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Hey, Answerman! - Box Office Mojo-ka Magica


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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 13224
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:48 am Reply with quote
stardf29 wrote:
Interesting that "reverse harems", a.k.a. girl-surrounded-by-lots-of-guys, doesn't come up a lot in criticisms of harem anime, compared to the standard guy-surrounded-by-girls scenario. I guess they would use some different tropes due to the different genders and the fact that they tend to be shoujo/josei, but they are still "harems"...


The main reason is because you don't see them very often. Male centric harems are pretty wide spread and at the forefront, so they make easier targets.

Also, no one has problems objectifying men. Because sexism only affects females, apparently Rolling Eyes
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3717
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:53 am Reply with quote
Quote:
You don't actually "hate" harem anime? Well, I do. I think it's unfunny, stupid, pandering junk, created cynically by people who either don't care or have no imagination. But the hatred ends there. It starts and stops at the product itself. There's no point in having your opinion of a show bleed into the real world, or even the internet world. There's a popular word for people who do that - I think the word is "troll." I'm not a troll.

I think it is pretty trollish since the hate does in fact extend to people in real life: the creators. He's dead wrong about that assertion.

When the otaku artist wants to make a story about T&A even when he's poor, even in doujinshi form, even when he has a lot of competition, likewise anime director or writer, he's not doing it because he dislikes it but is forced to for money--most the genre in manga or anime form simply are poor sellers (most artists just scrape by)--but he does it because he wants to! I'm sure Ken Akamatsu and many others would disagree with Answerman's assertion.

The same goes for the fujoshi artist. Is he saying none of these creators actually wants to portray the relationship in that manner? It's ridiculous to think assert that most of these women who create reverse harems, otome games, or create bishounen characters, BL, actually dislike them but do them anyways just to make money.

Again, that would also deny the doujinshi material out there or when mainstream creators also publish independent works.

Look at the mangaka for ToLoveRu and the transition to Jump Square and ToLoveRuDarkness, where he really got to open up. Look at Mari Okada--the writer, creator of Ano Hana--original intentions and story:
Quote:
Okada explained that the AnoHana anime depicted friends' awkward youthful sexual attractions to each other during the story's first planning stage. The writer imagined balancing the slapstick erotic aspect with a deeper tone focusing on the flow of time through childhood. As Okada explained, it was later in the drama's development that the ghost and supernatural themes appeared.


This is why the "pandering" charge 99% of the time is totally false. In order to actually determine pandering, you need to be able to determine the intentions of the person. Pandering comes about only when actions or speech do not genuinely reflect intentions or opinions. The classic case are politicians who pander for votes. But guess what? A genuinely religious politician who appeals to his religious constituents and gets their votes that way is by definition NOT pandering!

In fact in Okada's case, we can ironically qualify that as a case of actual pandering to the mainstream, or "reverse pandering" perhaps:
Quote:
The AnoHana writer said her emotions were shaken after learning much of the story had to be changed in order for the anime's proposal to be accepted.


It is much more likely to be the case where creators are filtered, edited, told to remove elements or almost always tone things down, rather than told to add, or what to create by the publisher (again, which doesn't happen in doujinshi)
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:12 am Reply with quote
Another thing is that the otaku crowd isn't stupid. They can tell when a creator doesn't care and puts out a soulless work just to get money. They won't stand for it.
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Hypeathon



Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 1176
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:44 am Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Also, no one has problems objectifying men. Because sexism only affects females, apparently.

I'm getting a little tired of hearing this lately so I'm just going to say this upfront. The pandering and sexual fanservice or innuendo or whatever for female demographic can bother me just as much as with the male demographic.

It CAN bother me. The idea that it's a hot, lean but well-built shirt less guy who's on top of a girl by accident or temptation or that some other lean guy with glasses in a butler outfit who has such "grace, poise, perfection and pffftt", can make my eyes roll just as much as female characters with constant blush marks or a cast where one is a girl with big tits and another is a flat-chest loli character. Like... I don't care for Black Butler. Okay? I know it's a dark show and theres some level of depth amongst some of the characters. But it feels so flooded with steampunk, goth, butler, and seme/uke undertones that when I watched what I could watch, I felt it didn't make as much room for giving me a reason to symphasize with a Larry Sue of a butler and a constantly angsty kid.

So sexual pandering for females or whatever can bother me as much as from the other side of the fence. That said, it doesn't always bother me. The times where I know it's there but it doesn't make my eyes roll is due to how say, scenes or characterizations are executed. Like Star Driver for instance. After rewatching it lately on Crunchyroll understand where the problems in the show lie, but I really like that show and even don't mind the fanservice for the most part on either end. In fact, more often than not I find the fanservice to not feel so much like... well, fan service. Like really, the best kind of depiction of sexuality from either gender in anime is when it has a point, a valid one at that and it doesn't feel as obviously catering to either gender to get an arousal.

To me, the very nature of Star Driver is embracing elegance, beauty, sexuality, being dazzling and having a... I guess some sort of European-like aesthetic to add to it, from the how every member of the Glittering Crux is dressed, how the characters are dressed, how in some ways the characters embrace sexuality, how the Cybodies are designed, etc.. And that's just in addition to how there are motivations and thus a sense of depth behind a majority of the cast. Some argue how it's pointless to want fanservice in a show to not be there because that's part of the show and my general response to that sort of thing is that there's a show fanservice for the sake of it and then there's fanservice where it's meaningful and helps serve the point of a story or any part of one. Frankly I don't see much of the latter, but if I do, then I would defend that "fanservice is part of the show" argument.

But anyway, sexual pandering for females can bother me just as much as for males, but it really depends on whether the sexual pandering when I see it doesn't feel like pandering and how-so. And frankly, not that it happens frequently, but tend shows for females tend to do more out of the sexuality beyond pandering than shows for the male demographic.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:50 am Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Another thing is that the otaku crowd isn't stupid. They can tell when a creator doesn't care and puts out a soulless work just to get money. They won't stand for it.


And that's why a show like Infinite Stratos sold so poorly. Oh, wait . . .
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stardf29



Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 171
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:16 am Reply with quote
Infinite Stratos might not be a show that gets particularly high marks in storywriting but it's far from being a "soulless" work put out just to get money; believe it or not, there's an actual story there beyond the harem antics. (Not to mention it might have also drawn in a number of buyers who were fans of the action parts, which even ANN's reviewers consider well done.)
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Hypeathon



Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 1176
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:42 am Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Another thing is that the otaku crowd isn't stupid. They can tell when a creator doesn't care and puts out a soulless work just to get money. They won't stand for it.

Even if they do care and aren't just trying to make a quick buck (I don't really believe that they intend to earn big money anyway), the real problem for me is creators not having enough reference in their imagination reservoir. What I mean is that if the ideas in whatever story you create is mostly based on what stories like it came right before of a certain genre instead to finding other references for how to create your stories, preferably good ones, it can feel like a photocopy of a photocopy of what came before. That's probably how to some people, some works come off as feeling cynnical and souless. There was a lack of reaching for references in one's story beyond obvious cliches.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:05 am Reply with quote
stardf29 wrote:
Infinite Stratos might not be a show that gets particularly high marks in storywriting but it's far from being a "soulless" work put out just to get money; believe it or not, there's an actual story there beyond the harem antics. (Not to mention it might have also drawn in a number of buyers who were fans of the action parts, which even ANN's reviewers consider well done.)


Infinite Stratos is the very definition (metaphorically-speaking) of a soulless money-grab exercise. Just because it has good action doesn't make it a good show (think of BayFormers), and a story doesn't make the Harem 'checklist' elements any less insipidly-done.
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Crispy45



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 363
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:01 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
And that's why a show like Infinite Stratos sold so poorly. Oh, wait . . .


Infinite Stratos was a good show. You mad a good show sold well just because you didn't like it? Comparing it to BayFormers is an damn insult to the show and makes me think you have no idea what you're talking about.
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stardf29



Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 171
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:17 am Reply with quote
Clearly, for him, the harem insipidity elements outweigh the value of the story, which is fine for him; I'm just saying there are people who see it otherwise.

Anyways, I've defended the show and I'm not going to bother arguing it any more with someone whose tastes are clearly nowhere near mine. After all, I've got harem shows to watch. Very Happy And for me, the stupidity of those shows is half the fun. Very Happy (The other half is finding the smarter, deeper elements of those shows that everyone who writes them off will completely miss. Very Happy )
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Melicans



Joined: 01 Feb 2012
Posts: 620
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:41 am Reply with quote
stardf29 wrote:
And for me, the stupidity of those shows is half the fun. Very Happy (The other half is finding the smarter, deeper elements of those shows that everyone who writes them off will completely miss. Very Happy )


+1. Heaven's Lost Property is a prime example of this. On the surface it appears to be a quite silly and predictable, ecchi/harem title. And the stupidity in that material is absolutely at the forefront. But delve into it a little deeper and it's apparent that HLP is, at its a core, a really interesting philosophical debate on the nature of free will.

If a person don't bother looking past the stupidity to try and consider the smartness... I can only feel sorry that they are depriving themselves of that chance. People often make snap judgements based on their first impression, everything from "That guy is black and wearing a hoodie, he could be dangerous" to "This can of soup is dented, it must be bad inside" to "This is a harem show. I know I'll automatically hate it before I even give it a chance." Look beyond the shallow surface; try to at least consider the inner depths sometimes. You might find yourself genuinely surprised.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 13224
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:09 am Reply with quote
Hypeathon wrote:
Even if they do care and aren't just trying to make a quick buck (I don't really believe that they intend to earn big money anyway), the real problem for me is creators not having enough reference in their imagination reservoir. What I mean is that if the ideas in whatever story you create is mostly based on what stories like it came right before of a certain genre instead to finding other references for how to create your stories, preferably good ones, it can feel like a photocopy of a photocopy of what came before. That's probably how to some people, some works come off as feeling cynnical and souless. There was a lack of reaching for references in one's story beyond obvious cliches.


Here's another thing people don't seem to consider. What if that's what the author wants to write? What if the author enjoys such stories and wants to write their own? Last I checked there's no law saying that each and every single creator must aim for something original.

dtm42 wrote:
Infinite Stratos is the very definition (metaphorically-speaking) of a soulless money-grab exercise. Just because it has good action doesn't make it a good show (think of BayFormers), and a story doesn't make the Harem 'checklist' elements any less insipidly-done.


As some one's who's read all the Infinite Stratos novels I assure you that's not true. It's clear that the author is very much into what's he's writing (and is obviously a perv, considering how lovingly he describes the girls' bodies Laughing). Looking at the special features on the Blu Ray also shows you how much the staff and cast were into the series.
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RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 4210
Location: Towson, Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:12 am Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Here's another thing people don't seem to consider. What if that's what the author wants to write? What if the author enjoys such stories and wants to write their own? Last I checked there's no law saying that each and every single creator must aim for something original.


This is one major point many people forget about. Its otaku writing stories for otaku. People who write these LN and make the mangas these anime are based on were the ones buying all the anime and living the culture before that, and probably still do. Its not really as much of a "Checklist" as making stuff you enjoy.
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mike.motaku



Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 160
Location: Indiana
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:53 am Reply with quote
You know you're an elitist when you claim NO ONE actually watches anime (or anything else, for that matter) on TV anymore. I do. Does that make me no one? Or just no one of importance?

You know you're an elitist when it is just ASSUMED that everyone you are talking to has the exact same access to technology that you do. All the ads I've seen lately that say "just point your smart phone at this & join in the fun!" I don't own a smart phone. Not everyone does.

Do we not matter? Are we not as elite as everyone else?
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Hypeathon



Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 1176
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:57 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Here's another thing people don't seem to consider. What if that's what the author wants to write? What if the author enjoys such stories and wants to write their own? Last I checked there's no law saying that each and every single creator must aim for something original.

I never said of implied there was a law. As an aspiring artist, I personally would want to encourage and even help someone I know make better work with critiquing. Lots of artists do that that's a healthy way of doing creativity.

But if that artists doesn't care about being better and learning and applying new skills and instead just wants to create what they create, then fine I guess. If it helps them want to look foward to the next day, then who am I to stop them. At the same time, if it's a lot of people who feel way and don't care about aiming to be good, then I can't help but be a little disappointed. It's like I wouldn't want to watch Naruto for long if the main character didn't aim high being a ninja ya know?

RyanSaotome wrote:
This is one major point many people forget about. Its otaku writing stories for otaku. People who write these LN and make the mangas these anime are based on were the ones buying all the anime and living the culture before that, and probably still do. Its not really as much of a "Checklist" as making stuff you enjoy.

Ya know I hear this sort of thing where it basically sounds like "by otaku, for otaku" and I never thought about this, but it sounds like otaku generally don't care about being creative. And that's not an insult by the way. It's just an observation.

Like I hardly hear anyone who say they're otaku aspire in some kind of field of art, even if it's based on anime, manga they've seen and nothing else. There's nothing else to liking anime, manga or light novels beyond the idea of being entertained. Frankly I find that interesting because I can't help but think there are some people who if nothing else, aspire to be animators because of some anime or manga they watched. That's how I felt growing up as a kid and I'm still passionate about pursuing animation.
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