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The Spring 2009 Anime Preview Guide

Well I can safely say, this Spring had some great shows (Dragon Ball Kai, Full Metal Alchemist, Chi's New Address), but really nothing masterpiece worthly like Toradora last year.

Who the hell considered Toradora anything near masterpiece quality after 2 episodes? Eden and Cross Game are easily superior shows after only 2 episodes... and I doubt they will have a stinker like the J.C Staff original episode 4 of Toradora throughout those series.

See, that's the problem Shin Mazinger had. One reviewer was into Super Robot and got it just fine. The other two made it sound like it was the most horrible thing ever unless your some sort of super nerd and are already a fan which I think really reflects their own personal bias against the genre, rather than than reviewing the episode. :\

I do have to ask you now Key that if you think this season is going to be average do you feel like last season was better? And why?

RedLeader wrote:

See, that's the problem Shin Mazinger had. One reviewer was into Super Robot and got it just fine. The other two made it sound like it was the most horrible thing ever unless your some sort of super nerd and are already a fan which I think really reflects their own personal bias against the genre, rather than than reviewing the episode. :\

No, I knocked Shin Mazinger Z because it made no sense whatsoever unless you were already familiar with the subject matter. If a series can't fairly be criticized for that, then I'm not sure what you can fairly criticize it for.

Besides, I gave immensely better reviews to Gurren Lagann, Kirameki Project, and the first volume of Godannar that are on public record, and in fact rate the entirety of those first two series as Excellent. Try doing a little research before tossing around claims like someone having a "personal bias against the genre."

As for the first couple of episodes of Toradora! vs. Cross Game and Eden of the East: both of the latter two beat out Toradora for the first episode but have second episodes that, while still quite good on their own merits, are inferior to Toradora's wonderful second episode. (I'd probably give Eden another 4.5 for episode 2 and CG a 4 if we were still doing the Preview Guide, whereas I gave Toradora's second a 5+.) Both of the newcomers have yet to prove that they can maintain their quality over the long haul, but based on two episodes Eden looks like the jewel of the new season. My verdict's still out on CG until I see what exact direction it seems inclined to go.

~~Epic~~ wrote:

I do have to ask you now Key that if you think this season is going to be average do you feel like last season was better? And why?

No, that should not be taken as an indication that last season was better; frankly, I thought that one was pretty average overall, too. (A couple of standouts, but nothing spectacular.)

and what is you're thought on FMA:BH 2 and 3?

No, I knocked Shin Mazinger Z because it made no sense whatsoever unless you were already familiar with the subject matter. If a series can't fairly be criticized for that, then I'm not sure what you can fairly criticize it for.

Besides, I gave immensely better reviews to Gurren Lagann, Kirameki Project, and the first volume of Godannar that are on public record, and in fact rate the entirety of those first two series as Excellent. Try doing a little research before tossing around claims like someone having a "personal bias against the genre."

Yes, yes, but that's not my point of contenstion. I would've described the first episode as "operatic" or "epic" but then I'm a grizzled old veteran. :p Which, BTW, that robot with the boob cockpits is called Million Alpha.

No, no, MY problem with your review, as stated above somewhat plainly, is your blanket appraisal that this show should only be watched by fans of ancient 70s stuff and no one else should bother because there's no way they'd ever like it. Because that would be ... Impossible, right? See, the review doesn't say don't watch it because the first episode is confusing, it says, don't watch it because it's too corny and cheesy and you shouldn't even bother with it.

But, that sounded to me like passing judgement on the whole series based on its genre. It's like... Why bother watching the first episode at all? Just say, "This show is Moe, so if you like Moe watch it, if you don't, don't. Whatever."

Right... Because I should be as familiar with your work as you should be with Go Nagai's, right? Just as you obviously didn't bother to do any research on Mazinger. . .

Well, let's do a little research, then, shall we? One phrase that keeps coming up in each of those reviews is "70s mecha show homage" but you only compare the shows to modern series like Eva or Gunbuster 2 (okay, fine, you also get points for Gunbuster) and furthermore in none of these do you discount the series for being a part of the genre, so why suddenly bristle at Shin Mazinger's Super Robotness? Or is the Nagainess that scares you?

But really, just what is your background concerning the Super Robot genre? You said you didn't have any experience with Mazinger so I'll assume you skipped ADV's Mazinkaiser release but what about Nagai's other robot shows? Getter Robo? Steel Jeeg? Groxier X? Gaiking? Maybe some Toei stuff? Combattler, Voltes, Daimos, either Voltron? Dancougar (the original, not Nova)?

RedLeader wrote:

Yes, yes, but that's not my point of contenstion. I would've described the first episode as "operatic" or "epic" but then I'm a grizzled old veteran. :p Which, BTW, that robot with the boob cockpits is called Million Alpha.

"Epic" isn't a word I'd associate with a series like this. That's for series which tell stories on a grand scale, and giant robot series rarely fall into that. (They may have grand actions, but not scale.) I certainly wouldn't use "operatic," either.

Okay, let's stop here. Even as a big fan of the genre, can you honestly claim or expect that a show in this style is going to have much appeal beyond those who are already fans of the genre? This is not a "bridge" or introductory title for the genre; this is pure, hard-core, classic giant robot content intended specifically for fans of the original works. (Or do you wish to deny that?) If I think a title might have appeal beyond genre fans, I will usually say it in a review/preview, and I have, in fact, often done so. Likewise, I think it's my duty to make it clear that a title is unlikely to have appeal beyond normal fans of the genre.

Um, that's pretty much what I did say. And besides, I was passing judgment based on the first episode, not the genre. (And while I'll agree that it's not usually fair to judge a whole series only by its first episode, it is the job and responsibility of the first episode to give an accurate feel for the series as a whole.)

And obviously you don't know what you're talking about here, either. Nothing that I turned in a preview for went unresearched. I'm just clearly not the maven for the series that you are.

No, the others just did it much, much better, and in ways that were more understandable and accessible.

(Geez, I feel like I'm repeating myself here. . .)

The Giant Robot genre isn't normally my thing, so I don't watch a lot of it. I've seen enough from various series to be familiar with common characteristics and style points, and that should be sufficient for sake of comparison. From what I saw, this one did absolutely nothing to stand out in a genre as notorious as any for its typical conformity to genre style points.

Now, obviously, I don't expect a diehard Giant Robot fan like yourself to agree with me, just as I wouldn't expect anyone not normally at least tolerant of ecchi romantic comedies to agree with me that Midori Days was a good series for its type.

I didn't say the series was epic, I said the episode was. . . but even so, it should be easily apparent to any green horn that the first episode was no less than epic. But as I said, that's how I would've described it.

Well, that's actually good to hear, but you didn't seriously expect me or anyone else here to thoroughly investigate you before disagreeing with you, right? That's a bit much, don't you think?

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No, the others just did it much, much better, and in ways that were more understandable and accessible.

Did what "much, much better"? They... Were better homages? Had better first episodes? Can you be more specific?

Ah, but it's not really supposed to, now is it? Especially, when dealing with remaking the series that invented the ENTIRE Super Robot genre. Redefining a genre is the job of an entirely new series with no ties to the past like Big O or Eva. A series that already has a following you don't want to change too much because then you alienate the core audience. Like when they made Dancougar all Moe with Nova... Or Gundam SEED... [SHUDDERS] Now, of course, we've only seen three episodes of Shin Mazinger thus far and have yet to see what surprises lie in store for us but there's no good reason why Mazinger shouldn't be Mazinger, right? :p

Nothing about the first episode struck me as "epic" or "operatic," either.

For just disagreeing? No, you're right. However, you went further than just disagreeing and started tossing out accusations of bias. That I do expect the accuser to be able to substantiate via research or long-term familiarity.

It's just like the people who, from time to time (including earlier in this thread!), try to accuse us of being biased against ecchi content when I have, on many occasions, commented positively about high-quality fan service (or lamented about the lack thereof) in reviews.

Solid homages with strong, sensible, and exciting/highly entertaining first episodes. . .yeah, I think that about covers it.

You're missing the point. I wasn't previewing it strictly as a representative of its genre; I was previewing it against the entire field.

You do have to remember that unlike the rest of the planet, the US and the UK didn't have a generation inmersed by True Super Robot Anime, instead they got watered down versions like Tranzor Z, Voltron, Force Five, Starbirds and Magnos the Robot (I think the only super robot show that ran uncut in the US was the Voltes V run on CBN), Goldorak (Ufo Robot Grendizer) pulled a 100% rating in France, and most of the international forums I've visited are foaming at the mouth for Shin Mazinger.

and the case for Real Robots didn't look pretty either in the US until the 90' and early 00's

But Key, I fail to see how you can't consider ep 1 epic, It's the shape of things to come, alike a prophesy as the episode and specially the final 2 minutes of it are as epic as any of the stories of Old, Gods, Devils, The Classic Conflitct of Good VS Evil with the fate of the entire planet in the balance as the long hero stands against the forces of Darkness!!!! (and with a insert/OP song by Lazy/Jam Project... so it has to be epic! )

Anyway, Shangri-La could well be one of those shows that ends up being truly spectacular. On the other hand, it could end up being tremendously stupid. It's impossible to tell after only one episode, so be sure to stay tuned.

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and the case for Real Robots didn't look pretty either in the US until the 90' and early 00's

And even they haven't quite taken off either. :\ I'd give my right arm for some Dragonar or L-Gaim or Layzner...

As for others not reviewing Shin Mazinger Z yet: give it until the end of the day before complaining about that. A massive flood of stuff became available yesterday afternoon and evening, and I'm sure we're all just trying to get caught up.

For example: many people rely solely on the Fall/Spring Anime Preview guides to get an idea of what's coming out in Japan at that moment. (That's kind of the point of why it's there.) But what if a series doesn't quite start right during that same week or so of Fall/Spring? Well, then it doesn't get covered in the guide since it's out of scope and there are already so many titles to cover as it stands. It's an understandable position for ANN to take. But the effect it has is that unless you're already a dedicated fan--and based on the DVD sales in the US, you are probably not--you would not know that there is a brand new Hajime no Ippo anime series entitled Hajime no Ippo: New Challenger just from reading the preview guides, because it started in January. So it is that anyone relying on the guides to find out what's new (and judging from the reactions, that's a lot of folks!) will never even know the series exists, and it will remain one of the best shows that nobody is watching.

It's so hard to make heads or tails of anything without extensive prior background with the Z Mazinger manga by Go Nagai that you may find yourself wondering if you are even watching episode one.

Of course, this might make some sense if you have actually seen the original Mazinger Z series (I haven't)

Presumably all of this would be mana from heaven to those who grew up watching the original television series (and who consequently can make heads or tails of it), but you don't need to know who Dr. Hell is or what happened to Kouji's mother to end up downing this episode like a bottle of cinematic white lightning.

If more reviews and comments get posted that say "I don't know anything about Go Nagai stuff and therefore I can't watch this because it's too confusing," that will influence a large swath of US anime fans because we as a whole do not really know much about Go Nagai stuff. Most of it never got released here.

No, I knocked Shin Mazinger Z because it made no sense whatsoever unless you were already familiar with the subject matter. If a series can't fairly be criticized for that, then I'm not sure what you can fairly criticize it for.

. . .

Okay, let's stop here. Even as a big fan of the genre, can you honestly claim or expect that a show in this style is going to have much appeal beyond those who are already fans of the genre? This is not a "bridge" or introductory title for the genre; this is pure, hard-core, classic giant robot content intended specifically for fans of the original works. (Or do you wish to deny that?)

...the viewer is not expected to have prior knowledge of who any of those characters and situations are. If you did, it would not matter because there is no defined continuity or universe in which the stories occur. In fact, much like how Giant Robo the Animation is a compilation of the multiple works and characters of Mitsuteru Yokoyama, so too is Shin Mazinger that only for Go Nagai. In both cases, it doesn't matter if you've never seen anything prior. (Same thing's true for Leiji Matsumoto works, which also go unwatched by most due to the falsely held idea that the other titles featuring the Yamato or Captain Harlock or whatever relate to whatever the newest one is. It's not true and it never was, but nobody ever seems to point this out.)

Ignoring the fact that Casey incorrectly said the series was based on the Z Mazinger manga because that's what Wikipedia said at the time she wrote it, all of them conveyed to the reader "you cannot make sense out of Shin Mazinger Z unless you have seen these old Go Nagai cartoons [which nobody in America has seen]!" so even though people know it exists, they all think that you need prior knowledge to fully appreciate the series. (Carl did note that even if you knew nothing about it you could still enjoy it, but he still suggested that having prior knowledge was needed to make sense out of it.) As a result, only the crazy super robot fanatics like me are watching it, which was precisely my concern at the time:

"you cannot make sense out of Shin Mazinger Z unless you have seen these old Go Nagai cartoons [which nobody in the Americas has seen in recent times]!"