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BonnKansan



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:34 pm Reply with quote
Y'know, if you're annoyed when a poster makes an assertion that you disagree with, or a subjective opinion couched as a statement of fact, you could treat it like a fortune-cookie fortune - though instead of adding 'in bed', add 'in my opinion'. ('in bed' could be amusing too though Twisted Evil )
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4034

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:35 pm Reply with quote
Hypeathon wrote:
Ya know I hear this sort of thing where it basically sounds like "by otaku, for otaku" and I never thought about this, but it sounds like otaku generally don't care about being creative. And that's not an insult by the way. It's just an observation.


What kind of stuff do you actually like? I'd like to see what 'creative' actually is in your mind. If a show where a guy who gets his powers from sucking boob milk isn't 'creative' but is actually 'generic and been done thousands of times before' then I need a new definition of the word apparently.

Quote:
Like I hardly hear anyone who say they're otaku aspire in some kind of field of art, even if it's based on anime, manga they've seen and nothing else. There's nothing else to liking anime, manga or light novels beyond the idea of being entertained. Frankly I find that interesting because I can't help but think there are some people who if nothing else, aspire to be animators because of some anime or manga they watched. That's how I felt growing up as a kid and I'm still passionate about pursuing animation.


You see this, like, all the time in Japan. Are you kidding? Obviously you won't see it much out of westerners because it's kind of hard for any non-Japan to move to Japan and suddenly become a famous mangaka or animator or anything. But this stuff happens every day in Japan. The fact things like Comiket, the biggest convention in the world, and the fact it's dedicated to fan-creations of anime, manga, VNs, and otaku culture exists, pretty much proves this statement wrong.

Chagen46 wrote:
Because I don't want my favorite manga of all time to be sullied with the label of "harem"?


The sad thing is this kind of thinking is not uncommon here I've seen. "That's not an otaku anime, because it's actually good/I like it!" I guess people would rather distort facts and wait until the universe's reality rewrites itself before ever admitting something they like is of a genre they love to generalize and bash.

dtm42 wrote:
Crispy45 did not say "I like Infinite Stratos", they said "Infinite Stratos was a good show".

The first is their opinion which they are perfectly entitled to hold. The second - and what they actually said - is a factually incorrect statement.


Ok, I'll bite. How it is a 'factually incorrect statement'? I expect some kind of actual empirical proof to back this up, and not just statements of 'it sucks' and 'it's bad'.


Last edited by TitanXL on Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 4210
Location: Towson, Maryland

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:42 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
Vaisaga wrote:
Asterisk-CGY wrote:
Negima was a harem that went shonen as a paradigm shift by the author. So arguably its both.


Why are you and Chagen46 acting like the two things can't co-exist? Laughing A harem is a plot element rather than a genre, so it can go with many things: slice of life, mecha, fantasy, etc.

Negima may have gone shonen action, but it never lost that harem element.


Because I don't want my favorite manga of all time to be sullied with the label of "harem"?


http://www.youtube.com/​watch?​v=​-​n4EXqZCnL0

Not a harem, he says.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 12507
Location: NZL

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:46 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
Ok, I'll bite. How it is a 'factually incorrect statement'? I expect actual literary sources and proof to back this up, and not just 'it sucks' and 'it's bad' statements by yourself.


Do you think Anime even has literary sources, especially ones that cover a show made just last year?

Edit: huh, you changed it to empirical. Not fast enough though.

The most straight-forward way for me to explain how bad it is would be to list everything the show does badly. But that would take a lot of time and be redundant. The quickest way would be to just watch the show. If you can't see all the obvious instances of bad writing then you're beyond any help I can offer.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 5902
Location: Windsor Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:50 pm Reply with quote
Could always be that what you think is bad isn't actually bad. There is always the possibility that you're just plain wrong, the same as it's possible that I'm just plain wrong. Unless God himself descends and declares the truth we'll never know.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:00 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Could always be that what you think is bad isn't actually bad. There is always the possibility that you're just plain wrong, the same as it's possible that I'm just plain wrong. Unless God himself descends and declares the truth we'll never know.


Oh great, next thing you'll be telling me that we are unable to determine if Twilight is good or bad and that we will have to wait for the rapture before we can ever find out.

Of course we can know whether or not an Anime is good. It's called watching the show. I know it's kind of a radical idea but trust me, it does work.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4034

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:02 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Could always be that what you think is bad isn't actually bad. There is always the possibility that you're just plain wrong, the same as it's possible that I'm just plain wrong. Unless God himself descends and declares the truth we'll never know.


Pretty much. I watched the show and enjoyed it just fine. I suppose I'm just 'beyond help' because I enjoyed something someone else didn't.

I admire his bravado, at least. He does seem adamantly determined his opinion is fact and everyone else is wrong.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:24 pm Reply with quote
Indeed. I watched the show and loved it. I own the Blu Ray set and even read the novels. I showed it to my brother and he loved it too. A friend of mine that's not really into anime also watched it and liked it.

So dtm42, your method has been tried but the outcomes are different. How are we to know which result is the correct one? Or perhaps both are correct and the world is big enough for conflicting opinions? There's a thought.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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Location: NZL

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:51 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
So dtm42, your method has been tried but the outcomes are different. How are we to know which result is the correct one? Or perhaps both are correct and the world is big enough for conflicting opinions? There's a thought.


The world is certainly big enough for conflicting opinions. But truth values? Only one can be correct. There's nothing wrong with liking a bad show (I myself like several badly-written shows), but please don't pretend that just because you like it that means it isn't bad.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:09 pm Reply with quote
Believe me, I'll be the first to admit when a show I like is bad. However in this case that is not true. Oh look, my 'truth' is conflicting with your 'truth.' By definition the truth cannot be argued since it is an absolute (something is or something isn't), therefore since we disagree on this point it is not a question of 'truth' but of personal differences.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:14 pm Reply with quote
There is another explanation, but do I dare get into it?
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Mikeski



Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 424
Location: Minneapolis, MN

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:41 pm Reply with quote
The other explanation is that dtm42 is a solipsist.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:44 pm Reply with quote
Mikeski wrote:
The other explanation is that dtm42 is a solipsist.


LOL. But nice try.
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kakoishii



Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 641

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:34 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 would it kill you to just give one by the books example of bad writing in infinite stratos so those who watched the show and liked it know where you're coming from because this is just getting ridiculous. I'm a writer, so when you talk about there being some objective things in storytelling you can use to see if a story is being told well or poorly I completely understand that, but seeing as I've never watched infinite stratos I can't help you out on that one.

I guess what I'm getting at is I understand where you're coming from but your argument has no weight to it because you're kind of just being a prick about it. For example, I've read the twilight books and I can make a pretty decent list describing everything it does wrong in storytelling that makes it a poorly written book and use that in an argument against any twihard fan who's convinced it's the best novel ever written. Your argument "just watch the show" won't work for people who have watched it and liked what they saw because either you assertion that the story is poorly written is wrong or the viewer isn't privy to what makes a poorly written story.

Going back to the Twilight example, some twihard fan might say they thought the Bella and Edward romance was so romantic, but they might only think that because they don't see or realize how unhealthy the relationship actually is because of the sparkling cliches surrounding it that most people love to just eat right up.

tl, dr, back up your argument with actual examples or no one is going to take you seriously.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:06 pm Reply with quote
To further extend the Twilight example, what would you do when confronted by an Twilight fan who thinks that it is a good story? Would you bother to convince them? Or would you not even bother because you know it would be a waste of your time?

Also, an example (or even a list of them) of where Infinite Stratos went wrong would just be me listing things that anyone could see by watching the show. Really redundant, and a waste of my time. I don't accept that I am obligated to provide proof when the very evidence I would be providing is right there in the episodes - clear as daylight - for everyone to see. If you watched the show and didn't see the flaws then nothing I can say is going to change your mind.

If you don't want to take me seriously then that's your right. I'm just not in the mood to waste my time in a futile attempt to convince you otherwise.
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