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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 856
Location: Serra Gaucha
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:00 pm Reply with quote
Given my dissatisfaction with the top lists both here and on other sites based on the average score given by fans and the fact that I watched more based on individual lists rather than on these lists I decided to make a top anime list based only on the opinions of more experienced fans. It works on the same way as in these top movies polls based on votes by film critics: each critic gives his/her top 10 movies and each movie receives one point, you aggregate all the points to get a list. For my list instead I used the anime rated 10/10 by more experienced fans both here and on MAL.

Methodology

So far I am only interested in lists with around 500 titles or more, as result I already found out 44 lists which have on average 749.1 titles. The value of the titles rated 10/10 is also a function of how much anime the user listed for each anime listed it yields 1/2 point and these points are them divided by the titles rated 10/10. Hence more experienced fans have greater weight on the list than less experienced ones.

For example, if a user rated 14 titles 10/10 and watched 560 titles, then each title receives 20 points. But if she watched only 280 titles instead, each receives 10 points.

Also, if the list owner gave 10/10 for less than 1.5% of his rated titles I included titles rated 9/10, but gave then half the points of the titles rated 10/10, to preserve the information regarding preference between the highest rated titles.

I plan to gather more than 44 users though I already have picked up the lists from all the more experienced fans I could find here and on MAL. I picked usually the older ones who have watched like 1000 anime or more, younger fans usually have bad taste so I tried to get lists only from people at least 24 years old, though certainly there are some kids around 20-23 years old on the set I already computed. Also I picked the lists that are often not that large from people who review stuff here and on other sites.

In terms of experience one should note that rating 750 anime is about 5,500 hours equivalent to about 3,000 movies, not much less than the number of movies a professional film critic has watched. Roger Ebert, for instance, watched about 15,000 movies over 50 years of career and reviewned 7,000. Though when he died he probably watched over twice the typical amount of movies a film critics has watched, which I guess would be around 5,000 - 6,000.

Still given the huge size of the medium of anime 750 titles is actually not much. I think that ideally a fan should have watched about 3,000 titles to get a good grasp of the medium, especially regarding older decades like the 1970's and 1980's which are ignored by most fans. Hence the list computed here appears to be more a canon of anime made after the late 1980]s rather than a global canon though one could perhaps argue that before the late 1980's anime was mostly restricted to kiddie stuff.

Still I plan to get the lists from several more people, perhaps 100, to get a good idea of how the western world views anime (because of the 44, only 2 were Japanese, 42 were almost certainly either from the Americas or Europe).
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Errinundra
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:14 pm Reply with quote
Are people over the age of 24 and who've seen more than 500 titles better judges of anime than anyone else?

It seems to me that's the cohort your methodology is trying to measure. (Maybe I feel excluded as I haven't got to 500 titles yet?)
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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 856
Location: Serra Gaucha
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:26 pm Reply with quote
I already included your list too, as the ones from several people who rated 300-500 titles as well (including some of reviewers from this site), but I tried to find lists with a huge number of titles as well. I even found one with 4,950 titles.

I think that yes, older and more experienced people would be better. Obviously, that's why they still make movies lists from critics instead of just using the IMDB average ratings. Also, people whose lists are longer have some more obscure titles while the top titles from lists of like 200 anime are the usual stuff (Cowboy Bebop, EVA, Baccano, Spirited Away, etc) that I have already watched.

From the sample I got I already have pretty much well defined which ones will be in the top 30-40. Interestingly while the obvious stuff showed up some not that highly rated titles or particularly famous ones are there. Some stuff that is placed 200-400 here or in MAL showed up in the top 30, for instace.
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Night fox



Joined: 01 Oct 2014
Posts: 445
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:36 pm Reply with quote
In theory your idea is pretty sound, but there are some inevitable problems to consider:

    1. How many of the viewers keep their anime ratings updated? That is, do they actively change the ratings as they gain more experience, or is a given masterpiece rating based on the experience the viewer had 10-15 years ago? (You should value more recent ratings higher than older ones.)

    2. How many times has the viewer seen a rated title? This is related to #1, and the fact that you get a better grasp of a given anime the more you've watched it. You should value ratings of titles with multiple viewings higher than titles seen only once.

    3. What are the viewer's preferences? Even if a viewer has seen more than 500 titles, it doesn't mean that he's seen fair amount of anime from any given genre. He could e.g. have seen 200 sci-fi titles, 200 adventure titles, and maybe seen a dozen titles from each of the other genres. This will generate a skewed result You should value ratings higher when the viewer is experienced with the genre than when he's not.


I'm sure there are other issues with creating a list like that, but no matter what results you end up with, I'll still be interested in reading the finished product. Wink

Good luck!
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Alan45
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Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:54 pm Reply with quote
This strikes me as an exercise in futility. However it is your time so have fun with it. In the end you will end up with one more list for people to discuss but mostly ignore.

Personally I find the narrative write up of a reviewer to be of more use. It tells me the setting of the story and in most cases where it is going. I find the rating to be more or less useless.

To each his own though.
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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:08 pm Reply with quote
I am doing this to get a nice set of recommentations of watch to watch. And also of curiosity.

Though I watched most of the stuff that is near the top so far. I don't care that much about genres and setting, in fact, I care about quality, in the sense that if something keeps me entertaining and moves me, no matter the genre or setting.

By the way, with 44 lists this is the top 25 so far:

01. Cowboy Bebop (TV)
02. Puella Magi Madoka Magica (TV)
03. Mushi-Shi (TV)
04. Spirited Away (movie)
05. Millennium Actress (movie)
06. Neon Genesis Evangelion (TV)
07. My Neighbor Totoro (movie)
08. Grave of the Fireflies (movie)
09. Haibane Renmei (TV)
10. Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood (TV)
11. Fate/Zero (TV)
12. Neon Genesis Evangelion The End of Evangelion (movie)
13. Gurren Lagann (TV)
14. Baccano (TV)
15. Legend of the Galactic Heroes (OVA)
16. Revolutionary Girl Utena (TV)
17. Evangelion: 2.0 You Can (Not) Advance (movie)
18. Whisper of the Heart (movie)
19. Bunny Drop (TV)
20. Monster (TV)
21. Code Geass Lelouch Rebellion (TV)
22. Bakemonogatari (TV)
23. Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex 2nd GIG (TV)
24. Princess Mononoke (movie)
25. Azumanga Daioh (TV)

I think watching all these 25 is a good way to know some of the best anime, I watched 23 of these so far, all have been great experiences.
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DuelGundam2099



Joined: 07 Dec 2014
Posts: 393
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:22 pm Reply with quote
I will simply give my 10/10 list, albeit it isn't entirely up to date (still got to add Fafner: Exodus in the near future).



1. 1001 Nights
2. Genesis of Aquarion /Wings of Betrayal and Glory
3. Gear Fighter Dendoh
4. Death Note*
5. Fang of The Sun Dougram/Dougram Vs. Roundfacer*
6. Zegapain
7. The Ultraman
8. Shin Mazinger Z Impact! Z Chapter*
9. Claymore
10. Brave of The Sun Fighbird
11. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann: The Lights in The Sky Are Stars
12. Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny/Final Plus + Super Nova*
13. Neon Genesis Evangelion/End of Evangelion
14. Nobunaga The Fool
15. Six God Combination God Mars
16. E.Y.E.S. of Mars
17. Brave Command Dagwon/The Boy With The Crystal Eyes
18. Steel Jeeg
19. Gravion/Zwei
20. The Ideon: Be Invoked
21. Super Robot Wars Original Generation: The Inspector*
22. Giant Gorg
23. Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny Special Edition
24. MD Geist 2: Death Force
25. Brave Fighter of Legend Da-Garn
26. Mobile Suit Victory Gundam
27. Gaiking: Legend of Daiku Maryu*
28. The Vision of Escaflowne
29. Zoids
30. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann/Gekijouban Zenyasai Special: Viral's Sweet Dream
31. Fafner: Heaven and Earth
32. Blood Plus
33. Mazinger Z
34. Great Dangaioh
35. Mobile Suit Gundam SEED/After-Phase Between The Stars
36. New Getter Robo
37. Godannar!! Season 1/2
38. Brave Raideen*
39. Rebuild of Evangelion 2.0: You Can (Not) Advance/3D
40. After War Gundam X*
41. Mazinkaiser SKL*
42. Eureka Seven: Pocket Full of Rainbows
43. Betterman
44. Mobile Suit Gundam 00: A Wakening of The Trailblazer
45. Combat Mecha Xabungle
46. Super Electromagnetic Robot Combattler V
47. Miami Guns*
48. Getter Robo G
49. Dougram: Documentary of The Fang of The Sun
50. Space Runaway Ideon
51. Death and Rebirth of Evangelion
52. RahXephon
53. Angel's Egg
54. Steel God Jeeg
55. Galaxy Cyclone Braiger
56. Gundam 00 Season 2
57. Escaflowne: A Girl in Gaea
58. Getter Robo Armageddon*
59. Rebuild of Evangelion 1.0: You Are (Not) Alone
60. Armored Trooper VOTOMS*
61. Battle Commander Daimos
62. Samurai Flamenco
63. Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Special Edition
64. Steamboy
65. Dancouga: Blazing Epilogue
66. Nausicaa of The Valley of The Wind
67. Gun X Sword/San
68. Brave Police J-Decker
69. Lord of Lords Ryu Knight
70. Neo Ranga
71. Afro Samurai/Resurrection
72. Neo Human Casshern
73. Aldnoah.Zero Season 2
74. SD Gundam Force
75. Akira
76. Star Driver/Movie
77. Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust
78. Aura Battler Dunbine/Tales of Neo Byston Well
79. Winter Days
80. Mobile Suit Gundam 0083: Stardust Memory: The Afterglow of Zeon
81. Shuten Doji: The Star Hand Kid
82. Aquarion Evol
83. Diebuster
84. Porco Rosso
85. Tokyo Godfathers
86. UFO Robo Grendizer*
87. Big O Season 1/2*
88. New Mobile Report Gundam Wing*
89. Eureka Seven AO: Astral Ocean/Original Short Anime
90. GaoGaiGar FINAL
91. Pale Cocoon
92. Super Dimension Century Orguss 02
93. Mobile Suit Gundam 0083: Stardust Memory/Cima Special
94. Armored Trooper VOTOMS: Alone Again
95. Getter Robo*
96. MD Geist
97. God Bless Dancouga
98. SD Gundam Gaiden
99. Heroic Age
100. Six God Combination God Mars Movie
101. Hellsing Ultimate*
102. Freezing/Specials
103. Riki-Oh 2: Child of Destruction
104. Armored Trooper VOTOMS: Pailsen Files/Movie
105. Aldnoah.Zero Season 1
106. Mad Bull 34
107. Super Beast Machine God Dancouga/Requiem For Victims
108. Night Head Genesis*
109. Gunbuster/Science Lesson + EX Renewel
110. Space Guardian Angel Links*



I should note that I am one of those people that has seen over 750 titles, but I never rewatch anything. For those wanting a near-full list here is my MAL:

http://myanimelist.net/profile/DuelGundam2099

Also worth noting is that I don't give eroge adaptions scores, if I did you'd see Demonbane on this list somewhere in the mid-80s to late-90s.
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Key
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:37 pm Reply with quote
Okay, I'm issuing a warning for this thread now, before it gets out of hand.

Un-annotated listing is not allowed, per forum rules. I will allow the OP's ranking list for purpose of this exercise, but that's it. Any other lists will be removed from this point on.
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Calathan
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:39 pm Reply with quote
I'm curious if my list was one of the ones you used.

Anyway, though, I think the suggestion that choosing a small number of users will make for "better" rankings is just silly. Basically by definition, what lots of people think are good anime are things that many people would agree are good. It isn't that most other people have bad taste in anime, but just that your taste in anime is different from a lot of other people. If older anime fans tend to like the same shows as you then perhaps just using their rankings will produce a list of top titles more in agreement with your tastes. But I don't think it is right to say that list is better than any other in general, just that it is better for you.

Also, have you considered instead using the like-minded user feature to find users who have similar tastes with you? That might be a better way to find ratings that agree with you opinion.
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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 856
Location: Serra Gaucha
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:29 pm Reply with quote
Calathan wrote:
I'm curious if my list was one of the ones you used.


Yep.

I used 49 lists so far. Including the lists of about 25 people here and about the same number from MAL.

Quote:
Anyway, though, I think the suggestion that choosing a small number of users will make for "better" rankings is just silly. Basically by definition, what lots of people think are good anime are things that many people would agree are good. It isn't that most other people have bad taste in anime, but just that your taste in anime is different from a lot of other people. If older anime fans tend to like the same shows as you then perhaps just using their rankings will produce a list of top titles more in agreement with your tastes. But I don't think it is right to say that list is better than any other in general, just that it is better for you.


I haven't focused only on older fans, I have included both younger and older fans actually but fact is that the ratings in MAL are the ratings given by mostly 20 year olds without much experience. Instead, if we include on average more experienced fans (including those with very long lists and those that write on blogs, i.e. anime critics) and don't include low ratings, only the top favorites from each.

Also there is a major difference in methodology between the average user ratings and this exercise: the first is a measure of "accessibility": high rating means that everybody who watches it likes it. This is a measure of "power": a high rating means a large proportion of people who watched it regard it as great.

Quote:
Also, have you considered instead using the like-minded user feature to find users who have similar tastes with you? That might be a better way to find ratings that agree with you opinion.


The idea here is also to make sort of a canon of anime list. Similar to those top movies lists composed by movie critics.

Think of this exercise and the average ratings lists as the difference between the Sign and Sound top 250 poll list and the IMDB top 250.
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DuelGundam2099



Joined: 07 Dec 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:40 pm Reply with quote
Where exactly may we see the lists and data you have collected?
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Errinundra
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:54 pm Reply with quote
Which of my lists did you use: ANN or MAL? The former is amended regularly while the latter is mainly used to keep track of which episodes I'm up to. My ratings there are throw away judgements I make after the first viewing. They are never re-assessed.

Your methodology doesn't really achieve a canonical list. It has only two 20th century TV series (NGE & RGU) and none prior to the mid-nineties. To me a comprehensive list would represent all eras. I know that's what you're trying to do (and I think it's a better list than the current ANN Bayesian list) but it still has a strong bias towards 21st century titles.

I've seen all but three of the list (I never got past the first episode of each of Azumangah Daioh, Bakemonogatari and Code Geass although I hope to watch AD one day.) Of your list I think a good case can be made for all them, although there are a couple I didn't much like, particularly Gurren Lagann, which I think has a crap premise and a reprehensible ideology.

Although I do rate it as very good I am surprised that Cowboy Bebop tops the list. It seems to me that it appeals to the North American psyche in a particular way. I wonder if it would remain #1 if you removed the North American lists (which are probably the vast majority).
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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 856
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:10 pm Reply with quote
I am tired of computing more information and I don't think it will change significantly if I add several more users (the raking might change a little in the positioning but the top 80 will stay mostly the same).

Sample:

A total of 49 people's lists who watched in aggregate 36,000 anime titles, on average 750 anime titles, was used. Among these 49 people include: Several reviewer's who review anime here (ex. Key, JesuOtaku) and in blogs (such as this http://wrongeverytime.com/), and also people from MAL and here who have very large lists with like over a thousand titles. The idea is to get a list of titles which a substantial subset of these anime critics and hardcore fans regard as great.

A total of 944 titles were rated as 10/10 (or in a few cases, 9/10 if the ones rated 10/10 were less than 1.5% of the total) by at least one of the 49 anime buffs. There is great variety among all, including a short movie from 1918 to mecha series from the 1980's, to new hits such as K-On!! and children's classics like Doraemon and Sailor Moon. Out of these 944 titles I selected the top 80, why 80? Because all were rated as 10/10 by at least 4 people out of the 49.

This is the list, note that many titles were tied in the number of points so they are in the same position in the ranking:

1. Puella Magi Madoka Magica
2. Cowboy Bebop
3. Spirited Away
4. Neon Genesis Evangelion
5. Millennium Actress
6. Mushi-Shi
7. My Neighbor Totoro
8. Haibane Renmei
9. Legend of the Galactic Heroes
10. Fate/Zero Second Season
10. Gurren Lagann
12. Neon Genesis Evangelion The End of Evangelion
12. Revolutionary Girl Utena
14. Grave of the Fireflies
15. Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood
16. Evangelion: 2.0 You Can (Not) Advance
17. Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumia
18. Princess Mononoke
19. Trigun
20. 5 Centimeters Per Second
20. Bakemonogatari
22. Akira
22. Monster
24. Bunny Drop
24. Code Geass Lelouch Rebellion
24. Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex 2nd GIG
24. Wolf Children
28. Azumanga Daioh
29. The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya
30. Mushishi: The Next Chapter
31. Baccano
31. FLCL
31. Rurouni Kenshin: Trust & Betrayal
34. Fate/Zero First Season
35. Code Geass
35. Gunbuster
37. Clannad: After Story
38. Fullmetal Alchemist
38. Perfect Blue
40. Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
41. Redline
42. Death Note
42. Steins Gate
44. Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo
44. Tokyo Godfathers
44. Toradora!
47. Aria: The Origination
47. Summer Wars
49. Kanon
49. The Tatami Galaxy
51. Princess Tutu
52. Welcome to the NHK!
53. Gunslinger Girl
54. Whisper of the Heart
55. Barakamon
55. Wolf's Rain
57. Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind
58. Blood+
59. Black Lagoon: Second Barrage
59. Paranoia Agent
61. Kino's Journey
61. Paprika (movie)
63. Full Metal Panic: Fumoffu?
64. Cowboy Bebop The Movie
65. Honey and Clover
65. Honey and Clover II
65. Moribito - Guardian of the Spirit
65. Shirobako
69. Serial Experiments Lain
70. Rose of Versailles
71. Anohana: The Flower we Saw That Day
71. Kiki's Delivery Service
73. BECK: Mongolian Chop Squad
74. Elfen Lied
74. Ping Pong
76. Cardcaptor Sakura
77. Girl who Leap Through Time
78. Nodame Cantabile
78. Planetes
78. RahXephon


Note some important differences between this and the ANN's anime ranking. For example, the hit and miss hardcore melodrama of Anohana is in the 15th place there, here it is ranked at 71.

While well regarded classics such as Haibane Renmei, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Cardcaptor Sakura, RahXephon and Serial Experiments Lain which are ranked 101, 388, 449, 334 and 470 respectively in the ANN's ranking here are ranked at the 8, 12, 76, 78 and 69th places, respectively.
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DuelGundam2099



Joined: 07 Dec 2014
Posts: 393
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:20 pm Reply with quote
Do you have a pastebin with all this information from the lists by any chance?
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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:26 pm Reply with quote
errinundra wrote:
Which of my lists did you use: ANN or MAL? The former is amended regularly while the latter is mainly used to keep track of which episodes I'm up to. My ratings there are throw away judgements I make after the first viewing. They are never re-assessed.


ANN.

Quote:
Your methodology doesn't really achieve a canonical list. It has only two 20th century TV series (NGE & RGU) and none prior to the mid-nineties. To me a comprehensive list would represent all eras. I know that's what you're trying to do (and I think it's a better list than the current ANN Bayesian list) but it still has a strong bias towards 21st century titles.


You are right, this is more of a canon of modern anime, since the late 1980's, well it includes The Rose of Versailles from 1979, Nausicaa from 1984 but the rest is all from 1988 onwards.

Thing is very few fans, even those who review stuff in sites and blogs, have watched much from before 1990. The guy who had watched 5,000 anime had stuff from 1918 on his rated 10/10 list. Though sadly he was the only one with detailed knowledge of anime's century long history.

I think someone who speaks Japanese should get the hardcore Japanese fans' lists to make something more broad than this. Out of the 49 lists, only 2 are from people who claim to live in Japan.

Quote:
I've seen all but three of the list (I never got past the first episode of each of Azumangah Daioh, Bakemonogatari and Code Geass although I hope to watch AD one day.) Of your list I think a good case can be made for all them, although there are a couple I didn't much like, particularly Gurren Lagann, which I think has a crap premise and a reprehensible ideology.


I cried both times I watched Gurren Lagann. GL is heavy metal animated! It's super over the top, ludicrous to the maximum degree, it's the most "aggressive" thing in that sense that I ever watched, movies and TV.

Quote:
Although I do rate it as very good I am surprised that Cowboy Bebop tops the list. It seems to me that it appeals to the North American psyche in a particular way. I wonder if it would remain #1 if you removed the North American lists (which are probably the vast majority).


Cowboy Bebop now is 2nd place though with 49 lists. It's incredibly popular and it is an extremely well made show, almost perfect. Yes, it appeals to the American psyche, but I included many lists from people who claim to live outside of North America, still living in Europe or South America, which are also heavily americanized these days (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtL8FyF3ZxU Very Happy ).

Anyway, I think this is a pretty good picture of most of the anime considered great produced over the past 30 years according to the english speaking fandom.

DuelGundam2099 wrote:
Do you have a pastebin with all this information from the lists by any chance?


No, but all lists are public lists here and on the ANN. I just collected the titles rated 10/10 and added the points on a spreadsheet.


Last edited by Jose Cruz on Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
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