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NEWS: Japan's Law Penalizing Downloaders, Criminalizing Ripping Goes Into Effect


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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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Location: NZL

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:19 pm Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:
Chihayafuru is being made because it has a manga, that's why most anime is made, if the manga sells well than the anime continues to promote the manga.


I know. But Anime in general must be making enough money for their corporate masters for shows to continually be made. See below.

Charred Knight wrote:
Industry people have repeatly stated that they camt make anime like they did in the 80's and 90's anymore. Now everything depends on a comittee and that means that you have to either be based off of a well known property, appeal to Otaku, or simply have merchandise to the point of being a toy commercial.


Well duh. The bubble was clearly unsustainable and in fact popped in a big way. Companies were throwing heaps of cash at mediocre titles like Akira and they got burned. The 80s were not the glory days of Anime but simply an ill-conceived aberration.

Charred Knight wrote:
When the anime boom happened money flooded in and studios like Gonzo experimented with anime, and created some really original ideas. Now that money is nearly gone, and there's no interest in trying to go outside the box from executives.


There's plenty of money being spent by consumers. It just doesn't go straight to DVDs and Blu-Rays but to Manga or Light Novel sales as you mentioned before. The companies recognise that which is why recent years have been pretty good with the number of titles made.

Charred Knight wrote:
You mention that studios do wasteful marketing but social marketing doesnt have the reach that televisions give you.


Facebook has nine hundred million users. Then there's Twitter and the rest. More people own televisions than are on social media, true, but that's like saying T.V.s shouldn't have been used to advertise anything back in the 50s and 60s because more people owned radios. Besides, when appealing to the young generation, they are far, far more likely to listen to their friends than a television commercial or a billboard.

Charred Knight wrote:
You mention that people can make a ton of money on merchandising, but that will lead to stagnation as the only thing that could get made is stuff like Transformers or The Avengers.


Do you honestly think that Hollywood is not already merchandise-driven for its blockbuster films?

Charred Knight wrote:
You claim that "The other way" will create superior products but you haven't explained how. This is an anime forum I don't care about Linux, Windows or music I want to know your idea on how to improve anime.


You do realise that it isn't my job to come up with alternatives, right? You also do realise that I don't need to provide an example, because I wasn't even arguing about Anime in the first place but just copyright in general, right?

But here's one I came up with in five seconds:

Use a Kickstarter-type website to break the traditional production committee's grip over Anime, which results in less corporate intervention and gives the director more creative control.

I haven't worked out the particulars but like I said, that's not my job. The onus is not on me to improve Anime.

Besides, 2010 and 2011 have been the two best years for Anime ever in terms of quality. Although Anime needs to modernise the quality of titles has never been better.
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Rukiia



Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 1764
Location: British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:31 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
Rukiia wrote:
Because nobody wants/cares about the show? No demands for it = no interest = no legal streams. There isn't even a thread discussion for it here on the Anime page.


From what I can find, there's not a thread for One Piece either; and the Naruto thread barely anyone posts in. I guess those shows have no demand or need to be streamed either? Using a random forum to judge interest is a terrible idea. For the record, I'm aware of Gon too.

Either way, it's a bad justification to deny that piracy is the only way to watch the big chunk of shows that aren't streamed.

There actually was a thread for One Piece buried somewhere (I saw it back when I first joined) yet because shonen shows go on for hundreds of episodes nobody here seems to want to discuss them any further then 60+ episodes. Fairy Tail, Toriko, Detective Conan, and Bleach also had their threads die out before the shows even ended (or in some cases because they are still on-going). Sorry but your counter argument isn't good since those shows did have threads, unlike Gon. Sites like Crunchyroll mostly look to see what people are interested in when deciding to pick up new shows for streaming. Until now, I have not seen anyone mention wanting to see Gon be streamed and that show has been out in Japan for months.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4035

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:00 pm Reply with quote
Rukiia wrote:
There actually was a thread for One Piece buried somewhere (I saw it back when I first joined) yet because shonen shows go on for hundreds of episodes nobody here seems to want to discuss them. Fairy Tail, Toriko, Detective Conan, and Bleach also had their threads die out before the shows even ended (or in some cases because they are still on-going with over 60 episodes). Sorry but your counter argument isn't good since those shows did have threads, unlike Gon. Sites like Crunchyroll mostly look to see what people are interested in when deciding to pick up new shows for streaming. Until now, I have not seen anyone mention wanting to see Gon be streamed and that show has been out in Japan for months.


You're still operating on the fallacy that these forums are the sole indicator of popularity or things deserving to be watched/streamed.

I don't mention Gon, Precure, Detective Conan, or all the other stuff here because I know people here only care about certain types of mainstream shows. I go elsewhere for discussion of those shows. I did make one thread one time, but it only got a page or two of replies, so I knew this site wasn't the best place to discuss that show and went elsewhere which had much bigger communities dedicated to it. I imagine most people do as well. Each site has it's own community with different tastes and likes. The top selling smash hit show of last season only got a measly 3 pages of discussion.. and half of those posts were by the same guy from what I saw.

Not like you see threads for every show that is streamed here anyway. Tons of shows that do get streamed are never talked about here, so what does that mean? They should stop being streamed or something? Heck, if you go by that logic Precure should be streamed because there's multiple threads up on various 4chan boards all the time, and 4chan is a much more active community with their posts than ANN is.
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Rukiia



Joined: 30 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:13 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
Rukiia wrote:
There actually was a thread for One Piece buried somewhere (I saw it back when I first joined) yet because shonen shows go on for hundreds of episodes nobody here seems to want to discuss them. Fairy Tail, Toriko, Detective Conan, and Bleach also had their threads die out before the shows even ended (or in some cases because they are still on-going with over 60 episodes). Sorry but your counter argument isn't good since those shows did have threads, unlike Gon. Sites like Crunchyroll mostly look to see what people are interested in when deciding to pick up new shows for streaming. Until now, I have not seen anyone mention wanting to see Gon be streamed and that show has been out in Japan for months.


You're still operating on the fallacy that these forums are the sole indicator of popularity or things deserving to be watched/streamed.


Well, ya, because where else do companies look to see what could possibly sell/do well on streams? They look to see what people are interested in. People were begging companies and constantly bringing up things like Penguindrum and look what happened, Sentai had the license all along and we are now getting a dub/BD this coming December. And Bakemonogatari finally got licensed/put on Crunchyroll due to high demand. Since ANN is the number #1 news source website my guess is that streaming sites would look here to see what people are interested in. I should also mention that the other shows dan9999 listed, like that sports one, are again barely mentioned (yet I can see Kamisama Hajimemashita getting picked up anytime now) or are already on a legal site (Toriko).

TitanXL wrote:
Tons of shows that do get streamed are never talked about here, so what does that mean?

Are you talking about new shows or older shows (like Bakemonogatari) that got picked up for streams? I would like an example, please? I have been seeing quite the opposite for the new shows.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3023

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:49 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:

Charred Knight wrote:
You claim that "The other way" will create superior products but you haven't explained how. This is an anime forum I don't care about Linux, Windows or music I want to know your idea on how to improve anime.


You do realise that it isn't my job to come up with alternatives, right? You also do realise that I don't need to provide an example, because I wasn't even arguing about Anime in the first place but just copyright in general, right?

But here's one I came up with in five seconds:

Use a Kickstarter-type website to break the traditional production committee's grip over Anime, which results in less corporate intervention and gives the director more creative control.

I haven't worked out the particulars but like I said, that's not my job. The onus is not on me to improve Anime.

Besides, 2010 and 2011 have been the two best years for Anime ever in terms of quality. Although Anime needs to modernise the quality of titles has never been better.

Then stop complaining about how the entertainment industry has not found "The Other Way" when you admit that you don't know the way either.

Kickstarter in terms of fairly mainstream games with very famous game developers generally make 2 million-3 million dollars. There have been two hardware that got over 5 million dollars. a fairly low budget 13 episode tv series would cost about 4 million dollars. Production IG is trying to finance a 10 minute anime, Kickstarter doesnt have the ability right now to finance anything really greater than 10 minutes because tens of thousands of people are not going to spend 100 dollars for even an episode length anime with a decent budget.
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dtm42



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:40 pm Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:
Then stop complaining about how the entertainment industry has not found "The Other Way" when you admit that you don't know the way either.


Hey look everybody, here's a guy who thinks that just because I haven't been able to find a brand new workable business model for Anime that means we can't expect major corporations to do so either.

Jeez, next thing I know you'll start blaming me for not knowing how to fix the world economy and befriend North Korea and stop the civil war in Syria.

It's not my job to come up with solutions to major problems. How many times do I have to say it before you'll actually listen?

Charred Knight wrote:
Kickstarter in terms of fairly mainstream games with very famous game developers generally make 2 million-3 million dollars. There have been two hardware that got over 5 million dollars. a fairly low budget 13 episode tv series would cost about 4 million dollars. Production IG is trying to finance a 10 minute anime, Kickstarter doesnt have the ability right now to finance anything really greater than 10 minutes because tens of thousands of people are not going to spend 100 dollars for even an episode length anime with a decent budget.


Three million dollars is all you need to make an average one-cour Anime. Also, not all of the money needs to come from Kickstarter.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:53 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Charred Knight wrote:
Then stop complaining about how the entertainment industry has not found "The Other Way" when you admit that you don't know the way either.


Hey look everybody, here's a guy who thinks that just because I haven't been able to find a brand new workable business model for Anime that means we can't expect major corporations to do so either.

Jeez, next thing I know you'll start blaming me for not knowing how to fix the world economy and befriend North Korea and stop the civil war in Syria.

It's not my job to come up with solutions to major problems. How many times do I have to say it before you'll actually listen?

Charred Knight wrote:
Kickstarter in terms of fairly mainstream games with very famous game developers generally make 2 million-3 million dollars. There have been two hardware that got over 5 million dollars. a fairly low budget 13 episode tv series would cost about 4 million dollars. Production IG is trying to finance a 10 minute anime, Kickstarter doesnt have the ability right now to finance anything really greater than 10 minutes because tens of thousands of people are not going to spend 100 dollars for even an episode length anime with a decent budget.


Three million dollars is all you need to make an average one-cour Anime. Also, not all of the money needs to come from Kickstarter.


Do I blame you for not knowing how to fix the world's problems? No, but here's the thing I also don't blame anyone for not fixing this recession immediately. The government is a mess and you just can't blame one person.

You are placing irrational expectations on people and then yelling at them when they don't meet your ridiculous goals of finding another way to make money that's allows for large budgets while also being cheap for the consumer.
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dtm42



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:14 pm Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:
Do I blame you for not knowing how to fix the world's problems?


But you were telling me to stop complaining unless I could pose a viable alternative, which is a BS defence.

Charred Knight wrote:
You are placing irrational expectations on people and then yelling at them when they don't meet your ridiculous goals of finding another way to make money that's allows for large budgets while also being cheap for the consumer.


There are ways to cut costs in Anime while still delivering the same product. Even I can think of a few. Fact is, expecting companies to get with the times is not irrational, nor is it impossible for them to do so.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3023

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:07 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Charred Knight wrote:
Do I blame you for not knowing how to fix the world's problems?


But you were telling me to stop complaining unless I could pose a viable alternative, which is a BS defence.

Charred Knight wrote:
You are placing irrational expectations on people and then yelling at them when they don't meet your ridiculous goals of finding another way to make money that's allows for large budgets while also being cheap for the consumer.


There are ways to cut costs in Anime while still delivering the same product. Even I can think of a few. Fact is, expecting companies to get with the times is not irrational, nor is it impossible for them to do so.


Since you know so much about making anime, why not tell me what ways there are to cut cost without harming the product.
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dtm42



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:25 am Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:
Since you know so much about making anime, why not tell me what ways there are to cut cost without harming the product.


An industry-supported website like CrunchyRoll but Japanese-owned and run. Anime would no longer air on T.V. and fans would watch the latest episodes on the website instead. Currently almost every production committee of late-night shows has to rent an infomercial timeslot in order to broadcast. However, with a streaming website it would mean that they would no longer have to pay for timeslots; they'd just have to invest in operating the website instead. It requires a moderate investment to get the thing up and running, but once done it will save the industry a little bit of money while making things much easier for fans. Of course, the streams would be free, as currently Anime on television is free (unless you are watching AT-X).
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:59 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Charred Knight wrote:
Since you know so much about making anime, why not tell me what ways there are to cut cost without harming the product.


An industry-supported website like CrunchyRoll but Japanese-owned and run. Anime would no longer air on T.V. and fans would watch the latest episodes on the website instead. Currently almost every production committee of late-night shows has to rent an infomercial timeslot in order to broadcast. However, with a streaming website it would mean that they would no longer have to pay for timeslots; they'd just have to invest in operating the website instead. It requires a moderate investment to get the thing up and running, but once done it will save the industry a little bit of money while making things much easier for fans. Of course, the streams would be free, as currently Anime on television is free (unless you are watching AT-X).


You barely saved any money that way, and streaming is nowhere as prevalent as you think it is. You would still depend nearly entirely on DVD/BR sales because thats where the money comes from for late night anime.
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dtm42



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:13 am Reply with quote
*Shrugs*

Yeah, so? Money could be saved in the long-run and having fans all flocking to a single website would bring with it a whole host of associated benefits. There would still be DVD and Blu-Ray sales, but if consumers are willing they would be phased out for user-pays high-quality streams or downloads (depends on the DRM situation).

I'm just throwing out an idea, not making a sales pitch.
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Polycell
Thread KillerThread Killer


Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 3353

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:03 am Reply with quote
Kikaioh wrote:
Polycell wrote:
I swear; I keep trying to get out and this guy keeps pulling me back in.

LOL Laughing if you want out, all you have to do is stop responding, no one is forcing you back into the discussion (except yourself Wink).
My inner semantic Nazi won't let me, though it's becoming pretty damn clear you're more interested in playing games than debating, I shall make one last reply just to see how you wriggle your way outside of utter wrongness.
Quote:
Isn't Burger King the sole legal provider of their brand of Whoppers? Or Lenovo of their brand of ThinkPads? Your definition of monopoly is so broad as to imply that everything that's for sale is a monopoly, including private physical property.
I've never taken a firm position on trademarks for individual products, as long as they match close enough(eg, we're not dealing with selling a pig and delivering an angry badger). The brand name itself indicates the product was made by a certain person or company(or their authorized agents); I can't cook something up in my kitchen and claim it's McDonald's because it's fraudulent. It's exactly the same as selling cubic zirconium as diamonds.
Quote:
Your definition of monopoly is so broad as to imply that everything that's for sale is a monopoly, including private physical property. Why do you think the modern definition is market-based and deals with commodities?
And once more, the definition I'm using is a state-granted privilege, the historical definition. It's an extramarket phenomenon, a point you seem deadset on ignoring, since admitting it would bring down your house of cards.
Quote:
Conflating...? I'm talking about differentiated products available in a given market. What makes you think the usage of "monopoly" is dependent on whether a good is trademarked or copyrighted? "Monopoly" is supposed to describe whether a business holds singular control over a commodity market --- I'm not aware as to how being trademarked vs. copyrighted changes the use of the word.

Or thinking it another way: Maytag has a state-granted privilege to be the sole legal provider of JetStream dishwashers on the market. So by your own definition, isn't Maytag's line of JetStream dishwashers a monopoly?
Trademarks carry far more weight behind them than "nobody else can use this name for this sort of good or service" - they include implications about who made something and what it is. Me selling cheap knockoffs as Maytag JetStreams is fraudulent; me printing an unauthorized run of a work isn't so long as I don't present myself as having said authorization.

I should probably take this opportunity to make something a little more explicit: fraud, that is, selling somebody one thing while pretending it's another, is merely a form of theft.
Quote:
From my understanding, monopoly was originally used by Aristotle to describe a merchant who had cornered the market on olive presses. Laughing The definition I'm using is certainly the more common mainstream usage, and well-adopted by modern economists (not just the antitrust folks you've referred to). As I've said before, if you want to use monopoly in the sense of exclusive possession, that's fine --- but I'm against conflating it with the modern economic sense of monopoly, as it's misleading and only obfuscates the discussion.
And once more your need to play semantic games leads you to baldly ignore the point. "Exclusive possession" isn't even remotely a monopoly by any sense of the term. Again, I'm referring to the extramarket legal prohibitions on competition.
Quote:
I have rebutted your proposition already, but maybe you're not familiar with some of the esoteric wording I've used. I've mentioned before that "Monopoly" isn't used in the market sense to describe singular control over 'unique products' --- it's used to describe singular control over 'commodities'. Economists actually make a distinction between differentiated products and commodities (both are different types of products).
No, you haven't. The proposition is "different creative works are not the same 'good'"(that would be different editions of the same work). Your "rebuttal" is little more than a random statement with the opposite of my position smuggled in as part of your constant attempts to imply I'm wrong via rejecting the traditional definition of "monopoly".
Quote:
Voting isn't a right? I guess the 15th, 19th and 26th amendments ought to be reworded then, huh? Laughing
I'm sorry, do you have a point? All I see is more word games and an abject refusal to actually analyze the situation.
Quote:
In any case, you still haven't addressed how a person still has the "right to vote/bear arms/petition" after they've passed away, or how those rights pass on to their estate.
Again, whatever it may be called, the "right" to vote is merely the state privileging its subjects to choose its personnel; removing the state(or the electable positions) and the "right" evaporates like a fart in the wind.

The "right to bear arms" is merely a special case of the right to property and it's pretty patent that your right to your property is given to your heirs, though the word "title" is usually used.


***


All that said, I'm done playing your word games. Come back when you've got actual arguments to combat my positions, instead of how they're phrased.
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Kikaioh
Space CowboySpace Cowboy


Joined: 01 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:22 pm Reply with quote
Polycell wrote:
My inner semantic Nazi won't let me, though it's becoming pretty damn clear you're more interested in playing games than debating, I shall make one last reply just to see how you wriggle your way outside of utter wrongness.


Well, at least you admit you're the only one keeping yourself in this discussion. I at least appreciate no longer being blamed for your semantic Naziism. Laughing

Polycell wrote:
I've never taken a firm position on trademarks for individual products, as long as they match close enough(eg, we're not dealing with selling a pig and delivering an angry badger). The brand name itself indicates the product was made by a certain person or company(or their authorized agents); I can't cook something up in my kitchen and claim it's McDonald's because it's fraudulent. It's exactly the same as selling cubic zirconium as diamonds.

Polycell wrote:
Trademarks carry far more weight behind them than "nobody else can use this name for this sort of good or service" - they include implications about who made something and what it is. Me selling cheap knockoffs as Maytag JetStreams is fraudulent; me printing an unauthorized run of a work isn't so long as I don't present myself as having said authorization.

Polycell wrote:
I should probably take this opportunity to make something a little more explicit: fraud, that is, selling somebody one thing while pretending it's another, is merely a form of theft.


Well now, who's wriggling his way out of utter wrongness here then? Do you or don't you admit that by your own definition trademarked products are also monopolies? You keep dodging the point, trying to focus on fraudulence when that's completely besides the point of whether you would describe a company's state-granted ability to be the sole provider of a specific product as a monopoly. Either you believe all trademarked products are monopolies, or you don't --- it's a simple question, and would be very telling to know that you consider practically every product on the market to be a monopoly.

Quote:
And once more, the definition I'm using is a state-granted privilege, the historical definition. It's an extramarket phenomenon, a point you seem deadset on ignoring, since admitting it would bring down your house of cards.


And once more, I have nothing against your usage of the definition in this discussion, so long as you're not conflating it with the more common economic sense (i.e. economic monopoly of the markets). My concern is if you're attempting to carry the stigma of market monopolies into the discussion, when there's clearly no entity that has singular market dominance of any media commodity. If you're not doing that, I have no problem --- if you are, then I do have a problem, because calling copyright an economic monopoly in that sense implies that any differentiated product on the market is also an economic monopoly, which only obfuscates the discussion and makes the usage of the term superfluous.

Polycell wrote:
No, you haven't. The proposition is "different creative works are not the same 'good'"(that would be different editions of the same work). Your "rebuttal" is little more than a random statement with the opposite of my position smuggled in as part of your constant attempts to imply I'm wrong via rejecting the traditional definition of "monopoly".


Random...? Maybe you're just not understanding my point. Economic monopolies are held over general goods, not differentiated products --- you can have an economic monopoly on the book market, the dvd market, or the dishwasher market --- but not on Gintama, Jurassic Park, or Maytag JetStream Dishwashers.

Polycell wrote:
I'm sorry, do you have a point? All I see is more word games and an abject refusal to actually analyze the situation. Again, whatever it may be called, the "right" to vote is merely the state privileging its subjects to choose its personnel; removing the state(or the electable positions) and the "right" evaporates like a fart in the wind. The "right to bear arms" is merely a special case of the right to property and it's pretty patent that your right to your property is given to your heirs, though the word "title" is usually used.


My point is that you specifically stated rights never expire, and are passed down to a person's estate when they die. But clearly not all rights last past your death --- you don't still have the right to vote when you die, and it clearly doesn't "pass on" to your children.

Don't forget that you were the one to ask "what kind of rights expire?" It doesn't make sense for you to argue that the right to vote is nothing more than a "state-granted privilege", because copyright itself is also a state-granted privilege. By extension, you would be undermining your original point --- I could simply reason that (by your own logic) copyright isn't really a right, thereby rendering your initial question moot.

In any case, you're dancing around the point, and for someone who dislikes semantic word games it's amusing to see you're not shy to play them here.

Polycell wrote:
Again. All that said, I'm done playing your word games. Come back when you've got actual arguments to combat my positions, instead of how they're phrased.


AHAHAHA! Laughing It sounds as though I've hit a nerve, eh? Wink TBH, I've always found authoritative stances like this amusing --- "come back when you've got actual arguments." Good show, bark out those commands, Polycell! Surprised In any case, if you prefer to leave things be then I'm more than willing to accommodate --- like the flip side of a coin, I also feel like I"m "done playing your word games". Laughing
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