Forum - View topicThe Spring 2009 Anime Preview Guide
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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That's true, but I suppose there were programming variations between countries and not all current anime fans from the region were in the right place at the right time to watch most of those either. Speaking purely for myself, I'd say it's not a necessity to have extensive background knowledge about the genre in order to appreciate it. The most influential robot show from my childhood was Transformers, of all things, a franchise which I essentially don't really care about right now. While I had to listen to the AWO review before doing so (giving credit where it is due), I watched the Giant Robo OVA without any previous exposure to the characters involved and had only ever seen Mazinkaiser before Shin Mazinger. You could say I've become a fan of the Super Robot genre, but only relatively recently. I can understand where the previewers are coming from, naturally, but that doesn't mean some good points haven't been made in the other direction. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18189 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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If it doesn't have "any bearing," then how come most of the people advocating this series are familiar with the previous works, and few that aren't are speaking in its favor? Besides, comparing it to FMA: Brotherhood isn't accurate since FMA at least partly laid a foundation in its first episode. All Mazinger's first ep does is show you how things are going to turn out.
It's not just that. I've seen several non-mecha Go Nagai works - enough to be familiar with his overall style and talent beyond just giant robot series, anyway. My general impression of him is akin to what many seem to think of director Michael Bay: strong on sensationalism and flashiness, not so respected when it comes to the actual writing. Gainax has a massively better reputation on the latter and much broader notoriety within the fan community, so of course its title is going to get more attention. Besides, from its very start TTGL establishes a strong foundation for setting and characters and immediately builds around an appealing trio. While Mazinger Z might start doing that in the second episode (haven't seen it), it does not do that in the first. Whether fairly or not, that's going to discourage viewers. Now, would Mazinger Z have gotten off to a rockin' start even if it had explained itself better at the outset? Probably only marginally so, because Giant Robot series are more nostalgia pieces these days than a major genre. TTGL was much more an exception than the rule. As for not "getting" this one being sad: hey, I find it sad that so many people find the original Bubblegum Crisis to be superior to the 2040 TV series version, but I live with it. |
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RedLeader
Posts: 310 |
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Viscerr
That's true... But I still haven't seen VOTOMS... ^^;;; Still, there's more to be seen!
Yup. It is very sad... I have the books those footnotes are in, but I'd rather just have the shows themselves. :p NWO
THANK YOU!! This is precisely what I've been trying to get at but it doesn't seem like I'm getting through... NightJuan
Too true. Going into Giant Robo, I knew Yokoyama was responsible for Tetsujin, but I had never seen it or any other of his work before, knowing only of Giant Robo from the trailers on my old Manga Video VHS tapes (I had wanted to get Giant Robo back then but never got around to it until it was on DVD) and its appearance in SRW64, it worked out just fine without me knowing anything about the background material. Hell, I didn't even know KNOW there was a live action Giant Robo until I ran into it on YouTube, the English Dub no less (Johnny Sokko), and was gratified amidst the typical Godzilla style dubbing, the Giant Robo theme from the OAV playing...! But that's beside the point. You didn't have to know who everyone was in Shin Mazinger's first episode, you just had to hang on for dear life! Key ... Ahem. [SETS MP3 PLAYER TO "THE ARROW OF DESTINY"] Anyone know where Arrow of Destiny is from...?
Because Shin Mazinger doesn't have any yaoi going for it? Elric-cest and all? :p Sorry, joke answer! Anyway, I think you have your "bearings" confused here. He was making the rather simple point that the new FMA contains the same characters as the last series but storywise, the resemblance ends there. Simularly, Shin Mazinger contains lots of characters with pre-existing histories, however, the viewer isn't expected to know this because this being a new series, one that the creators are emphatic in not calling a remake, though things may be similiar the way in which these characters and situations relate to each other will be different. And the second and third episodes hammer that home by being both extremely close to the manga in tone and dialouge, yet completely different in settings, characterization, and in the way the action evolves. While this is a remake, it is not a straight up, by the book remake, and there's PLENTY of room for newbies. Now, as to why we're the only ones speaking out, it's probably because, as has already been pointed out, most people in North America, where almost everyone here hails from, are completely clueless to the works of Go Nagai and the Super Robot Genre at large. But that should have no "bearing" as I'm sure the whole point of this new Mazinger is to bring the series to the new generations (while making us old codgers giddy!), because if they just wanted us old codgers watching it, they'd have done it as an OAV, not a TV series. :p As an OAV, only WE would buy the DVDs, but on TV, EVERYONE can see it and thus expand the market for the product. And as for that "foundation", that would be Kouji addressing the audience at the beginning asking them what they would do with the limitless power of Mazinger Z. Would save the World? Would you destroy it? The theme is carried through the rest of the episode and brought to its conclusion at the end when Kouji answers his own questions. "I'm no God, but I won't be a Devil, either!" Standing amidst the wreckage of the previous battles, seemingly having lost almost everything he cared about, with MORE enemies on the way, he elects to be that God that saves the World, no matter what. Not the classic and cliched foundation of, "I'm Hero X and I'm going to save World B with Power Y and here are my friends, wanna be Girlfriend A and all my classmates and...", but a foundation nonetheless. It's about making that fundamental choice between good and evil when you're presented with unlimited power. Everything else, is irrelevant. Of course, if you DO want that nice "clean" first episode, watch episode 2. You'll get to meet Kouji, his little brother Shirou, eccentric grandfather, Juzou, Boss, and his boys, Mucha and Nuke, see Professor Yumi and his apparent triumph of science on TV, and more! Also, some giant robots show up and start tearing up the place but Kouji won't be able to fight them until the next episode! In anycase, you'll find it does a good job of at least setting up the basic situation Kouji finds himself in--if you're into that kind of thing. :p
Yeah, he's not exactly Shakespear, but I won't compare him to Michael Bay... Go Nagai invented at least a couple of genres, reinvented horror, set up MANY of cliches used by pretty much everyone since, and is a legendary figure. Michael Bay, on the other hand, has contributed nothing to anything and turns everything he touches into crap. :p
So, even if it did everything "right" to your liking... It would still be pointless because it's a robot show? ... Ummm... >_> You might want to reword that one. I'd like to understand that statement with the utmost clarity before I respond to it. |
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Vicserr
Posts: 480 Location: Carolina, Puerto Rico USA |
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VOTOMS is an essencial part of a proper mecha diet, you should be able to find if you dig a little (Orig version 16 dvd, 4 box sets, new version 4, 2 dvd sets, one box set)
I do resent that we Super Robot fans and our anime are treated like dusty relics, old coots blinded by nostalgia and any new Traditional Super Robot show is an anacronistic waste of film that could be used to propel more eroge adaptations, harem anime where the main character has the spine of a bendy straw and MOE, but unlike others type of fans, the Super Robot Spirit still burns bright in us, and we won't go down into the Darkness witout a glorious fight, We won't be relegated to the Anime Ghetto. Heck, I blame Evangelion for the Descontruction of the Mecha genre, and IMHO TTGL is an apology for their sins. Most Modern Anime Fans(TM) have lost the sense of Adventure and just go into searching for their feeling against the backdrop of 2D characters THAT WILL DO NOTHING FOR YOU!!!! except in some demented twisted part of their brains. And treating the name of Go nagai like some crazy talentless old hack instead of being mentioned among the greats like Tezuka, Matsumoto, Miyasaki and Kon. I hope after Imagawa Finishes Shin Mazinger that he would do the Shin Romance Robot Trilogy (I would love too see his reinterpretations of Combattler V, Voltes V and Daimos), Tadao Nagahama needs some love too.
But BGC 2032 IS better than BGC 2040. . The 80's were a glorious time full of experimentation in the anime field, where you could find an OVA about almost anything (check the AWO podcast for some of those gems - like Baoh). |
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DomFortress
Posts: 751 Location: Richmond BC, Canada |
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RedLeader
Posts: 310 |
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Heh. I meant to mention this in my last post but I got so busy answering Key, I forgot to do say it but...
NWO, NightJuan, Viscerr, and now even Dom too! Thanks for your back up, guys! You guys are awesome! I just wish we could get a comment from Mr. Kimlinger about this whole mess... :\
I know! I should look for it the next time my wife lets me spend a substatial amount of money again... Oh, getting back more on topic... Anyone know when the new Space Adventure Cobra show starts? |
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Kalessin
Posts: 931 |
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I haven't seen Shin Mazinger. I have no idea whether I'd agree with Key on it or with the various Super Robot fans who have been going back and forth with him. However, I must say that I see nothing wrong with Key's review. It may not match the opinions of various fans of the show, but it seems like a perfectly good review to me. He gave his impressions and opinions of the first episode of the show. It seems fairly evident from the reviews and comments, that the first episode was attempting to show where things are going with Shin Shin Mazinger as opposed to actually properly introduce things (at least one person described it as an extended trailer for the show). It sounds like it's one of those deals where they're showing the end of the show at the beginning. Sometimes that works. Sometimes it doesn't. In this case, Key thinks that it didn't and he gave it a correspondingly low score. That doesn't mean that the show is necessarily bad, but it does mean that Key's assessment of the first episode was that that episode was bad and that if it's representative of the show, then the show is bad. There are plenty of other reviews for other shows - both by Key and the other reviewers - where the reviewer disliked the first episode and gave it a low rating.
The problem I see with where this has been going on this thread is that it looks to me like the various Super Robot fans are ticked off because Key gave it a low rating and they think that this means that people won't watch it and most people are going to think that it's a bad show. They, therefore, seem to be trying to rip apart what Key has said and show that he has no clue what he's talking about. Personally, I think that it's a bit extreme. If you want to point out that you think that a show which a reviewer panned is actually good, that seems fine to me. There are plenty of examples in this thread of people saying that a show was good (and sometimes explaining why) in spite of what a reviewer has said. However, in the case of Key's review of Shin Mazinger, it seems that the show's fans are just bashing him for his review and that seems to me to be rather rude. And truth be told, for me at least, that makes me less likely to watch the show, not more. I think that Key and the other reviewers did a fine job overall. I disagree with some of their reviews and certainly some of their ratings seem fairly arbitrary, but their ratings are based on their opinions and impressions of the shows, so it's not like they represent solid fact. They're meant to give us an idea of what's out there this season as well as what the reviewers thought of it. I thought that these reviews were certainly helpful in that regard and I think that it's sad that people have been getting mad at the reviewers simply because the reviewers happened to give a low rating to a show that they liked. |
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DomFortress
Posts: 751 Location: Richmond BC, Canada |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18189 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I appreciate Kalessin's defense and agree with many of his/her points, but both as a moderator and as a reviewer I haven't seen anything out of line here. I just chalk most of this up to starkly contrasting viewpoints and leave it at that.
The only thing that actually bothered me at all in this discussion was the "bias" comment, and RedLeader has already backed down from that. I've been doing this long enough that I probably shouldn't let that kind of accusation bother me, but it does and probably always will because I have far too often seen that used to justify some kind of persecution complex by the speaker, typically in conjunction with a heavily implied insult. Case in point: I used to teach Math in a Midwestern urban high school where 90% of the student population is African-American. I can't tell you how many times I had black students accuse me of being racist (I'm white) because I gave them an F in Algebra - never mind that the accuser hadn't turned in half or more of his assignments and/or had miserably failed all of their tests and/or had double-digit absences and/or was a massive behavior problem. (Typically 2-4 of the above.) Seeing so many students pull out that tired excuse just because they weren't willing to do anything to help their own causes just sickened me, and is one of the reasons I don't work there anymore. It happens in anime forums, too, where some people automatically assume that reviewers are biased against a whole genre just because they have a differing viewpoint and/or because the accuser isn't willing to acknowledge that his/her favorite genre has crap titles in it just like any genre. Assertions that these claims are based on a general trend of reviews typically conveniently ignore evidence to the contrary or otherwise are voiced without actual research, as in the case I mentioned above about the school students. Now, is Shin Mazinger Z one of those crap titles or not? The best evidence of that will be based on two things: 1. Whether or not it manages to draw in and enthrall people who are not normally fans of the genre. 2. How dedicated fans of the genre evaluate it compared to other prominent titles of the genre. (e.g. is it better, worse, or about the norm?) The straight opinions of dedicated genre fans actually don't count as much in my evaluation since they are a decidedly partisan group anyway and thus tend to inflate a title's quality rating. If a series can win over people who normally are ambivalent towards the genre, or especially those who outright dislike the genre, that counts for a lot more. That's why Princess Tutu is such a widely-respected title: because even people who don't normally tolerate magical girl series often love it. So let's just see what happens with Mazinger Z over time. I've always believed that vastly differing ratings of a title - whether it be a regular movie or an anime series - is a sure indicator that it's a hit-or-miss title. For me, it was a "miss." For some others around here, it clearly wasn't. |
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RedLeader
Posts: 310 |
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Indeed. As heated as this arguement has been, I believe we've kept things plenty well above board and as respectful as possible. So, actually, I feel a little hurt by Kalessin's comments but as Dom said, debate happens. If it didn't, we wouldn't need our Freedom of Speech, now would we?
Well, I do apoligize for that, however... The fact remains that several of us still feel the article carried an overly negative tone, particularly towards the genre and feel slighted by your attempts to warn people away from it as if it were some horrible plague. And I, myself am still waiting for clarrification on what you meant about the show only being "marginally" better if it explained itself better because it was a robot show, which apparently belongs in antiquity as you indicated. I'm sure you can agree that further misunderstandings would not be fruitful towards any kind of a positive or amicable resolution. So, please, if you answer nothing else, please answer me this.
And that's the real trick, isn't it? But for that to happen, reviews stating people should run as far from it as possible don't help, but I suppose if it manages to make an impact (no pun intended) regardless of your review, then that's all the better, right?
Damned, straight it wasn't! Had it been, we wouldn't be here right now debating this, we'd be hanging our heads in shame and hoping they'd "get it right" next time. :p Still, given time, shows CAN go bad... As you said yourself, Godanner had a good start but it petered out in the middle and was so-so by the end. Not horrible, but not great, and certainly not epic. :p More like, eh, you tried. I'm still scratching my head wondering what it's doing in SRW, considering it's move list is maybe 2 attacks in length. :p But, we'll just have to wait and see. That said, episode 4 was awesome with lots of surprises and now I can't wait for next week or the sub either! Hee hee hee! I'm as giddy as a little girl! |
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drdr48
Posts: 360 |
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You know what bother me about FMA:BH? the animation. ther is no consistency in the animation of the characters and backgrounding through the episodes seriously, compare Ed's look in episode 1 and episode 2 (and episode 4).. totally different |
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