse to soapbox on the issue again?


My point is my point, regardless of the severity of hyperbole. Stop wasting time attacking the analogy and actually debate me on the subject at hand, if you have thoughts to the contrary.

The problem isn't adaptation per se, but rather this obsession Funimation has with changing certain things in the script for little or no reason, which still occurs. I take issue with the attitude of transformative English dubs.

I'm not even necessarily objecting to Funimation's current overall approach to English dubs, but that there are still plenty of slip-ups that, if left alone, could result in less accurate dubs, because people just shrug inaccuracies off. If anything, it's more dangerous this way, because people figure, "Well, I guess that wasn't an important line", and it chips away at characterization.

Again, it does not count as soapboxing, as the discussion on the podcast was almost entirely about this. Soapboxing implies going into an unrelated discussion and inserting your own opinion unrelated to the topic at hand.


Last edited by penguintruth on Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ShinnFlowen



Joined: 07 Feb 2012
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:30 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
So we should all agree with each other, then, as to not endanger a thread of being hostile? Let's all keep quiet because we all have different opinions, so there shouldn't be any debate? That's no way to foster discussion, which is what Talkback threads are for.

If you don't have anything to add to the debate, why are you even responding to it? I'm not breaking any rules.


You seem to miss the point in having discussions, which is to hear and provide feedback to other people's opinions, but you seem to write aggressively without any consideration to other people's feelings whenever you reply. Do you seriously believe that the moderator would like to provide his opinion about dub translations with your behaviour?

Also, this is not a debate to determine who is right or wrong rather it is a thread to discuss our views on the podcast.

Sentai release Fate UBW, making a lot of revisions to the script to make the dialogue flow better. If you remember the battle between spoiler[Emiya and Archer] the dialogue deviates from the Japanese dub/Visual Novel however this alteration allows newcomers to better understand the significance of what each person is saying. Example: My body is made of swords is altered with extra lines added so the meaning of the sentence is understood by newcomers instead of just the fanboys.

I believe that the North American Anime business would be less profitable if they cater their work only to hard core Japanese enthusiasts because a lot of work would not be enjoyable or approachable for casual/normal viewers. I did not enjoy Baka And Test that much until I saw the English version, which did a better job in providing me entertainment thanks to their script revisions.
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:38 pm Reply with quote
Keonyn wrote:
Now what are my thoughts on the accuracy of english dubs. I find that they can vary, but generally doing direct word for word translations doesn't work. They're two different languages with very different ways of speaking; you can't just do a literal translation and leave it at that, nothing would sound like an authentically spoken line. Obviously there needs to be some play in how the lines are spoken to make them sound like a spoken line, and not just a translated one. Obviously if too much play is applied and it starts to negatively impact the scene or changes components of the story then there is an issue and that has gone too far, but I don't believe rigid adherence to a literal translation is a proper way to go.


This is what I was waiting for.

It depends on what you consider "rigid adherance". I don't believe that the dub script has to be a 1:1 translation of the Japanese script, but at times it feels like the reworking of a line is simply there for the benefit of the writing staff rather than for the line's sake, because some script writers like to put a spin on a line that takes it in a bizarre direction, or even changes the entire point of the scene. As if the writer is thinking that they need to be creative, need to make the show their own. Call it paranoia if you want, but that's how I feel at times.

After enough instances of these sort of line changes, the show begins to lose its identity. My point is that I'm largely uninterested in what the writers at Funimation have to "add" to the mix. I'm much more comfortable if they render an English version of the show that is akin to the Japanese version, only slightly reworked to iron out awkward translations.

For instance, the work of Mark Handler, in the Cowboy Bebop and Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex dubs.

And also, I feel that a lot of awkwardness in translations can be fixed with proper ADR direction and voice acting.
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noigeL



Joined: 14 Feb 2012
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:10 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
I'm not even necessarily objecting to Funimation's current overall approach to English dubs, but that there are still plenty of slip-ups that, if left alone, could result in less accurate dubs, because people just shrug inaccuracies off. If anything, it's more dangerous this way, because people figure, "Well, I guess that wasn't an important line", and it chips away at characterization.


Please. Be. More. Specific.
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:33 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
My point is my point, regardless of the severity of hyperbole. Stop wasting time attacking the analogy and actually debate me on the subject at hand, if you have thoughts to the contrary.


No, I think it's a valid reality check. When you're vile enough to derail a discussion, that's troll territory. Them's just the breaks of talking to people other than yourself.
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