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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 6159
Location: Windsor Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:58 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
There's a difference between yuri shipping (which is, you know, shipping) and actual yuri as a genre, and you really shouldn't confuse the two.


Right, like I said I get yuri as a genre, but some fans attitudes are too much. Still I usually skip a directly stated yuri series unless there's more to it than that.

Fencedude5609 wrote:
That being said, for some people if a girl doesn't standup and proclaim to the heavens that she's a lesbian, than no matter how she acts, she's just waiting for the right guy to come along and she'll get over it.


I'll admit to usually working under that assumption (the first half, anyways), especially since Japan isn't exactly known for being particularly progressive. I've seen plenty of characters like Ai Yori Aoshi's Tina Foster who loves groping other girls, but is obviously not a lesbian so certain behaviours won't necessarily make me think 'lesbian.'

Still, there are shows like Saki that beat you over the head with it so hard there's really no alternative (save Yuuki/Kyoutarou). It would be ideal if everything was just portrayed openly like Yume/Yuuki from Kanamemo.

I still firmly believe that the vast majority of people are heterosexual, though. Otherwise humanity would be screwed Laughing
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Mikeski



Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 448
Location: Minneapolis, MN

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:55 am Reply with quote
Genres undeserving of their reputations?

It's more of a misunderstanding than anything, but "slice of life". The reputation: "Nothing ever happens! So it sucks!" The reality: "Nothing ever happens! And that's the whole point!"

The one I'm prejudiced against: the Infinite Shounen Showdown. I'm sure it's not all 50% filler episodes and individual punches that take two episodes to connect... but I used to watch anime when it was on Cartoon Network, so that's what I expect of the genre. Smile
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jymmy



Joined: 11 Nov 2011
Posts: 794

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:00 am Reply with quote
Hopeless Wanderer wrote:
I'm not big fan of the moe genre at all (okay it's not so much as genre as it's more an art-style)

Moe is a subjective audience reaction. A "moe show" is one that tries to produce this effect and "moe traits" are those that are found to produce the effect.
Oh, and while we're being pedantic, mahou shoujo is a genre (anime about (magical) girls), shoujo is a demographic (anime made for girls). Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura (plus the many older classics) are both, Revolutionary Girl Utena is the latter and Madoka is the former.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5085

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:02 am Reply with quote
jymmy wrote:

Moe is a subjective audience reaction. A "moe show" is one that tries to produce this effect and "moe traits" are those that are found to produce the effect.
Oh, and while we're being pedantic, mahou shoujo is a genre (anime about (magical) girls), shoujo is a demographic (anime made for girls). Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura (plus the many older classics) are both, Revolutionary Girl Utena is the latter and Madoka is the former.


Yes, this. (well, Utena's sorta Mahou Shoujoish, maybe a better example would have been Ouran or Fruits Basket or something)
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CrownKlown



Joined: 05 May 2011
Posts: 1052

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:21 am Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
Vaisaga wrote:

Specifically, I'm not very fond of yuri. I understand the appeal and see why people would enjoy it, but some fans... I don't get this attitude that "men are disgusting and true, pure love can only exist between females" and "it is impossible for two girls to be just very close friends." Or I suppose I do get it, I just think it's ridiculous.


There's a difference between yuri shipping (which is, you know, shipping) and actual yuri as a genre, and you really shouldn't confuse the two.

That being said, for some people if a girl doesn't standup and proclaim to the heavens that she's a lesbian, than no matter how she acts, she's just waiting for the right guy to come along and she'll get over it.

Its a very limiting mindset. (and yes, the same goes for yaoi subtext)


No. Most people tend to think characters are lesbians unless stated otherwise. For christ sake every show or game I watch and play if two girls are close, bam school girl lesbians. A good example of this is Rita and Estelle from Vesperia. Rita is a girl who has been shunned her whole life, an outcast. She then becomes friendly with Estelle, who just has a sunny disposition. Instead of viewing them as best friends, or even she is my non blood sister, the first thing I hear is zomg they have to discreet lesbians. And this happens in every dam show.

Let me tell you a secret, sometimes two girls or two guys are just really good friends.

And at the other person talking about Gravion, I would say Eiji is not the main character, he is at best a co main character with Toga, at worst he was a plot point to get the story moving. A lot of the focus of the series is on the humanizing of Toga and Eiji is just plot point used to demonstrate this. How the hell could you like Eiji anyway? He was some unskilled pompous little punk who would resort to violence first thing something didn't go his way. Frankly the show could have done fine without him, but then they would have no one to pilot the leg.

As far as genres go, I think sports are probably the weakest. Theres really only a small handful that I actually like.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5085

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:27 am Reply with quote
CrownKlown wrote:

No. Most people tend to think characters are lesbians unless stated otherwise. For christ sake every show or game I watch and play if two girls are close, bam school girl lesbians. A good example of this is Rita and Estelle from Vesperia. Rita is a girl who has been shunned her whole life, an outcast. She then becomes friendly with Estelle, who just has a sunny disposition. Instead of viewing them as best friends, or even she is my non blood sister, the first thing I hear is zomg they have to discreet lesbians. And this happens in every dam show.


There's a difference between yuri fans shipping (which is what Ristelle is, even if I think it is adorable, and Yuri's better with Judith anyway) and other people ignoring actual, undeniable subtext or even actual text. Also, how does it hurt you if someone thinks a girl is gay? Does that make her less enjoyable for you?

Quote:
Let me tell you a secret, sometimes two girls or two guys are just really good friends.


I'll let you in on a secret: gay people actually exist, and their existence won't harm you.

I can list tons and tons of examples where if the couple in question were male/female, there would be no question whatsoever that they were an item, but since its not explicitly stated that one or both is gay, people won't believe it.

If you want less yuri (and yaoi) shipping, tell Japan to stop making its heros and heroines much more shippable with their own gender than with their putative love-interests. This is actual a pretty major thing, that comes up all the time.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4035

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:42 am Reply with quote
We all know Raven x Rita is canon anyway.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5085

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:43 am Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
We all know Raven x Rita is canon anyway.


Creepier, for sure.
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jymmy



Joined: 11 Nov 2011
Posts: 794

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:01 am Reply with quote
Mikeski wrote:
The one I'm prejudiced against: the Infinite Shounen Showdown. I'm sure it's not all 50% filler episodes and individual punches that take two episodes to connect...

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with battle shounen (except the most popular tent to be crap), but the problem is in how they're adapted. The difference in quality between the Soul Eater anime and the Naruto anime is far greater than the difference in quality between their respective manga because the latter is adapted in order to run continuously alongside the manga and thus becomes intolerable crap with atrocious pacing.
Mikeski wrote:
It's more of a misunderstanding than anything, but "slice of life". The reputation: "Nothing ever happens! So it sucks!" The reality: "Nothing ever happens! And that's the whole point!"

I think you follow the wrong circles in anime discussion. I've never seen anyone legitimately criticise slice-of-life on principle that way.
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rojse



Joined: 08 Sep 2010
Posts: 233

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:06 am Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
If a show exists to sell toys, how can I trust it to have artistic integrity?


Just because a show or movie helps push toys, doesn't make it a bad show - look at Pixar's movies, for example.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4035

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:07 am Reply with quote
jymmy wrote:
Mikeski wrote:
The one I'm prejudiced against: the Infinite Shounen Showdown. I'm sure it's not all 50% filler episodes and individual punches that take two episodes to connect...

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with battle shounen (except the most popular tent to be crap), but the problem is in how they're adapted. The difference in quality between the Soul Eater anime and the Naruto anime is far greater than the difference in quality between their respective manga because the latter is adapted in order to run continuously alongside the manga and thus becomes intolerable crap with atrocious pacing.


On the flip side, Soul Eater and Fullmetal Alchemist go off the tracks halfway through once the anime-only stuff takes over, while other shows, like Naruto and Fairy Tail, can incorporate their anime-only stuff into being intertwined and connected to the stuff adapted from the manga and make it transition more naturally.
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6160

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:12 am Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:

If you want less yuri (and yaoi) shipping, tell Japan to stop making its heros and heroines much more shippable with their own gender than with their putative love-interests. This is actual a pretty major thing, that comes up all the time.


This. Part of the problem is that Japan loves lacing shows with yuri subtext and undertones but virtually never actually goes anywhere with it. I mean, holy crap, all of the biggest yuri shows are sub-text only, at best. Maria-sama ga Miteru was pretty much the poster child for yuri for the late 2000s but its just sisterly/friend relationships with lesbian subtext (and one actual lesbian, but well....). And now there's freaking Yuru Yuri, the only "yuri" show in the past ~2 years. If not for Mouretsu Pirates and Horizon, the yuri scene would be a really depressing place these past few years.

You can't simply blame the fans for this. Anime creators are intentionally putting yuri subtext in their shows and playing up that angle, courting that audience and knowing what yuri fans are looking for. You can't simply blame yuri fans for shipping (and at least some of us are well aware that we are shipping, and painfully aware of the distinction between subtextual teasing and actual yuri/lesbians) when the anime are actively going for that and intentionally blurring the lines between same-sex friendship and romance. All while just short of never being willing to actually commit to it. That we have two shows with actual lesbian couples in it in the same year is a miracle.

At the same time, as Fencedude said, some people are intent on insisting that two characters could not possibly have romantic interests in each other short of them actually confessing and making out. Whereas if one of them was the opposite sex, people would instantly just "know" they were destined romantic partners.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5085

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:16 am Reply with quote
HitokiriShadow wrote:
Whereas if one of them was the opposite sex, people would instantly just "know" they were destined romantic partners.


cf. Okita Sawa and Tanaka Taichi
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6160

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:17 am Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
HitokiriShadow wrote:
Whereas if one of them was the opposite sex, people would instantly just "know" they were destined romantic partners.


cf. Okita Sawa and Tanaka Taichi


Yeah, I almost mentioned Tari Tari specifically because of them.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5085

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:20 am Reply with quote
HitokiriShadow wrote:
Fencedude5609 wrote:
HitokiriShadow wrote:
Whereas if one of them was the opposite sex, people would instantly just "know" they were destined romantic partners.


cf. Okita Sawa and Tanaka Taichi


Yeah, I almost mentioned Tari Tari specifically because of them.


I had to go look up Taichi's family name wwww
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