×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
Things about anime these days that just absolutely frustrates you?


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

Anime News Network Forum Index -> General -> Anime
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:18 pm Reply with quote
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
You don't see them anymore because Japan was in the middle of a massive economic bubble at the time, allowing for lavish films and OVAs to come out in droves.


Indeed. I'm not questioning why we don't see those kinds of projects anymore. I'm just saying that this was a major upside to that era in anime.

Quote:
Take a look at what you get a few years later, after it burst.


Well...okay. After the bubble burst in the early 90s we actually saw things keep on trucking pretty good for a couple years, (Macross Plus, Patlabor 2, Memories, Ghost in the Shell, Ninja Scroll...plus a whole bunch of other assorted cheaper OVAs). By the mid 90s that whole OVA bubble was more or less dead though. (This incidentally is why I have always preferred to look at anime from about 85-95 as a distinct era rather than looking at it by decades). So yeah, you're right about OVAs and movie productions.

I find it interesting to look at what happened then though. Yeah, we didn't really see a lot of big project movies or OVAs for the next number of years (aside from Ghibli movies but obviously those are kinda different). What we did see though...was Evangelion. And not just Evangelion. Escaflowne too. And Berserk and Trigun and Cowboy Bebop. Utena, SE Lain, Big O...and about a million other TV shows. For some reason (I'm honestly mystified as to why) TV anime, which as you pointed out earlier had previously been pretty limited, suddenly exploded into this huge, diverse thing and as a result gave us quite a few of the greatest shows of all times. (Shows that, incidentally, would be responsible for creating a new boom a few years later as anime really took off in North America).

See, this is what frustrates me about modern anime. I can accept that the grand productions of the 80s were simply the result of an economic bubble that has long since collapsed and that it is just not realistic to expect such productions these days. At the same time though, I look at that period in the late 90s when by all rights anime should have been shit economically speaking. But is wasn't. So what's the problem? Why is the industry so far in the toilet? A number of reasons I guess. I don't think you can just blame it on economics though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
naninanino



Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 680
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:40 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
So what's the problem? Why is the industry so far in the toilet? A number of reasons I guess. I don't think you can just blame it on economics though.


Well, there is the theory of generation shift. Most old bonebags are in their grave or senile so they won't be making any new magnum opuses. The young ones on the other hand, have lived in a different environment, surrounded by video games, anime and manga. This results in anime that are copies of themselves. There is too little outside influence or ambition involved. Even if technology has advanced, you can only go so far to mask that little something that is missing. Some don't care, but I know when I see it. Or maybe it is just my expectations finally meeting reality. I used to believe there would be something spectacular every season, then every year, then every two years... but there are no such rules in reality or in anime.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Spotlesseden



Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: earth
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:15 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:


See, this is what frustrates me about modern anime. I can accept that the grand productions of the 80s were simply the result of an economic bubble that has long since collapsed and that it is just not realistic to expect such productions these days. At the same time though, I look at that period in the late 90s when by all rights anime should have been shit economically speaking. But is wasn't. So what's the problem? Why is the industry so far in the toilet? A number of reasons I guess. I don't think you can just blame it on economics though.


you got one thing very wrong. Anime industry right now is doing better than the 80s and 90s and Japan's population is on a decline too. "In 2010, the elderly accounted for 23% of the population."
http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/30/world/asia/japan-population-decline/index.html

IF you are going to blame anime for the population decline, then it has to be late 80s and 90s anime. You can't blame on 2011 and 2012 anime right because those kids are still 10-17.
Eva arguably created the first popular moe character archetype, Rei.

There were just as much trash and good shows in the 80s and 90s as of right now.
Anime industry was in decline from 2008 to 2010, but dvd/bluray sales are picking now right now.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:13 am Reply with quote
naninanino wrote:
Well, there is the theory of generation shift. Most old bonebags are in their grave or senile so they won't be making any new magnum opuses. The young ones on the other hand, have lived in a different environment, surrounded by video games, anime and manga. This results in anime that are copies of themselves. There is too little outside influence or ambition involved.


Yeah, this is certainly true of some guys. A number of the old masters, Oshii, Miyazaki, Kawajiri, Otomo, just don't seem to be all that interested in working and when they do the results aren't great. Then again, I have to wonder. I hear things, like how apparently Shinichiro Watanabe was trying for ages to get an original project off the ground and couldn't before Kids on the Slope.

It's not just him either. It seems like there are a lot of guys (especially from that late 90s era I was just talking about) who are still pretty young but aren't working these days. Modern people too. Kenji Kamiyama (GitS SAC, Moribito, Eden of the East), Takeshi Koike (Trava, Redline), Masaaki Yuasa (Kemonozume, Kaiba, Tatami Galaxy). None of these guys have worked in two or three years. Sayo Yamamoto (Michiko & Hatchin, Fujiko Mine) only just finally got to direct again after a four year wait...

That's the thing. There's absolutely a case to be made about the lack of talent in the anime industry. In fact, it's more than a case. This problem has been well documented. That said, it's not like there isn't some great talent out there. It just seems like they're generally not working as much as they ought to.

Spotlesseden wrote:
you got one thing very wrong. Anime industry right now is doing better than the 80s and 90s


"Better" in what capacity? If you're speaking economically...well that kinda supports my point. If you're speaking in terms of quality...well that's fine. I'm not very interested in arguing with people who don't see a problem with modern anime. We can agree to disagree.

Quote:
IF you are going to blame anime for the population decline, then it has to be late 80s and 90s anime. You can't blame on 2011 and 2012 anime right because those kids are still 10-17.


I...never once even mentioned "population decline".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:47 pm Reply with quote
Exaar wrote:
The other thing which really annoys me, specifically regarding anime fans, is the inability of some people to accept that modern English dubs of many series are actually very good, and more and more actually superior to the original Japanese audio. Now, that last part is highly subjective, of course, but the objective fact is that dubs have moved forward by leaps and bounds in the past five years. Five years ago, I was on the 'dubs are generally bad' train as well, because it was true. Oh, you had your good dubs here and there, but for the most part they were pretty poor.

However recently, especially in the last two years or so, bad dubs have become the minority. I can't tell you how many shows I've gotten recently, popped the blu-ray in, and been like "I'll start with the dub and if it sucks, I'll switch" and just stayed with the dub the whole time. The acting and writing are, by and large, extremely well done.

I have absolutely no problem with people preferring the Japanese audio. That is a subjective choice. But what I HATE is people who go "This dub is shit, all dubs are shit" when that is objectively false and they are just so stuck in their late-90's opinion that they won't even give newer stuff the benefit of the doubt. My personal opinion is that these people (most of whom) do not speak Japanese simply assume the Japanese acting is better because they don't understand what is being said and so can assign whatever level of natural-sounding speaking to it they choose. In other words, they don't know what normal conversational Japanese sounds like, so they just assume what they are hearing in anime is totally natural and awesome acting. Then they hear English, and knowing full well what conversational english sounds like, go "This doesn't sound real, IT SUCKS". But that's neither here nor there, the point is the acting and writing in most of these modern dubs is actually quite good, and people should be willing to give them more of a chance.

A great example is the forthcoming Steins;Gate dub. I saw the premier of the first five episodes of it at Otakon, and it is fantastic. I would call it tremendously superior to the Japanese. J. Michael Tatum wrote the script, and he adapted it wonderfully. It is not a literal line-for-line translation, but I am of the opinion that as long as you keep the basic ideas intact, a liberal translation is far more satisfying from an entertainment standpoint. The writing in this show is top-notch, the jokes are much funnier than in Japanese (because they have been localized and timing can play a more significant role), and the performances are just stellar. There were about 2000 people in the room, and when the episodes ended they got a standing ovation.

Funimation has started posting 2-3 minute clips on Youtube, and the comments are filled with people going "Funimation ruins anotehr great anime" and "another shit dub". It makes me INCREDIBLY ANGRY because it simply isn't true even from the most subjective standpoint. The performances are fantastic. One person had the gall to criticize Tatum because he 'didn't even try to imitate the Japanese voice actor's voice'. Seriously? You'd rather have someone do a bad impression of another performance than make the character their own in a wonderful, heartfelt way?

You can PREFER the Japanese audio all you like. But calling an English dub 'shit' when it is an excellent performance from all involved is just being closed-minded and petty, and that is probably my #1 complaint about anime and the anime community today.


People's problem with Funimation is they reuse the same VAs in everything and their scripts tend to be just shy of 4Kids at times, taking many liberties because they feel they want to stretch their creative muscles. I would find it incredibly annoying to hear the same VAs in all the major shows, like Zoro, Piccolo, and Elfman using the same voice in three different long-running shounen series like the dubs do. Keep in mind, conventions are aimed mainly at dub-watchers, so it's no surprise people there would enjoy it. Especially if it was a Funimation panel, which presumably the only people would go to are fans of Funimation.

For dubs in general, these shows were originally produced in Japanese for a Japanese audience. The Japanese voices are the original. If you consider anime to be art in any way then the original voice acting is part of the original product. There's no real valid argument against that statement. It would be like drawing over the Mona Lisa with crayons, it ceases to be the original piece of art and just an imitation you're judging it through.

The way you worded your comment makes it sound like you're upset most anime fans don't like dubs, especially after making a blanket statement of claiming most of them 'surpass the original product' and admitting you always default to dub when watching shows,

Though for the record, I don't see how anyone can match Miyano's Okarin. No one has ever managed to get on par with that man's work.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Touma



Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2651
Location: Colorado, USA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:01 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
For dubs in general, these shows were originally produced in Japanese for a Japanese audience. The Japanese voices are the original. If you consider anime to be art in any way then the original voice acting is part of the original product. There's no real valid argument against that statement. It would be like drawing over the Mona Lisa with crayons,


Not exactly. It would be like drawing over a copy of the Mona Lisa. The original is still there, unaltered. You can view whichever one you prefer.
It does seem like the majority of us in North America prefer the crayons.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9322
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:31 pm Reply with quote
Touma wrote:
TitanXL wrote:
For dubs in general, these shows were originally produced in Japanese for a Japanese audience. The Japanese voices are the original. If you consider anime to be art in any way then the original voice acting is part of the original product. There's no real valid argument against that statement. It would be like drawing over the Mona Lisa with crayons,


Not exactly. It would be like drawing over a copy of the Mona Lisa. The original is still there, unaltered. You can view whichever one you prefer.
It does seem like the majority of us in North America prefer the crayons.


Unless BDs start coming out sub-only. Time will tell if that was just so Persona4 could have an expedited US release, or is a precursor of business practices to come. Perhaps both.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:31 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
It would be like drawing over the Mona Lisa with crayons, it ceases to be the original piece of art and just an imitation you're judging it through.


I hope you appreciate the immense irony of making this claim about dubs while arguing in favour of subtitles.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
population_tire



Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 572
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:35 pm Reply with quote
People who feel entitled to watch it for free
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 3804
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:25 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Kenji Kamiyama (GitS SAC, Moribito, Eden of the East), Takeshi Koike (Trava, Redline), Masaaki Yuasa (Kemonozume, Kaiba, Tatami Galaxy). None of these guys have worked in two or three years. Sayo Yamamoto (Michiko & Hatchin, Fujiko Mine) only just finally got to direct again after a four year wait...

That's the thing. There's absolutely a case to be made about the lack of talent in the anime industry. In fact, it's more than a case. This problem has been well documented. That said, it's not like there isn't some great talent out there. It just seems like they're generally not working as much as they ought to.

You make it sound like they have all chosen to take early retirement. I think their absence has a lot more to do with overall trends in the industry.

First there is the general distaste among production committees for original works. Iso Matsuo fought for seven years to find a studio that would enable him to make Dennou Coil. Despite creating one of the anime masterpieces of the past decade, he has been pretty much out of circulation since. The anime industry has always been seen by its corporate investors as primarily a marketing tool for manga, light novels, and more recently visual novels and games, and not as a source of original material. Given that most televised anime have very limited revenue streams, this isn't too surprising. I suspect the more creative people in the industry like those you list may find this stultifying.

Original productions do seem to be having a bit of a comeback in the past couple of years, sparked by successes like Madoka Magica. Shinbo certainly doesn't seem to want for projects. Whatever you may say about him, his shows display a high level of artistic creativity even when they are manga or novel adaptations like Vampire Bund or Bakemonogatari.

Nakamura Kenji also seems to be able to turn out original shows under the auspices of noitaminA. I've found his work since Mononoke rather hit or miss, but I'd put Tsuritama at or near the top of the shows released during the past spring season. It's also been something of a commercial success, selling twice as many discs as Sakamichi no Apollon with which it was paired. I'll just point out that that show was helmed by Watanabe Shinichiro and scored by Kanno Yoko. I suspect it was more highly anticipated than Tsuritama, but Apollon proved to have less staying power in the long run.

Shows like those don't meet the demands of viewers looking for the action shows and space operas of the 80's and 90's, but, frankly, the demand for those shows among the contemporary otaku audience in Japan just doesn't seem to be there. Production committees are going to make shows that they expect will sell well on their own, or will stimulate sales of the original source material or merchandise like figurines and dakimakura.

Another rather interesting original production is AKB0048, with an script by the peripatetic Okada Mari and directed by no less a heavyweight than Kawamori Shoji. It exploited the built-in audience for AKB48 to make a space opera and populate it with moe~ girls. A far cry from Legend of the Galactic Heroes, but one more likely to appeal to the current audience of Japanese anime viewers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:25 pm Reply with quote
yuna49 wrote:
You make it sound like they have all chosen to take early retirement. I think their absence has a lot more to do with overall trends in the industry.


No, to the contrary, that's precisely my point. It's not surprising that we haven't really seen much out of some of the big names from the 80s and 90s. (Miyazaki, Oshii, Kawajiri, Otomo) However, it seems like, especially the last couple years, even younger guys who should still be working aren't.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4828
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:43 pm Reply with quote
The 12/13 TV episode limit is hard for me to deal with. It's simply NOT ENOUGH.
It pretty much never is. In fact, I can't even think of a 13-episode show ending I was completely satisfied with.

*thinks*

...........yeah, nope.

No wait, Tokyo Magnitude 8.0 was wrapped up fine. No complaints there.

But that's like only one among THOUSANDS that was.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
The Lost Prophet



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 46
Location: Australia, Adelaide
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:53 am Reply with quote
lol @ industry doomsayers.

What annoys me most is when a anime dvd/collection has a fanservice style picture on the front, meaning I can't buy it because everything I buy is under immediate inspection from my entire family Razz. Like, what would they think of Bakemonogatari's cover?

I think they looked at me pretty funny when I bought Catherine, lol.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 3804
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:17 am Reply with quote
The Lost Prophet wrote:
What annoys me most is when a anime dvd/collection has a fanservice style picture on the front, meaning I can't buy it because everything I buy is under immediate inspection from my entire family.

I recall having a similar conversation a few years back with a nice teenaged girl who wanted to buy Welcome to the NHK! but could not imagine showing her parents ADV's cover art like this.

Even worse, none of the scenes depicted in the cover art for the various volumes ever appeared in the anime itself. There's no scenes with Kashiwa-senpai suggestively posing in a leather outfit like that one, or in another case a bikini-clad Misaki straddling a motorcycle.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4828
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:17 pm Reply with quote
The Lost Prophet wrote:
lol @ industry doomsayers.

What annoys me most is when a anime dvd/collection has a fanservice style picture on the front, meaning I can't buy it because everything I buy is under immediate inspection from my entire family Razz.


Oh, I freaking HATE this..... Twisted Evil

I get that the market is trying to say "Sex sells!" because it's the truth but look, sometimes the buyer is one who appreciates other things, you know!?
When the companies don't respect that, it's f*cking EMBARRASSING to buy anime!

It also really pisses me off when the male PROTAGONIST isn't even on the cover of an anime DVD. Ayumu is the best character in Kore Wa Zombie Desuka and he's not even on the f*cking cover of the boxset! What the hell is that!? Twisted Evil

When covers feature nothing but scantily clad girl characters, it really feels like the companies are trying to alienate female viewers.
"Go back to your yaoi and soap opera shoujo because that's all female fans are capable of enjoying lulz"

We don't appreciate that message very much. >:I
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> General -> Anime All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 4 of 9

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group