Forum - View topicPsycho-Pass (TV) (all seasons).
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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Episode 9
I see now how far this season is about judging the system. There is hints that the spoiler[system purposely has blind spots on being able to judge people. The reason being not that the system can't tell if they are right or wrong, but if it was not then the system could be judged, then if the system can be judged as wrong the entire thing falls down]. @ Harleyquin No, I do really think the mother is a rogue, spoiler[clearly she is not working with all within the system. In fact it looks like she is manipulating Kamui, this is how they got the ear when granny was in Tougane's possession]. There is a question though of how someone spoiler[born to be able to stay so clear despite being so cruel, yet would later be mentioned as the highest seen]. It could be that he was a guinea spoiler[pig for being able to make someone black, and that such a technique will be used to cut people the system refuses to judge wrong, perhaps to get rid of certain brains]. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2841 |
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The way I saw the omnipotence paradox being described in this episode, it was used to spoiler[help Tsunemori figure out the motives for the system in not absorbing Kamui for itself to further evolve. She had asked the director this question a few weeks back and did not get a straight answer. For Tsunemori, the system's approach to Kamui (as well as the dominator issue with Shisui) is key to actually stopping his scheme and fulfilling her aim of apprehending Kamui alive. ]
The original paradox did not suppose a 3rd party, but that is not the case with this setting. Some argue that using a 3rd party spoiler[is the same as Sophistry since one of the preconditions of the original paradox was of only two actors, but Tsunemori worked out the possible scenarios of what would happen if Kamui did succeed in aiming a dominator to the chief's head. We are not told WHAT conclusion she arrived at because her communicator interrupted her, but she suspects something about the surgeon's execution. ] I have to disagree with the notion that spoiler[Toogane Masako is working independently of the system. It is not inconceivable that the system's plan is to provoke Tsunemori enough to get her motivated enough to murder, and then get her to finish off Kamui as Toogane wished. Since Toogane sees himself as Sybill's acolyte, it follows that Sybill is quite willing to sacrifice Tsunemori as a sample of the "ideal citizen accepting of the system" in exchange for ridding itself of a dangerous variable in Kamui. Since Shimotsuki has been brought round to the system's scheme, keeping two inspectors in the know does not seem to be high on the system's list of priorities. ] Regarding Toogane Sakuya and this week in comparison to the Human Resources file a few weeks ago, my take is spoiler[ the HR file being deliberately falsified (not hard since the file Shimotsuki picked up wasn't released in the public domain in the first place). Another more complicated explanation refers to Makishima in Season 1 episode 11. One of the traits of the 免罪体質者 is the ability to freely manipulate their crime coefficient. If you recall Makishima's score slowly decreased to zero as Tsunemori tried to no avail to shoot him with the shotgun. Toogane could have allowed his score to rise as high as possible when he was younger to record the score that was on his HR file. It's not convincing, which is why falsified data in the HR report was my initial conclusion. There is nothing within the Sybill system's rules to prevent it from withholding or giving deliberately misleading information ] Interestingly enough, spoiler[Kamui and his classmate were both aware of the "trump card" which the classmate claimed to have taken possession of. Kamui declined to use it since he wants Tsunemori as the perfect witness to society going up in flames, but the classmate sees Tsunemori as a threat and would prefer to hinder her by using the grandmother as a hostage. Toogane (and the system) deliberately leaked the whereabouts of Tsunemori Aoi to the classmate since it forwarded its own goals of forcing Tsunemori Akane over the edge. ] Last edited by Harleyquin on Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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Then why did one of the brains warn Akane? Why does the system not know what is going to happen with Kamui when Masako seems to have a direct line to Kamui? Why was the guy talking about not only making society clear, but the Sybil system to (hinting that he currently sees it as imperfect)? Why now is was she so interested in getting rid of people that may know about her past? Why has Akane kept her position when Masako sees her as some threat to get rid of? |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2841 |
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Answers to each question below: 1. If you're referring to the conversation between the chief and Tsunemori when she declared her intention to capture Kamui alive, I interpreted it as giving Tsunemori a free hand to find out more about the target's motives. Now that it's been ascertained, the system has decided she's outlived her usefulness and her aim of capturing Kamui alive is in direct opposition to the system's aims. If you're referring to the warning about Toogane, that's with the same information that was disproved in this episode. The system doesn't need to tell the truth all the time, remember the extent to which Inspector Ginoza was briefed regarding Makishima's true nature. 2. The system still doesn't know anything about Kamui, but it definitely has a handle on his subordinates. With the reports from division 1 kindly explaining the true identity of 185 persons in society, it wouldn't take the system very long to lock on to the locations of these people. The classmate only just briefed Kamui on his latest "acquisition", going by the timeline on the official website 10 days have passed since the surgeon was taken in for questioning and the events at the mansion. More than enough time for contact to be arranged between Toogane and Kamui's gang. 3. Kamui doesn't like the chains the Sybill system imposed on society, so his aim is to deliver everyone from its chains like he is and giving him more compatriots. He also despises the system for creating the conditions of his invisibility in the first place, but there is no evidence so far that he is aware of the system's true nature. 4. When the surgeon was executed using the dominator in public bureau HQ, notice how quickly the rest of the team came to the conclusion that Kamui using a hologram had infiltrated the building and used the dominator to finish off the surgeon who had presumably talked too much. The team is well aware of his hacking abilities, so they attributed the altered security footage to his handiwork. Note also that Tsunemori did not make any statements as to what she thought of the matter... spoiler[The audience is aware that the bureau chief was responsible for the execution, but it's not inconsistent with my hypothesis that the system (not just Toogane Masako) wants to set up Tsunemori to kill Kamui for it. By setting up Kamui as the perpetrator, it also mislead the team into believing that the surgeon was killed because he knew too much about Kamui and that the information could be used to thwart the grand scheme. ] 5. Nothing wrong with keeping Tsunemori in the loop when the grand plan on the system's part is to spoiler[get her to do the dirty work for it. It can stay in the loop on the system's true nature since it doesn't interfere with the plan to make her homicidal enough to kill. ] |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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I don't think it was. If it is because you assume that it is because Tougane should stay clear thus the system lied about his colour and such, I don't think that is proven. Continuously Tougane has been mentioned about making someone "black", and I think that is exactly what has happened to him. They got him to kill puppies to see if they could increase the number, and they were happy that it had no effect. What they wanted was to see if they could turn such a person "black", and they managed to do so. The reason for can be figured out by what Tougane said a couple episodes back about wanting to make the Sybil system clear. This implies that Sybil is currently not perfect (clear), which looks like it might be to actually prune certain parts of it by turning them black. |
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HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
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You mean granny spoiler[isn't just a passive and helpless bundle of teary hostage flesh and actually an actor in these events?] Well, hot dam. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2841 |
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I see two different things in the system keeping Toogane in a correctional facility and Toogane's personal motivation in mimicking Othello's Iago and driving people closer to criminal behaviour. spoiler[ Toogane Masako genetically engineered her son to see if she could replicate artificially the 1 in 2000 phenomenon of people born with the natural affinity to fool the Sybill system. She got her wish when the trials featuring her "son" and the puppies demonstrated the effect she was looking for. ] spoiler[ Toogane's (reported) career as an enforcer starts after he has graduated from the schooling system, receives his diploma for therapy and is assigned to the bureau. It is from this point on that his CV gives 5 instances of his commanding inspectors' crime coefficients exceeding 300 forcing him to execute them. ] spoiler[ Look back at the episodes aired thus far and name one instance when Toogane was actually measured by a dominator. All of the info about Toogane having society's highest ever criminal coefficient is from the bureau chief's mouth and the suppressed CV on his computer. Toogane himself did not seem too bothered that his private information had been copied without his consent, given the circumstances of the most recent episode I don't think he was too bothered. ] spoiler[ Are you confusing Kamui with Toogane? I don't remember a single instance when Toogane actually claimed to want to "clear" the Sybill System like Kamui. In last week's episode, he stated his own existence was to keep his mother Masako and the Sybill system 美しく清らかにする. In Japanese, the term Toogane used to describe himself can be interpreted like you did in keeping the system clear in a similar way to Kamui's goal. However another interpretation is to keep the system "clean" by removing any threat to the system which would blacken the system's reputation and standing as a pillar of society. Kamui's existence as the very antithesis of the system (explained using the Omnipotence paradox this week) and Tsunemori's pledge to take Kamui in alive to make him answer to his crimes are exactly what the system fears most of all since it would destroy society's trust in it. To prevent the system from being "blackened" by the truth, Toogane's task is to "clean up" and cover up the matter. ] |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11349 |
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Um, no? Because she certainly spoiler[is/was that. They just wanted to make sure you knew how Akane recognized it at once by blinding you with it before.] I have a feeling that the new kid is supposed to be the 185th student. If so, that's a face-palm right there, since it seems like, in a society where the system scans you from the moment you leave the house and even notices if you don't leave for too long, they would have noticed spoiler[he didn't get on the plane] before handing out body counts to the press. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2841 |
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He was in the same school as the other 185 but as a transfer student. Apparently he lived with survivor's guilt for so long that it turned his criminal coefficient up to latent criminal status. He probably missed the plane for some reason, but that does not make him part of the casualty list.
Unfortunately for the hypothesis, he's not part of the 185 since he doesn't have a hologram for Kamui to borrow. Also, his public profile is too noticeable because Kamui did a good enough job lowering his coefficient for him to take on the politician's job. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11349 |
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I didn't say it made sense, I said I had a feeling that was what the writers had in mind by making the body count discrepant. I've given up on this making any sense at this point. I'm just going along to see if the end is going to be as big a disaster as Hamatora, Galilei Donna, and Terror in Resonance were.
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2841 |
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Looks like I'm in the minority in actually appreciating the series for what it is rather than for what people want it to be. I'll miss the last episode and will have to catch up on it close to the end of the year, but I'm really curious to see what happens to Kamui, Tsunemori and if it'll all link to the upcoming movie. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11349 |
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No, I think the majority of viewers are liking it. It hasn't enraged me the way those other series did (yet), so I'm still finding it entertaining, but not much more than that. At least it's good for a laugh at how over-the-top villainous Tougane has become in the last couple episodes, now that he's been outed as Eeevil and not just a mole or something more mundane. My PP is still clear.
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Ghost_Wheel
 Posts: 203 |
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I don't have time to look it up, but I remember Akane being curious and measuring once not long after Sybil told her that juicy tidbit. Anyway, spoiler[It's getting tougher for me to be invested in this because a lot of the Omnipotence Paradox stuff brought out a lot of the demons from last season. I've said it before, but I don't like the "criminally asymptotic" idea at all. First, the idea that these people who cannot be judged should be the ones running things does not intuitively, emotionally, or logically follow for me. It makes sense to me that you would get a lot of the problems that you see in the society assuming what we know about Sybil's recruitment system, not because I'm human and I think it's wrong on a gut level or it doesn't feel right, but because I really can't logically see the train of thought that leads to people unexplainably being able to commit crimes being people you would put this kind of societal trust in. Even assuming that these people exist I find it hard to believe that this is the best solution to deal with them (the show keeps plugging in fact, that this is the ONLY solution, which is one of the only things really keeping this dilemma tied down as a "paradox").] spoiler[I think that as we see it, the idea of a "criminally asymptotic" person isn't really a complete one either, so it's even harder for us to interact with it, make judgments, and relate on an emotional level to the members of the society. So criminally asymptotic means that they can't be judged. But WHY can't they be judged? What's the reason that binds these people together and makes them fit for Sybil? In some ways it's implied that their personality is deviant in some unique way, and Makishima probably enforces this idea the most. To this end Sybil collects "interesting" people to diversify its own makeup, for which there are a lot of benefits. But if that were the goal they would seek out geniuses, artists, or even in the direct context of the show, people like Saija. For some reason it has to be criminals. Running a society isn't just about crime either, how are criminals supposed to decide who goes to police school and who goes to become a carpenter or a scientist when other people apparently can't judge who is supposed to be a criminal? It's not symmetric. Even more troubling is the fact that it seems to be a physical trait which isn't related to anything else either. Seeing as people like Tougane can be created artificially, CA is something which can be studied and understood, but we as an audience don't know if it's connected to any other qualities of a human being or if certain people are just born that way whether or not they're criminals or have any other correlation you could think of.] spoiler[At the end of the day, it seems like a really heavy handed way to make the statement "Sybil puts itself on a pedestal, but what if there were people it couldn't judge?" The first thing I think of is why can't they judge them and how can they fix that, but the whole thing just goes down this roller coaster of being forced to appropriate them and making a paradox out of it. I feel like as a viewer I'm supposed to throw my hands up and say "Well they can't be judged, that just means the system isn't perfect! Screw you, utopia, I want my flawed human society and justice system back!" At this point I've made the realization that Psycho Pass and I are probably never going to see eye to eye on a fundamental level, which kind of saddens me since the show always had potential. I'll ride it out though cause I'm still having fun with it in other ways and it's definitely one of the better shows of the season imo.] |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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I thought that is kind of exactly what the paradox was saying. Technically the spoiler[reason those people cannot be judged is because they have some sort of chemical differences that could make them emotionally unstable, which actually makes them among other things totally lack empathy. Chances are that it actually could judge those people if it wanted to, but it is a choice not to so that when they become part of the system they themselves are judged as clear, even as it might see horrible things and decide someone has to die]. The system needs spoiler[no emotions of a normal person, and judging everyone on those emotions means it is unquestionable under that authority]. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2841 |
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@Ghost Wheel: I'd like you to look up the scene. If it did happen, then the whole premise on Toogane spoiler[being criminally asymptomatic is a contradiction which needs to be resolved since it implies all dominators are programmed to give a false reading for Toogane. ]
I'm not sure why, but many of those who finished the first season spoiler[make the automatic assumption that those who were born with the genetic and biological makeup of criminal asymptomaticism are all necessarily criminals. It might be Makishima's fault, but one small detail that's forgotten is Touma Kouzaburou who had exactly the same condition yet managed to find gainful employment as a teacher before Makishima scouted him out and egged him on in his eventual committing of the taxidermy cases. The system itself made it clear that many of its members had committed crimes worse than Makishima but it does not say all of them were criminals who were caught and incorporated into the system voluntarily. ] Again, it's always referring to the season 1 episode when Tsunemori and the hive mind have a long 1-to-1 chat with each other. It sometimes helps since a lot of assumptions and conclusions are made on the part of the viewer which may not necessarily follow from what the show attempted to convey in the first season. It surprises me how much vitriol can be poured onto the application of the omnipotence paradox as an ideal type for Tsunemori to help herself better understand the goals and motivations of both Kamui and the System he is trying to bring down. The original paradox did not factor in the existence of 3rd parties, yet it's quite clear there are other actors besides Kamui and the System in her analysis (namely everyone else in society including herself). Note also when Tsunemori finally reached her conclusion on the outcome when Kamui tries to judge the system, she spoiler[is interrupted before she can explain what that is leaving viewers to draw their own conclusions which might not necessarily correspond with Tsunemori's future actions. ] Bear in mind that spoiler[Toogane Masako is also a part of the hive mind, even if many viewers assume her actions are independent of the system's consensus. The show has not displayed documented proof that she is a criminal, viewers are inclined to draw out that conclusion from the experiments she headed. In the setting of the series, Masako is a holder of multiple industrial patents which allowed the Toogane group to gain significant financial benefits from their use. In this way, she does fit the rules established in season 1 of being both criminally asymptomatic and with a different occupational background to allow the system to better judge society. ] One of the assumptions underpinning this series is probably spoiler[exceptions (criminally asymptomatic people) being employed to prove the rule (everyone else in society with regular psycho passes) and to discover more exceptions in order that the base of possibilities governing the rule is further broadened and the range of foreseeable actions useable by unknown exceptions (unborn/undiscovered asymptomatic people) is reduced as much as possible. The series also inverts the saying "it takes one to know one" on its head. ] |
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