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Animegomaniac



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 1542

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:59 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Negima was totally a harem manga. It wasn't until much later that it went the shonen action route, but that didn't stop it from still being a harem. It was still about a lone male being surrounded by numerous women who are all potential love interests.


Negima was the ultimate harem as making the male a ten year old boy make the whole "why don't they just have sex?" argument obvious. Not that there weren't some girls willing to try...

There's so many different kinds of harem shows that it's much harder to place them under the same category like mecha shows. You know that robot's going to be fighting someone {even if it's crime like in Patlabor} but you don't always know if that harem is going to stay peaceful.

And even keeping in the basic "boy meets girls" love comedy concept then there's multiple choice girls {the ones most obviously based on girl games}, love triangle with bonuses {Love Hina} or one girl with a lot of obstructions {Ai Yori Aoshi}. Not to forget actual harem shows like Tenchi that need to rely on sci-fi or fantasy trappings in order to be, well, "legal".

And that's why no one talks about harem shows; If you don't like them, they're harem shows. If you like them, you like them by title.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:01 pm Reply with quote
Most anime fans I find are fans of harem and ecchi (MAL, /a/, tumblr, various other boards) It's really just ANN I see that tend to be vocal and dislike those shows (Well, aside from the people who defend those shows in threads) I just imagine most fans either went elsewhere after all the bashing those shows tend to get here or still come here but just discuss those types of shows elsewhere in a more open/like-minded community (what I pretty much do, I rarely talk about anime here, just news)
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billborden



Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:09 pm Reply with quote
There is some solid truth in what Brian writes about the defenders of the Harem genre. Go back a few years, and I was one of those battered and bloody defenders (in particular, I'm thinking the "discussion" that came out of a few ANN reviews of Clannad~After Story). Coming out of that, and a few other less civil discussions, I learned that there are people that understand and people that never will. To be fair, the haters get the same response when they wonder into Harem/Fanservice/Sis-con/name-your-niche groups. You quickly learn that, unless your whole point is to p*** people off: aka-troill, there are simply some arguments not worth having. I'm never convincing Brian that there's value in "Shuffle" or "Koihime Musou" much less "Astarotte's Toy" or "SisPri" so why try; it will only aggravate everyone involved. I'm not saying that discussion is a bad thing, but I'm not going to preach atheism in a church or democratic socialism at the RNC convention. And the world still goes on because, whether you're a Harem-fan, Yuri/Yaoi-boy or a mecha-mania, you're still an anime fan (which, technically, means that most of the people around you are pretty sure that you're somewhere between odd and crazy anyway Wink )
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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Location: Windsor Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:16 pm Reply with quote
Animegomaniac wrote:
but you don't always know if that harem is going to stay peaceful.


I actually find that the best aspect of any romantic comedy show with multiple love interests (which is what people generally mean when they say 'harem show') is the interaction between the rival girls. Whether they be best friends having a fair competition or hated enemies that will go to any length, seeing how they play off each other is usually much more interesting then how they interact with the male lead.
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getchman
Pirate KingPirate King


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:09 pm Reply with quote
Viz is wisely taking baby steps with Neon Alley. there seems to be so much uncertainty and going all in at the start would be very disastrous if this fails. they do plan on expanding to other consoles and devices, we just have to have patience. i don't use netflix, or Hulu, and i only have a basic account for crunchyroll. the only other anime service i pay for is an EVS account with funi so i have no problem with $7 /month for Neon Alley. im gonna go create an account right now. i also like good harem themed anime once in a while

Last edited by getchman on Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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rheiders



Joined: 05 Jul 2011
Posts: 1022
Location: Colorful Colorado :)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:15 pm Reply with quote
Neon Alley really kind of depresses me a little bit. I am a die-hard dub fan who still enjoys occasionally watching some live TV. However, I don't own a PS3 and, because I'm not a gamer, I doubt I ever will. I might even have been tempted to buy the channel (though $7 is pretty stupid for an app that doesn't offer any on-demand or DVR services), but I can't because I don't have any interest in the systen it's available for. :/

On harem anime, I think that any individual anime forum you go on isn't going to give you the whole picture of anime fandom. Plenty of forums and the like are dedicated largely to harem and fanservice series, which is totally cool^^ There are others that are frequented by shounen fans, shoujo fans, manga fans, yaoi fans, yuri fans, etc. I like ANN's forums because the people here tend to have similar tastes to me. It's nice to have a forum where people discuss the older or artsier shows, and it's really easy for me to find recommendations of new series to watch that fit what I want to get out of the medium. It's just a matter of people migrating towards groups that are similar to them.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:15 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
I actually find that the best aspect of any romantic comedy show with multiple love interests (which is what people generally mean when they say 'harem show') is the interaction between the rival girls. Whether they be best friends having a fair competition or hated enemies that will go to any length, seeing how they play off each other is usually much more interesting then how they interact with the male lead.


But it's like, those female characters are one-dimensional because all they care about is winning the affection of a male. They base their self-worth over what the lead male thinks of them. Being in love with him and cooking and cleaning (and/or fighting) for him is what defines their character and their role in the show. It's pretty sexist.

Of course, those types of shows are also fairly sexist against the male gender. I for one am sick of the lead male characters in Harem shows. For one, they're almost always indecisive, because if the weren't then there wouldn't be a Harem in the first place. Secondly, they are either so perverted that they'd bang a car's exhaust pipe if given the chance or so milquetoast and sexless that even Ken has more balls than them.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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Location: Windsor Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:53 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
But it's like, those female characters are one-dimensional because all they care about is winning the affection of a male. They base their self-worth over what the lead male thinks of them. Being in love with him and cooking and cleaning (and/or fighting) for him is what defines their character and their role in the show. It's pretty sexist.


But that's not always true. Yes, there are plenty of one-note characters out there but contrary to popular belief most authors do put more effort into characterization than that. Each girl has a backstory and their own set of not love related issues. It's just the love of the protagonist that often help them through those issues. Perhaps the girl has strict parents who don't allow her any freedom and so she's drawn to the free spirited protagonist. Or maybe she's a wild girl always getting into trouble, but meeting the main dude makes her want to get her act together. Or maybe she has really low self esteem due to past trauma and feels she doesn't deserve the protagonist's love.

Mind you we're talking about the romance genre here, so obviously love is going to be a big deal Laughing

Take any old galge and you'll see that it's often not "these girls love you, pick one to sleep with" (though there is a subset of games like that), but you go through the story, picking the correct choices to get on the girls' good sides, and once you get on their route you dive into their personal problems and get through it, leading to the climax and resolution of their story. That sense of accomplishment because you worked to earn that ending doesn't exactly translate to anime, though...

Anywho, there are much more to these girls than their love of the main dude. You just gotta be willing to stick around for it to be revealed.

dtm42 wrote:
Of course, those types of shows are also fairly sexist against the male gender. I for one am sick of the lead male characters in Harem shows. For one, they're almost always indecisive, because if the weren't then there wouldn't be a Harem in the first place. Secondly, they are either so perverted that they'd bang a car's exhaust pipe if given the chance or so milquetoast and sexless that even Ken has more balls than them.


I'm not overly fond of the perverted sort of protagonist if only because despite their nature they never capitalize on their situation. The weak willed protagonist I understand more. They often don't want to hurt the other girls by only choosing one.

There's another thing I am surprised I've only ever seen addressed in Muv Luv Unlimited: Takeru considers the possibilities all his squadmates are in love with him, but he dismisses it as him being egotisitical. And who wouldn't think that? People who'd go "Ya know, all these chicks dig me!" are often viewed as being stuck up playboys. A thought like "Could they be... nah, why would they?" is seen more positively since it's modest.

Anyways, there are also plenty of decisive leads who decide on their girl and stick to it until the very end. Kaoru from Ai Yori Aoshi, Rito from To Love Ru, Amata from Aquarion Evol, Shingo from Mashiro-iro Symphony, and Kirito from SAO to name a few (all except the first being fairly recent).

I hope the question poser is satisfied with my defense of the harem genre Smile
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rheiders



Joined: 05 Jul 2011
Posts: 1022
Location: Colorful Colorado :)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:16 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
I hope the question poser is satisfied with my defense of the harem genre Smile


Sorry to butt in on the conversation, but I just wanted to say that although the harem genre isn't really my thing, I thought your defense of it was quite well-thought-out and I enjoyed reading it^^ It's always nice to hear another point of view without having to try and read around the insult-throwing. If only the arguments going on in the preview guide thread right now could be this thoughtful and civil...
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:17 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Each girl has a backstory and their own set of not love related issues. It's just the love of the protagonist that often help them through those issues.


Yes, each girl needs to be 'fixed' by a boy. Groan.

Vaisaga wrote:
There's another thing I am surprised I've only ever seen addressed in Muv Luv Unlimited: Takeru considers the possibilities all his squadmates are in love with him, but he dismisses it as him being egotisitical. And who wouldn't think that?


What about the situations where you have five chicks living at your home vying for the right to be your wife, or there's a girl so psychotically into you she tries to rape you in the middle of the street (coughKanokoncough). If you don't think that they are in love with you, then - plain and simple - you're a f*cking moron.
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getchman
Pirate KingPirate King


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:20 pm Reply with quote
i don't think Kaoru counts. he won at childhood, way before he met the other girls
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CrownKlown



Joined: 05 May 2011
Posts: 1052

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:53 pm Reply with quote
I don't see how harems are any worst than the show that pander to deluded yuri fans with scenarios that have zero chance of happening in real life. I think it was even on ANN or another site where it was even admitted as such that the core audience of these unrealistic fluff arent even lesbians in the first place. Yet these shows get way over praised on here.

On the flip side there are plenty of good harems, although I would probably say the two that appeal the most to people would be High School DxD and Certain Magical Index. And in regards to plot and story Index is right up there with one of the more intriguing plots, the whole Science vs Magic context. And yes its a harem, in fact Touma is the harem king. DxD is also popular because like TLR is very unapologetic and will probably end in an actual harem ending for once. Not to mention its has its own fun take on combing different religions and super natural beliefs while spinning quite a fun yarn.

I think though in the end Brian is actually fair and I can't fault him, the problem is people will look at his comment (ill admit even I did this somewhat) where he states his opinion and take it like he is stating a fact and overreact. But he is just stating an opinion. Its like how some people think Pollock is the greatest artist in the world, and other people just don't think he has any talent. Although I will say his words are rather incendiary, he could use a little more tactic to express his dislike. Im not going to go senien board and say Berserk is garbage no matter how little I think of it because the flames will erupt (btw that was just an example, I don't think that, but Berserk are some of the most hardcore fans).
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:02 pm Reply with quote
CrownKlown wrote:
I think it was even on ANN or another site where it was even admitted as such that the core audience of these unrealistic fluff arent even lesbians in the first place.


You don't think that gay men are the primary audience for Yaoi and BL, do you? Of course not; fangirls are what drives those genres, and everyone knows that. So why does Yuri being aimed at straight males bother you? It's just the mirrored situation.

Speaking generally, boys like girl-on-girl, girls like boy-on-boy. This is not new.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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Location: Windsor Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:07 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Yes, each girl needs to be 'fixed' by a boy. Groan.


Why do you have to put it like that? They don't need 'fixing', they just need help. If they could overcome such issues alone... well, they wouldn't be issues in the first place.

dtm42 wrote:
What about the situations where you have five chicks living at your home vying for the right to be your wife, or there's a girl so psychotically into you she tries to rape you in the middle of the street (coughKanokoncough). If you don't think that they are in love with you, then - plain and simple - you're a f*cking moron.


Maybe the dude *gasp* doesn't appreciate the attention? It's been known to happen.

getchman wrote:
i don't think Kaoru counts. he won at childhood, way before he met the other girls


Kaoru is an interesting case because he hooked up with Aoi before he even got into the harem situation.

I do have my own share of complaints regarding harem shows. The girl he'll end up with is usually blatantly obvious from the opening. The guy will usually fall for her at the start, meaning she doesn't have to put any effort into winning him over. The other girls do, and seeing them try so hard and yet doomed to failure makes them more sympathetic to me and I'll wish they'd be the winners instead. That's why shows like Shuffle, Akane-iro, and Mashiro-iro stand out since they go against the obvious.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 12767
Location: NZL

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:17 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Why do you have to put it like that? They don't need 'fixing', they just need help. If they could overcome such issues alone... well, they wouldn't be issues in the first place.


Yes, but they so often have issues, and it is almost always the boy who fixes them.

One interesting exception is Tomoyo from Clannad, who had a problem but didn't really need his help to solve it.

Vaisaga wrote:
Maybe the dude *gasp* doesn't appreciate the attention? It's been known to happen.


You may want to look over what you said and edit it, because it has no relevancy to what was being discussed. We weren't talking about whether the boy wanted the attention or not but rather if he knew his love interests were in love with him.

Like I said, when there are multiple girls living at your home trying to force-feed you their bento which they got up at 5am to make, then you'd have to be brain-dead not to notice their feelings.
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