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Bonham



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 303
Location: Columbus, OH

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:11 pm Reply with quote
Maidenoftheredhand wrote:
I consider myself a film buff and I don't know all of them. I admit the only one that we haven't talked about before I know is Alain Renais. Although my personal interest in film (Hollywood & foreign) skews a bit older.

I am a bit surprised that you haven't heard of Chris Marker (part of the Left Bank with Alain Resnais, Agnes Varda, etc.). The rest are from the past 50 years, although I love anything from any country and era.

Quote:
I took the time to watch a lot of film when I was unemployed but now I am working and going to school full time, so needless to say I have less time for it.

Understandable. I'm a film studies major, so I have an excuse to watch this stuff. :p

Quote:
So you would say the renaissance for anime took place mostly in the 90's. I'd actually agree with this, even though I actually prefer a lot of anime from the early 2000's, today and even the 70's-80's over the 90's (with exceptions of course).

I'd certainly say it was a gradual change over time, probably peaking roughly in the '90s and even in the '00s. Of course, one could argue that there are less radical anime that represent a renaissance in some way (Night on the Galactic Railroad*, Ghibli films, The Wings of Honneamise*, Bebop and Champloo, Mononoke*, Mouryou no Hako, Mushi-shi, Madoka Magica, etc.) in presenting a certain sophistication in narrative and filmmaking techniques. Hell, wasn't Macross: Do You Remember Love? remarkable for the sheer amount of effort put in the production values, whereas a lot of anime films at the time were merely recaps of their television series?

*These could be argued to be in a similar vein as other "new wave" works, I guess, and probably others I'm neglecting. I'm only one guy, after all.
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Maidenoftheredhand



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 1796

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:24 pm Reply with quote
Bonham wrote:

I am a bit surprised that you haven't heard of Chris Marker (part of the Left Bank with Alain Resnais, Agnes Varda, etc.). The rest are from the past 50 years, although I love anything from any country and era.


Actually my mistake I am familiar with Chris Maker, although I was not familiar with his name. However I have seen and I am very fond of La Jetee. I don't think I have seen any of his other works though. But excuse any of my film ignorance bc what I do know was self taught.

My interest kind of skews from the silent era to the 1960's (maybe some 1970's). There are definitely individual films/directors I have an interest in later than that, but as far as film periods go I guess I do love the older stuff more.


As for stuff like Mushishi and Mononoke (two of my favorite titles) I am not really sure if I would count them. They are artistic for sure but I don't see them having an impact on anime at large.

Madoka is a possibility though. I think Madoka will have an impact on anime but whether that is just in a commercial sense or in an artistic sense remains to be seen.
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eyeresist



Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 978
Location: a 320x240 resolution igloo (Sydney)

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:47 pm Reply with quote
mike.motaku wrote:
You know you're an elitist when you claim NO ONE actually watches anime (or anything else, for that matter) on TV anymore.


Watching TV is, like, SO four years ago Very Happy

Neon Alley is a TV channel = Neon Alley is a TV channel. Is that fact so hateful? Anyway, I worry that if we only watch what we intend to watch, we'll end up missing some good stuff.

Elitism - I don't think it's necessarily elitist to accuse a show of pandering to otakus. I've made that accusation myself, and at least by civilian standards I certainly AM an otaku! In case it's still unclear, what we mean by "pandering" is cynical recycling of characteristics and tropes as a substitute for character and story. But it is possible for a show to be otaku-bait and still actually quite good.

Harem shows - all else being equal, I'd rather watch a harem than a magical girl or guys-punching-each-others-heads-off show. But I'd also rather watch a good show than a bad show. Anyway, so many shows contain harem elements these days that it's possible to get a harem fix without ever venturing into the genre proper.

Anyway, if we all ignore dtm42, we'll all be a lot happier.
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rojse



Joined: 08 Sep 2010
Posts: 233

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:10 am Reply with quote
Reading through this thread, I wish more people would try to make some differentiation between shows they like and don't like, and shows are "good" and "bad", from an objective sense.

For the example that everyone seems to be arguing over, "Infinite Stratos" (I watched the first two episodes, didn't like it, and gave it a 4 out of 10) it's hard to argue that it is a "good" show. The plot of the show at that time (only girls can pilot robots, except for this one guy) is no more than a handwave of a plot to hang a harem show around. In the episodes I watched, none of the characters are developed beyond a few basic tropes, such as the aloof perfectionist, the female tsundere, or the shy girl. I did appreciate the high-quality animation and the detailed artwork, particularly with the mecha battles, but it's hardly enough reason to continue with the show.

However, if you said that you enjoyed "Infinite Stratos", I'd have no issue with that - there are plenty of shows of dubious merit that I'll admit I enjoyed watching, it's just that this one doesn't quite match my tastes in giant robot anime.
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RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 4210
Location: Towson, Maryland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:13 am Reply with quote
rojse wrote:
Reading through this thread, I wish more people would try to make some differentiation between shows they like and don't like, and shows are "good" and "bad", from an objective sense.

For the example that everyone seems to be arguing over, "Infinite Stratos" (I watched the first two episodes, didn't like it, and gave it a 4 out of 10) it's hard to argue that it is a "good" show. The plot of the show at that time (only girls can pilot robots, except for this one guy) is no more than a handwave of a plot to hang a harem show around. In the episodes I watched, none of the characters are developed beyond a few basic tropes, such as the aloof perfectionist, the female tsundere, or the shy girl. I did appreciate the high-quality animation and the detailed artwork, particularly with the mecha battles, but it's hardly enough reason to continue with the show.

However, if you said that you enjoyed "Infinite Stratos", I'd have no issue with that - there are plenty of shows of dubious merit that I'll admit I enjoyed watching, it's just that this one doesn't quite match my tastes in giant robot anime.


And this is exactly what people talk about when they mean "Elitists". Just because you think a show isn't good doesn't mean its not good as a fact. People like different things and value different parts of a show. What is good to one person may be bad to another. The technical issues are the only thing that can really be proven as good or bad, since something that is well animated isn't really an opinion.


Last edited by RyanSaotome on Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 6057
Location: Windsor Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:18 am Reply with quote
rojse wrote:
In the episodes I watched, none of the characters are developed beyond a few basic tropes, such as the aloof perfectionist, the female tsundere, or the shy girl.


Well of course, you only saw two episodes Laughing

And no, Ichika being the only dude who can use the IS is not a handwave. It's a major mystery that persists throughout the series and makes him the target for various interested parties.
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Maigraith



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:57 am Reply with quote
RyanSaotome wrote:

And this is exactly what people talk about when they mean "Elitists". Just because you don't think a show isn't good doesn't mean its not good as a fact. People like different things and value different parts of a show. What is good to one person may be bad to another.


Woo, way to tie it back to the beginning. Personally, I don't really care whether other people think what I watch is good or bad(I liked Fractale quite a bit). I watch anime for the entertainment value so if I enjoy it I keep watching if I don't I drop it. That doesn't make the show good or bad just means it wasn't my thing.

In regards to Neon Alley, I don't have a PS3 so...that won't be happening for me. It's an interesting idea, but having the TV schedule could either be good or bad. If it lined up with my schedule it'd be great, like when I used to get the basic channels and the simpsons and family guy showed every afternoon around 5~6pm that fit perfectly with my schedule. I was always home from class by that point, would eat dinner and watch those shows. However, all of that is a big if
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Mad_Scientist



Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 2321

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:05 am Reply with quote
I do think that people should differentiate between shows that are objectively good, and guilty pleasures that they like even though they aren't that great (or are even outright bad). For example, I really like Bleach, and while I feel that parts of the show are actually very well done, objectively good even, I feel that many, many, MANY parts... aren't well done, to put it mildly. I think overall it's a bit of a mess. I still love it.

But a series like Madoka Magica, that is a series that I absolutely love and I feel is objectively great as well. It's not just a series "that I like", it's a genuine masterpiece. But, here's the thing. There are some who feel differently, and who view Madoka as an overrated piece of crap. And if someone with that view were to tell me that I just need to accept the truth that Madoka is junk and admit that I like it anyways, and that I'm an idiot for denying the truth, well, I'd be a bit annoyed. I'd probably say some unkind things to such a person, within the limits of what this forum allows and what I feel is in good taste.

So I can understand where people like Vaisaga are coming from. I only saw one episode of Infinite Stratos, and it seemed horribly boring and uninteresting to me. Can't really judge the series properly from just one episode of course, but let's say for the sake of argument that I had seen the whole series and still felt it was crap. Well, Vaisaga honestly thinks the series is not crap. I'd try to argue against that, convince him of what I felt were flaws in the writing or whatever, but I would not do so from a condescending "you're just an idiot in denial who doesn't want to admit he likes crap" viewpoint.

I think too many people fall into one of two groups when it comes to views on anime quality. There is the "everything is subjective" group, who argues that literally everything comes down to personal preference, and that there is no such thing as a good or bad show. I disagree with this. I think that personal preference does play a big role, but I don't think that literally everything is subjective, and I believe there is such a thing as a good or bad anime. As I said earlier, I believe that Madoka Magica is actually a great show, not just a show I like. So I can't agree with the view that everything is subjective.

The other group many fall into is the "objective standards exist... and I am the arbiter who determines what is objectively good or bad" group. Oh, most people in this camp won't come out and say this, but that is what they actually believe. These people are incredibly frustrating to deal with. It's hard to argue with someone when you're coming from the perspective of "this is why I think the show is actually good" and they are coming from the perspective of "this is why I think you are blind to the obvious fact that this show is total crap, stop lying to yourself."

Just because objective truths exist doesn't mean they are easy to recognize, or that any one person is going to be able to perfectly recognize all of them. Just look at science. Scientists have disagreed with each other about various things throughout history, and will continue to do so in the future. Ultimately, given enough time and enough research and experiments, scientists come to learn what is (probably) the truth, but unfortunately there are no experiments we can devise to prove that the writing in Madoka is good or that the writing in Infinite Stratos is bad.

To sum it up: I believe objectively good and bad shows exist, and will argue my viewpoints on such shows. But I will do so in a non insulting manner, acknowledging that there is always at least the slight possibility that I am the one in error, and just because someone isn't seeing what I feel is clearly good/bad writing doesn't mean he is in denial or an idiot.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 10467

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:28 am Reply with quote
Ah, when most anime discussions were all in the same newsgroup, so everybody could interact............... But now, everything is splintered, and people just go to sites that already share their tastes. Then again, when Naruto and Bleach first started, everybody was talking about those in all the sites. Laughing

Anyways, the best anything based on subjectivity can do is a consensus. It's kinda like going into a sports Hall Of Fame: is a player "in the bubble" HOF quality or not? All of his or her statistical facts are there bare for everybody to see and scrutinize - so why is the player "in the bubble" then? Why the uncertainty? Because, despite all those indisputable facts, for that "bubble" player to be considered HOF quality, enough voters would have to vote for him or her in. I.e. a consensus. Then and only then he or she is, in fact, a HOFer.

And Brian, everybody knows the best debate this season won't come from Romney nor Obama nor Ryan nor Biden but rather occurred from Jon Stewart and Bill O'Reilly debating each other! Laughing

http://www.usatoday.com/​story/​life/​tv/​2012/​10/​06/​jon-​stewart-​oreilly-​rumble/​1617481/​

http://www.washingtonpost.com/​politics/​decision2012/​jon-​stewart-​bill-​oreilly-​rumble-​and-​zingers-​fly/​2012/​10/​06/​61a347c8-​0f0c-​11e2-​a310-​2363842b7057_story.​html

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animefan425



Joined: 01 Feb 2012
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:52 am Reply with quote
Brian Hanson wrote:
A lot of the time, I feel like - and this goes back to what I've been saying over the past few weeks - that I'm attacking them for their particular tastes and inclinations in entertainment, which isn't true.
You don't actually "hate" harem anime? Well, I do. I think it's unfunny, stupid, pandering junk, created cynically by people who either don't care or have no imagination.

So, in your opinion, to say that harem anime fans like "unfunny, stupid, pandering junk created cynically by people who either don't care or have no imagination" is not attacking their tastes? Wow, I really would like to see what would you say to them if you were intending to attack their particular tastes and inclinations in entertainment.

Brian Hanson wrote:
Here's the other thing; like most of the internet, the people that like harem anime shows tend to stick together, where they're comfortable, in order to discuss it with each other. They're polite.

You mean, that unlike you, they don't go saying that any genre they don't like is "unfunny, stupid, pandering junk, created cynically by people who either don't care or have no imagination" like you do? Well, at least you are honest.

Quote:
Dear Answerman, a question has been boiling in the back of my mind for a while and recent columns have brought it to the front of my thoughts. Namely, where are all the harem fans? I hear people mocking the harem/fan-service genre all the time, but I never hear someone step forward to defend it. There seems to be a ton of people who vocally loathe harem shows and their terrible jokes and repetitive plots, but nobody seems willing to stand up and say “You know what I absolutely love, derivative fan-service harem anime. That's right, there's nothing I enjoy more than watching boring-as-a-tree-stump-male-lead get punched out by tiny-fiery-tsundere-girl for walking in on her while she was in a state of undress. Because domestic abuse is funny.”

Ah...why would any harem/fanservice anime fan post here, fully knowing that they would be mocked and insulted for their tastes? One thing is if one or two members do that, but when you see that even columnists and reviewers are proud in their hating, why would any harem/fanservice fan post in this forum? Just to make a fool of themselves and be humiliated publicly? When you see that kind of thing, it's obvious that ANN itself endorses the mockery of the harem/fan-service genre. In the past, there used to be many people who liked harem/fanservice anime and freely discussed it in ANN's forums, but since ANN's crusade of hate against the genre, they left long ago. A shame really, because ANN used to be a really good place to discuss ANY genre of anime without being mocked or insulted. But sadly, those times are long gone...
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st_owly
Get off my lawn!Get off my lawn!


Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 3457
Location: Edinburgh, UK

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:12 am Reply with quote
At least 95% of anime, possibly more, is primarily made to make a profit either from people buying it on DVD or Bluray, or to sell more manga/novels/toys/whatever, not for the joy and the love of anime. The market creates what the demand wants, so because JAPANESE OTAKU (anime is not made for the Western market, something which people often seem to forget) want generic moeblob reverse gender Sengoku era light novel based harems each season that is what they (and by extension we) get. If more Japanese otaku suddenly started demanding quality plots, decent artwork and character development in their anime, then the industry would have to produce those in order to survive. So, yes in a way, fanservice anime could be described as "unfunny, stupid, pandering junk, created cynically by people who either don't care or have no imagination." but that is because people want it and will buy it. It's created to fit the demand that exists for it. That doesn't mean people can't enjoy it though. Mad Men, Boardwalk Empire and Game of Thrones were all made to make a profit, not for the joy of entertaining people. All HBO shows have a similar kind of feel to them and they attract people who enjoy that type of entertainment, just as fanservice anime attracts a different kind of person.
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Polycell
Thread KillerThread Killer


Joined: 16 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:36 am Reply with quote
st_owly wrote:
moeblob reverse gender Sengoku era light novel based harems
Quote:
quality plots, decent artwork and character development
Now I want to see a show involving Nobunaga-chan and friends using a bridge between the modern world and theirs to fund/supply their war machines. The economics of the situation could get quite interesting.
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st_owly
Get off my lawn!Get off my lawn!


Joined: 20 May 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:37 am Reply with quote
I'm gonna make that show. I'll be a millionaire before you know it Laughing
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4035

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:23 am Reply with quote
st_owly wrote:
At least 95% of anime, possibly more, is primarily made to make a profit either from people buying it on DVD or Bluray, or to sell more manga/novels/toys/whatever, not for the joy and the love of anime.


You act like it's impossible to do both at the same time.

st_owly wrote:
so because JAPANESE OTAKU (anime is not made for the Western market, something which people often seem to forget) want generic moeblob reverse gender Sengoku era light novel based harems each season that is what they (and by extension we) get. If more Japanese otaku suddenly started demanding quality plots, decent artwork and character development in their anime, then the industry would have to produce those in order to survive.


Well that's one big sweeping generalization if I ever saw one. You act as if those shows can't possible have 'quality plots' or 'character development' or 'decent artwork' (odd to say, since fanservice anime should live and die by it's artwork you would think).

Also I don't think someone who apparently likes Tonari no Kaibutsu-kun should be making those claims. So long as we're generalizaing, one can easily dismiss that as 'fujoshi pandering, backwards thinking shoujo'. If more fujoshi demanded more quality shoujo series, then the industry could give those to us instead of these shows that glorify rape and abusing women. So long as we're being fair in our judgements.
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st_owly
Get off my lawn!Get off my lawn!


Joined: 20 May 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:35 am Reply with quote
I said "primarily made" to make money, not exclusively. There is a difference. And yes, fujoshi shows pander just as much as booby shows, just to a different audience. This discussion just happens to have started out about booby fanservice. They're just different types of fanservice. There probably are fanservice shows (of all kinds) with good plots etc, just they get lost in amongst all the generic stuff which makes up most of the genre.
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