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NEWS: Japan's Law Penalizing Downloaders, Criminalizing Ripping Goes Into Effect


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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4208

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:21 pm Reply with quote
Polycell wrote:
The idea behind copyright is that granting an author a monopoly would incentive more creative works, thus enriching society. The current idea of it as some moral right of the author is the reason it's gotten so abusive lately(after all, what sort of harebrained moral right expires?).

Copyright infringement isn't inherently good nor evil, neither just nor criminal; it's simply illegal(malum prohibitum), much like violating any other monopoly.


That's not what copyright is for. The point of copyright is do that a person has an inherent ownership of their work. If I write a book and publish it, I don't want some other asshole copying it and passing it off as his own work. That's why copyright exists. Have you ever actually created something--that is, actualy spent months/years of laborious work crafting it? I have (I've been working on a book series for over 3 years now), and that's why I don't buy into ridiculous anarchist beliefs about getting rid of copyright.

I want to own the stuff I created, and now I'm the problem because I, god forbid, don't like people stealing and shitting over my years of work?
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aereus



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:42 pm Reply with quote
The reason they can't get anime released sooner is precisely because they aren't some random people just winging it and throwing a file out to the internet.

Business transactions between corporations take time. The average anime has "lots of hands in the pot" to get okays from to use their material, set the royalties, etc.

I'm actually surprised that simulcasting came about as quickly as it did. That was actually very progressive for the Japanese to let happen when legal streaming was only around for like a year.
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martinic



Joined: 02 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:50 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
Polycell wrote:
The idea behind copyright is that granting an author a monopoly would incentive more creative works, thus enriching society. The current idea of it as some moral right of the author is the reason it's gotten so abusive lately(after all, what sort of harebrained moral right expires?).

Copyright infringement isn't inherently good nor evil, neither just nor criminal; it's simply illegal(malum prohibitum), much like violating any other monopoly.


That's not what copyright is for. The point of copyright is do that a person has an inherent ownership of their work. If I write a book and publish it, I don't want some other asshole copying it and passing it off as his own work. That's why copyright exists. Have you ever actually created something--that is, actualy spent months/years of laborious work crafting it? I have (I've been working on a book series for over 3 years now), and that's why I don't buy into ridiculous anarchist beliefs about getting rid of copyright.

I want to own the stuff I created, and now I'm the problem because I, god forbid, don't like people stealing and shitting over my years of work?

Copyright realy helps people not having their work stolen and some other name put instead. But for it to spread in the internet is like free advertising to your work 1 out of 3 pirates will buy your work if they realy like it and it's available in their country.

For me piracy is way to reach mainstream media(mostly anime and manga wich are not very popular here) rarely seen or nonexistent in my country.
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Polycell
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:39 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
That's not what copyright is for. The point of copyright is do that a person has an inherent ownership of their work. If I write a book and publish it, I don't want some other asshole copying it and passing it off as his own work. That's why copyright exists. Have you ever actually created something--that is, actualy spent months/years of laborious work crafting it? I have (I've been working on a book series for over 3 years now), and that's why I don't buy into ridiculous anarchist beliefs about getting rid of copyright.

I want to own the stuff I created, and now I'm the problem because I, god forbid, don't like people stealing and shitting over my years of work?
Chagen, crack open a history book sometime - or just look at the US constitution. Copyright laws were created with the intent of encouraging additional creative works by granting monopolies over the work(@Kikaioh: each work counts as a separate product); for this reason, the term was always very short(eg, I believe the US term was either 7 or 14 years, with one renewal), since very few things won't have run their commercial course by then. The idea of these monopolies as a moral right is significantly newer and its rise is concomitant with the increasingly abusive character copyright law has taken; the former at the very least providing cover for the latter.

Lastly, we're of course working from two different conceptions of property rights; what you view as enforcing yours I see as violating mine. Since a massive debate in this thread won't change anybody's mind, let me just leave you with something to chew on if you will: What kind of harebrained moral right expires?
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dan9999



Joined: 25 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:25 pm Reply with quote
Polycell wrote:
Chagen46 wrote:
That's not what copyright is for. The point of copyright is do that a person has an inherent ownership of their work. If I write a book and publish it, I don't want some other asshole copying it and passing it off as his own work. That's why copyright exists. Have you ever actually created something--that is, actualy spent months/years of laborious work crafting it? I have (I've been working on a book series for over 3 years now), and that's why I don't buy into ridiculous anarchist beliefs about getting rid of copyright.

I want to own the stuff I created, and now I'm the problem because I, god forbid, don't like people stealing and shitting over my years of work?
Chagen, crack open a history book sometime - or just look at the US constitution. Copyright laws were created with the intent of encouraging additional creative works by granting monopolies over the work(@Kikaioh: each work counts as a separate product); for this reason, the term was always very short(eg, I believe the US term was either 7 or 14 years, with one renewal), since very few things won't have run their commercial course by then. The idea of these monopolies as a moral right is significantly newer and its rise is concomitant with the increasingly abusive character copyright law has taken; the former at the very least providing cover for the latter.

Lastly, we're of course working from two different conceptions of property rights; what you view as enforcing yours I see as violating mine. Since a massive debate in this thread won't change anybody's mind, let me just leave you with something to chew on if you will: What kind of harebrained moral right expires?


NOONE WANTS TO NOT PAY A REAL CREATOR...MANY ARE AGAINST THE INNOVATION PREVENTION; COMPETITION CRUSHER COPYRIGHT!

How naive people can be, so say the least, copyright only helps THE MIDDLEMEN NOT THE CREATOR.

Like i said time and time again, everyone would be more than happy to pay a creator but nowadays the middlemen has worked hard to win the hatred of many.

let me tell you one of the possible outcomes without copyright BS:

You are an author, without copyright and some REAL tool/law to compensate YOU AND ONLY YOU the creator, anyone would have the liberty of exploiting your work and of course you would be compensated for it, imagine if theres a number of people/companies/etc that liked... how about a novel.... and some on the US want to make a movie, say hollywood, but theres an independent studio that also liked it and want to make one too, maybe less flashy but want to try it nonetheless, maybe some in latin America want to make a telenovela, in Japan someone want to make and anime, some other stuido wants an OVA ver, and some other a movie version....do you think this liberty is bad for you the creator?

In the manga world, without shitty copyright but with an effective way to compensate the REAL CREATOR what if you were a mangaka and someone in Europe wanted to publish your manga, what if someone in the US anted it? Hoe about in Australia, how about in, ect, will if affect you creator that theres no copyright for the middlemen preventing others from exploiting your work freely around the world?

Now what if someone wanted liked your story and wanted to re-imagine it, take your world and create anew story, take your characters and create a new story, or have their own version of your story? In my perspective people should be free to do that as well, as long as they don't try to pass your very same work as their own and as long as you the original author is compensated fairly if there is profits.

The above could be similar to how anyone can use Shakespeare (or any other public domain works) work and modify, alter and adapt their own version.

In a world without copyright that favors only the middlemen and monopoly you or me or any company would be free to try their luck, you and me can make it too and not just Hollywood, big publishers, etc.

Not mentioning that a creator would not get only like 10% and surrender 90% to the middlemen, they would get whole of the money and if they need marketing/publishers/managers/etc/etc/etc then they can get the best services and pay them, so middlemen would still eb around in the form of specialized companies but they would no longer pull the strings and control the flow of information.


That kind of reality would be bad for the middlemen thou, with direct harsh competition, the monopoly would crumble, what happens now is that creators DO NOT EVEN OWN their work, they have no option but to share the darn copyright with a company and in many cases give uop their right to a company indefinitely, go out a educate yourself to see how even a creator is not able to use their work anymore, many writer for example post a script on their work on their own site and copyright is used against them because they no longer own their work!!!

Thats why I tell anyone that believe copyright is there for the author that they are naive and cannot beyond their nose, copyright i there so only one of the big corps wins and noone else can compete with them once they have a work, is there so you and me cannot make it big either, is there to crush and prevent any competition and its there so the middlemen can keep hostage creators and customers alike.

There are many authors that want to take advantage of the internet, but since they don't own their work anymore or share copyright with a publisher they are prevented from doing so...

Why do you think ken Akamatsu is doing what he is? he has said it or hinted at it a few times, copyright and publisher are evil and he is fe up with them and using the internet instead. Just recently he really got fed up because publishers anted even more control, mangakas are nowadays not creator but mere employees!

See also why Say Hello to Black Jack creator has done whats he's done and now fights to retain alone his copyright, just so he can publish online his works too without some shitty publisher telling him he can't because numerous BS reasons.

The same reason why the industry tell you that worldwide broadcast/releases cannot be done because this and that, reverse importation paranoia, etc, etc all because they will lose control and will no longer has japanese market hostage with the high prices..


Rukiia wrote:
dan9999 wrote:
Rukiia wrote:
jmaeshawn wrote:
I laugh at all of those who say that there is no need to download anything illegally, all of it can be obtained through legal sources.
Um....
Rukiia wrote:
There really is no need to download anymore except for maybe really really old titles that never got licensed (and/or, at this point, never will).



Okl, prove your saying Rukiia, if you are so sure, please point me to the legal English streams/simulcast of:

-Ginga he kick off
-Toriko
-Gon
-Lets try a new one of this season: Kamisama hajimemashita, it already aired no simulcast yet Sad


....You are not really reading what I am saying, you know? I never even said that everything is available on legal streams. Rolling Eyes But
if you insist: Toriko = Brought to you by Funimation. You're welcome.

As for Ginga e Kickoff!!, they picked up a few new sports Anime on Crunchyroll last Spring and since sports is generally not that popular of a genre they probably only picked out what looked good.

Gon - You are probably the only person who brought this Anime up. What does that tell you? Laughing

Kamisama Hajimemashita - Now hold on a minute. Crunchyroll is just starting to pick up Fall titles so that one might be next for all we know. Sometimes they are late with picking stuff. Have some patience.


I don't think you were even trying there. Laughing



Thanks for answering with excuses Rukiia, thank you, thanks to this none has brought up again the threes no need to download anything anymore, the only for old shows, and you subtly changed your words to not everything is available...THANK YOU


Now whats wrong with Gon and that only me mentions it? Arashi no Yory also good both getting attention form some group....


Toriko, I know pal, thanks for trying, see how I said RIGHT NOW--LEGALLY? I mentioned it so I could tell you: "Thank you for your interest. Unfortunately, this site is not available in your country. " Thanks for further proving that NOT EVERYTHING is available and the fallacy of the "no need to try "other methods" in this day and age".

And for you answer to the others you come up with not popular so sorry and some "only you mention it" so sorry? Thanks for you answer and made it it even more clear. By your words should I wait patiently until its comes my way? Oh wait it will never......because you know, the world is not only NA, UK, AU...to get physical copies...oh wait you will come up with the weak then import perspective, sorry but many have already told this is not a viable option to many, if it is your you and have the means to do so congrats, not everyone has your own circumstances.


Last edited by dan9999 on Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Polycell
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Joined: 16 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:03 pm Reply with quote
dan9999 wrote:
[Giant-ass rant]
Way back before copyright was an international affair, a number of British authors would sell copies of their manuscripts to the highest American bidder, gaining a decent chunk of money upfront for the coveted first mover advantage; another possible avenue is selling the privilege of being the official version. More locally, it's probable that you'd see advances start to rise to compensate for the lack of residuals. Monetizing creative works without copyright is entirely possible; the fact that you can't, don't or won't understand how is irrelevant(given the number of personalities involved, something coming out of left field is practically a given).
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:22 pm Reply with quote
I think I may want to clarify: I don't have a problem with sharing works for no profit. If I were to make a game and sell it on the internet, and people start torrenting it, I wouldn't care. I'm not losing any sales and it's free advertising. It's not even "stealing", there's no loss of money.

However, if someone were to pass that game off as their own creation and profit off of it, THAT would annoy. I'm talking about that when mention "stealing". I don't see a problem with piracy, only stealing and plagarism.
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GWOtaku



Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 606

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:37 pm Reply with quote
dan9999 wrote:


Why do you think ken Akamatsu is doing what he is? he has said it or hinted at it a few times, copyright and publisher are evil and he is fe up with them and using the internet instead. Just recently he really got fed up because publishers anted even more control, mangakas are nowadays not creator but mere employees!


Akamatsu can afford to experiment because he is already an established success. Only in fantasy are freeloaders paving the way to a golden and prosperous creator-driven era. I see lots of platitudes about how paying for things only helps evil, nasty corporations (we are supposed to take your word for this, apparently) and essentially nothing about how failure to support an industry somehow inevitably leads to its prosperity.
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dan9999



Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Posts: 648

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:48 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
I think I may want to clarify: I don't have a problem with sharing works for no profit. If I were to make a game and sell it on the internet, and people start torrenting it, I wouldn't care. I'm not losing any sales and it's free advertising. It's not even "stealing", there's no loss of money.

However, if someone were to pass that game off as their own creation and profit off of it, THAT would annoy. I'm talking about that when mention "stealing". I don't see a problem with piracy, only stealing and plagarism.


Ah, some common sense, and some vision, indeed, as some real author that have noticed and are not brainwashed the the middlemen, it can only benefit you, now if there was a way to pay you directly, those that loved your game would do it gladly, how can people do that without being criminalized by your middlemen partners? second agreed, noone is saying its alright to plagiarize your work and make it as their own, that is indeed wrong and should be punished.


Moreover many may like your game and may want to publish it in their own location, maybe in their town only or whole country, commercialize it....would you be against it, you a creator, if say, I wanted to publish your game, I don't have money for an expensive license upfront, only enough to get me started promoting your game, would be alright IF/ONCE profits come I share thekm with you, at the very least if no profit it will promote you no?

I like yous story/characters may I try my own perspective of your story for no profit? Based on your comment yes, bu then I want to try it for commercial purposes, I want to make a movie, anime, etc, you would be against it if I share a part of the profit as the original author and credit you accordingly?

With current copyright law can you tell me how to do that without your middlemen owners coming to hunt me down and crush me and even imprison me? You know free competition?

GWOtaku wrote:
dan9999 wrote:


Why do you think ken Akamatsu is doing what he is? he has said it or hinted at it a few times, copyright and publisher are evil and he is fe up with them and using the internet instead. Just recently he really got fed up because publishers anted even more control, mangakas are nowadays not creator but mere employees!


Akamatsu can afford to experiment because he is already an established success. Only in fantasy are freeloaders paving the way to a golden and prosperous creator-driven era. I see lots of platitudes about how paying for things only helps evil, nasty corporations (we are supposed to take your word for this, apparently) and essentially nothing about how failure to support an industry somehow inevitably leads to its prosperity.


Go back and read my post. Whats important for you, for a creator to prosper, have real ownership of his/her/their work and have the liberty to exploit it? or for the middlemen = industry, that only happen to have the money to get even richer? Because that whats happening.

Go out a broaden your horizons, its true that an established creator will have it easier on their own and can fight back the publishers, but its not like unknown ones are not having success on their own, go out and see all the unknown creators in different fields that are fighting and having success with their own means, this is unfortunately not fully happening in the anime/manga as yet except a few examples, but go see whats happening in other industries like in music, games and probably other I don't even know with independent musicians/developers, if they are not having more success its only because the monopoly via copyright controls everything otherwise anyone would have more freedom and more fair opportunities to shine.

Your industry is a rotten monopoly and control via copyright that needs to die, if the companies themselves need to die is another story, I don see the need as they can exist as specialized companies providing a service, how can that work in harmony is another topic that can make us discuss for so long, I don't claim to know it all, you may have your ideas, maybe you believe it cannot be done, a simply perspective is if the author has the means or gets his own investors he can merely pay a fee for services, if no money your actual investors are fine but since the author would have all the control they can negotiate the share everyone gets, as long as we are paying the creator and he/she/they have the control and not middlemen things will definitely work better, specially in favor of creators and fans.

Again, I don't claim it have to be like how i mentioned it, its one idea i have of many, you may have your own, or disagree, it all comes down that creators need to be respected and have full right of their creations and be free competition without a monopoly controlling everything and pulling all strings, basically keeping hostage creators and fans alike.

I dunno how anyone could care about a rotten industry that says a creator should surrender rights, taking advantage that most have no money to make it on their one and the compensation can be as much as 10% only and as little as you paying THEM an not really earning money from your creations...


Last edited by dan9999 on Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:30 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Chagen46



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:50 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Moreover many may like your game and may want to publish it in their own location, maybe in their town only or whole country, commercialize it....would you be against it, you a creator, if say, I wanted to publish your game, I don't have money for an expensive license upfront, only enough to get me started promoting your game, would be alright IF/ONCE profits come I share thekm with you, at the very least if no profit it will promote you no?



I probably wouldn't have cared at all, really. Actually, I would almost certainly publish it online anyway.
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Kikaioh
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:06 pm Reply with quote
Polycell wrote:
Chagen, crack open a history book sometime - or just look at the US constitution. Copyright laws were created with the intent of encouraging additional creative works by granting monopolies over the work(@Kikaioh: each work counts as a separate product); for this reason, the term was always very short(eg, I believe the US term was either 7 or 14 years, with one renewal), since very few things won't have run their commercial course by then. The idea of these monopolies as a moral right is significantly newer and its rise is concomitant with the increasingly abusive character copyright law has taken; the former at the very least providing cover for the latter.

Lastly, we're of course working from two different conceptions of property rights; what you view as enforcing yours I see as violating mine. Since a massive debate in this thread won't change anybody's mind, let me just leave you with something to chew on if you will: What kind of harebrained moral right expires?


As I mentioned in the previous thread, the term "monopoly" is in regards to commodities, not individual products. That's why the media industries are considered oligopolies, not monopolies. You're interchanging usages of the word, conflating the "economic" and "exclusive possessor" definitions of the word, possibly from a confusion of "intellectual property" rights being in reference to both patents and copyright. A patent can be a monopoly when it's granted to the creator of a new and unique commodity, who could subsequently possess a singular (albeit time-constrained) control over that commodity's market. But you can't economically call, say, a book or a TV show a monopoly, anymore than you can call Hyundai's line of Accents, MayTag's line of dishwasher's, or Sony's line of Playstation's a monopoly --- there are other competitors on the market selling differentiated versions of the same product. Saying that Akira Toriyama has a monopoly over Dragon Ball only makes sense in the "exclusive possessor" usage of the term, such as saying a person has a monopoly over their own home, or a monopoly over the bathroom. People wouldn't say that he has an economic monopoly over Dragon Ball, because Dragon Ball in and of itself isn't considered a commodity --- there are other differentiated goods (i.e. other series of manga) available on the market, and Akira Toriyama doesn't have singular control over the manga market itself.

Also, "moral rights" usually refers to specific rights granted to copyright owners (mainly, right to attribution, right to have a work published under a pseudonym/anonymously, and right to the integrity of a work), so your question is a little funny. But even then, I don't see anything "hare-brained" about the fact that such rights expire, considering they expire 70 years after you die (in the United States at least). A more relevant question would be "how many rights are still applicable 70 years after you die"?
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potatochobit



Joined: 26 Aug 2009
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Location: TEXAS

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:15 pm Reply with quote
Polycell wrote:
potatochobit wrote:
The average person cannot buy things off the japanese itunes store, your friend is incorrect

first of all, Japan's credit card system is separate from ours, even though it has a visa logo there is an extremely high chance the transaction will be denied or suspended requiring you contact the bank.
That's got sod all to do with the card system or even Visa - that's purely a policy of your bank. For byspell, my credit union's asked me about the one purchase I made from Japan on my debit card and a $300 domestic internet purchase I made not too long ago while CapitalOne has never not once raised the slightest peep about anything I've boughten, from Japan or elsewhere.


you are partly mistaken. what that means is the store you purchased at allows for foreign credit cards. Obviously, places you would import anime goods from would do so. go try and open a yahoo wallet account for auction bidding and you will definitely run into trouble (at least as of last year). remember, not everyone ships internationally. and back to the original itunes comment - that is the reason you need to open a Japanese itunes account with a GIFT card.
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dtm42



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:17 pm Reply with quote
In this day and age, if people like a free work that was put on the internet by the creators they will gladly pay for it.

Bands have released their albums online for free and then accepted donations from people. No slimy middlemen, no distribution lines, no having to burn CDs, no fuss or bother, maximum amount of people exposed to the band's work, and goodwill to the band from grateful fans. And it isn't just bands that are doing it - some authors are releasing E-books for free. Even ad-supported free 480p CR streams aren't that profitable in and of themselves, so you could argue that Anime is kind of included in that as well.

The rationale behind this seemingly crazy decision is that most people will just leech and never give back, but the small percentage of people who do pay will be enough for the content creator to make a profit. Three reasons. The costs of manufacturing the product in the first place was very low. Almost all profits go back to the band rather than middlemen. Finally, if something is free then a lot of people are going to consume it (far more than if it was thirty effing dollars), and a small percentage of a lot of people is still a sizeable number.
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dan9999



Joined: 25 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:25 pm Reply with quote
@Kikaioh

You are getting too much into the terminology really, its beyond the point because you understand well where this talk on monopoly comes from.

The monopoly refers NOT to the companies themselves and/or their products, it refers to COPYRIGHT, that IS the monopoly whole industries shares in order for them to be the only ones to shine, in order to prevent free competition.

If you go to google and search you will find why many refer to copyright as monopoly = copyright monopoly.
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Rukiia



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:31 pm Reply with quote
dan9999 wrote:
Thanks for answering with excuses Rukiia, thank you, thanks to this none has brought up again the threes no need to download anything anymore, the only for old shows, and you subtly changed your words to not everything is available...THANK YOU

Lol. Excuses? Oh you are adorable. Anime hyper And it is true that I did not say everything was available legally (because that is obviously true, duh) so I'm sorry that you are butthurt over it.

dan9999 wrote:
Now whats wrong with Gon and that only me mentions it? Arashi no Yory also good both getting attention form some group....

Because nobody wants/cares about the show? No demands for it = no interest = no legal streams. There isn't even a thread discussion for it here on the Anime page.

dan9999 wrote:
Toriko, I know pal, thanks for trying, see how I said RIGHT NOW--LEGALLY? I mentioned it so I could tell you: "Thank you for your interest. Unfortunately, this site is not available in your country. " Thanks for further proving that NOT EVERYTHING is available and the fallacy of the "no need to try "other methods" in this day and age".
You know....you never said what country you are from. That fault is on you, not me. You asked for a English legal site that streamed the series and I gave it to you. Cute of you to try and turn it around on me when I gave you what you asked for.

dan9999 wrote:
And for you answer to the others you come up with not popular so sorry and some "only you mention it" so sorry? Thanks for you answer and made it it even more clear. By your words should I wait patiently until its comes my way? Oh wait it will never......because you know, the world is not only NA, UK, AU...to get physical copies...oh wait you will come up with the weak then import perspective, sorry but many have already told this is not a viable option to many, if it is your you and have the means to do so congrats, not everyone has your own circumstances.
Dude, I am not answering for others. That fact that sports Anime isn't popular is true. Why do you think things like Prince of Tennis was dropped here and why Big WindUp didn't get its second season licensed?

And you know what...people really need to stop thinking that they have to watch Anime. That they are entitled to it. Hate to burst your bubble but when you want something you got to pay for it (unless it is provided to you for free legally). I wanted Kaiba on DVD so badly that I went and imported it from Australia. But anyway, you bore me dan9999 so this is my last reply to you. Have a nice day.
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