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Hey, Answerman! - Harem Harumph


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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:22 am Reply with quote
Subtext is probably more cute/appealing to the fanbase. Personally, I found all the subtle Ami/Makoto stuff in Sailor Moon more enjoyable than the straight out Haruka/Michiru yuri coupling. It seems more cute and innocent. Precure is straight out guilty of this; especially with Hibiki and Kanade in Suite.
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Vata Raven



Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 710
Location: TN
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:35 am Reply with quote
...people give the short stick for a lot of BL/yaoi and GL/yuri titles. If a harem loving fans thinks their harem gets a lot of "hate", then my BL stuff is blow that. Even less people watch it, less chance of it getting licensed...then even more of a less chance of getting it dubbed. At least harem get licensed and dubbed.

Hell, I read that guys won't even watch No.6 because they looked up that the two leads kiss...that's is pretty closed-minded. And the director for Tiger & Bunny also stated is one of them were female, they would've been an official couple. That would've been a huge step in anime if they did push for two male leads being a couple. But they were having enough backlash from companies when they learned that the 1 character was gay. Honestly, there is nothing wrong with it gays, they're normal people and the relationship can be as normal as any straight couple.

And I don't see how it's an issue when a gay guy is in the cast (non-BL anime), as long is doens't really influence the story in anyway. Hell, if they did push for the gay couple of Tiger & Bunny, they could've just stated that they were an item and left it at that and maybe have them living together. It wouldn't effect the plot, they might've wrote some things a bit differently. But if Tiger was gay, would people like him less because of it? I would like to say "no," but I don't think that would be the case. I read X-factor (Marvel comic) and people stopped reading it when Rictor and Shatterstar became a couple, saying it "ruined" the characters, while the other half were expecting it to happen. But the gay couple doesn't effect the detective comic and the writer touches up on the relationship very slowly.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:43 am Reply with quote
Vata Raven wrote:

Hell, I read that guys won't even watch No.6 because they looked up that the two leads kiss...that's is pretty closed-minded.


That was probably the only actually good part of No.6, which was pretty much a disaster otherwise.
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maaya



Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 976
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:52 am Reply with quote
HitokiriShadow wrote:
I mean, holy crap, all of the biggest yuri shows are sub-text only, at best. Maria-sama ga Miteru was pretty much the poster child for yuri for the late 2000s but its just sisterly/friend relationships with lesbian subtext (and one actual lesbian, but well....). And now there's freaking Yuru Yuri, the only "yuri" show in the past ~2 years. If not for Mouretsu Pirates and Horizon, the yuri scene would be a really depressing place these past few years.


There's also Aoi Hana (Sweet Blue Flowers), by the same author as Wandering Son, and Sasameki Koto. All of these aren't subtext-only and really good shows. Or Candy Boy, but I haven't seen that one. But I think none of them is anywhere as popular as Maria or Yuru Yuri. So maybe those are more what the readers are looking for ...
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:56 am Reply with quote
maaya wrote:


There's also Aoi Hana (Sweet Blue Flowers), by the same author as Wandering Son, and Sasameki Koto. All of these aren't subtext-only and really good shows. Or Candy Boy, but I haven't seen that one. But I think none of them is anywhere as popular as Maria or Yuru Yuri. So maybe those are more what the readers are looking for ...


Aoi Hana, while good, didn't really get very far (and the manga is still moving along glacially) and much the same can be said of the Sasameki Koto anime. Sasameki Koto's manga at least did (finally) end, though still not entirely available translated (scanlating slowly is preferred here).

Oh yeah and they were massive flops. Along with Hourou Musuko. Which sucks, but what can you do?
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Vata Raven



Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 710
Location: TN
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:02 am Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
Vata Raven wrote:

Hell, I read that guys won't even watch No.6 because they looked up that the two leads kiss...that's is pretty closed-minded.

That was probably the only actually good part of No.6, which was pretty much a disaster otherwise.

I love No.6, I already knew is was based off a light novel, and I love the English VA for Rat (Sentai used a lesser used actor for him). In fact, I picked it up because of the shonen-ai label it was given on ANN. Might seem sad I go for the small stuff like that, but I'll take what I can take. I'm still waiting for Funi or Sentai to pick up Betrayal Knows My Name.
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jymmy



Joined: 11 Nov 2011
Posts: 1244
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:00 am Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:

On the flip side, Soul Eater and Fullmetal Alchemist go off the tracks halfway through once the anime-only stuff takes over, while other shows, like Naruto and Fairy Tail, can incorporate their anime-only stuff into being intertwined and connected to the stuff adapted from the manga and make it transition more naturally.

Flip side nothing, I enjoy the Naruto manga but am incapable of watching the anime because it's terrible. I disliked the anime-original ending to Blue Exorcist but found the rest of it highly enjoyable. If Fullmetal Alchemist had been done the same way as Dragonball Z the whole product would have been irrevocably terrible (at least compared to the way the franchise stands now).
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Shinn AsukaGSD



Joined: 16 Mar 2010
Posts: 32
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:49 am Reply with quote
Gundam 00 is by far the best gundam show to come out
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 13224
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:57 am Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
Also, how does it hurt you if someone thinks a girl is gay? Does that make her less enjoyable for you?


It's not that, but in my case I think I just had the unfortunate experience of being exposed to a lot of hardcore yuri shippers that would indeed attack me if I did not submit to what they believe to be true. Yeah, shippers like this exist regardless of sexuality of the pairing, but these yuri shippers went further, going so far as to try to make me ashamed to be a male who prefers straight coupling, that it's somehow wrong to be that way. That men are all worthless and unneeded in any sort of relationship.

Yes I understand homosexuals have and still do face such persecution, but 'paying the other side back' isn't the way to go about it. I doubt any of those shippers were actual lesbians anyways.

But like I said, I don't hate yuri or anything, I just don't prefer it. I discovered that before encountering those shippers so that only added to my pre-existing avoidance of it. I do mostly function under a "straight unless otherwise stated" mindset but it is hardly set in stone. So long as it's just subtext with no official confirmation I don't see the problem with people thinking whatever they'd like.
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Lynx Amali





PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:21 am Reply with quote
CrownKlown wrote:


No. Most people tend to think characters are lesbians unless stated otherwise. For christ sake every show or game I watch and play if two girls are close, bam school girl lesbians. A good example of this is Rita and Estelle from Vesperia. Rita is a girl who has been shunned her whole life, an outcast. She then becomes friendly with Estelle, who just has a sunny disposition. Instead of viewing them as best friends, or even she is my non blood sister, the first thing I hear is zomg they have to discreet lesbians. And this happens in every dam show.

Let me tell you a secret, sometimes two girls or two guys are just really good friends.

And at the other person talking about Gravion, I would say Eiji is not the main character, he is at best a co main character with Toga, at worst he was a plot point to get the story moving. A lot of the focus of the series is on the humanizing of Toga and Eiji is just plot point used to demonstrate this. How the hell could you like Eiji anyway? He was some unskilled pompous little punk who would resort to violence first thing something didn't go his way. Frankly the show could have done fine without him, but then they would have no one to pilot the leg.

1) A crack pairing and maybe a little bit of sub-text, actually. Rita and Estelle definitely have chemistry together. Besides, Yuri has more chemistry with Judith, not to mention Ristelle is sorta cute. At least, IMO. Of course, shippers gonna ship.

2) Eiji is the main character though. The driving force behind Gravion is Eiji's search for his sister. Had that not happened initially, well, there wouldn't be a show. Touga learning emotions is primarily a sub-plot, albeit one that goes over the course of both the original and Zwei, similar to Sara's getting over the loss of a loved one (not saying who, it's a spoiler) from the original Dancougar.

Quote:
How the hell could you like Eiji anyway? He was some unskilled pompous little punk who would resort to violence first thing something didn't go his way.


Shinobu from Dancougar was like that initially too. Kouichi from Linebarrels, Apollo (Silvia and Sirius too!) from Aquarion, Domon from G Gundam, and Shinn from SEED Destiny. Your point? That's actually a pretty common character development in mecha shows, if not slightly over-used.
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Hopeless Wanderer



Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 8
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:35 am Reply with quote
jymmy wrote:
Hopeless Wanderer wrote:
I'm not big fan of the moe genre at all (okay it's not so much as genre as it's more an art-style)

Moe is a subjective audience reaction. A "moe show" is one that tries to produce this effect and "moe traits" are those that are found to produce the effect.
Oh, and while we're being pedantic, mahou shoujo is a genre (anime about (magical) girls), shoujo is a demographic (anime made for girls). Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura (plus the many older classics) are both, Revolutionary Girl Utena is the latter and Madoka is the former.

Well I learned something new today. Again I wasn't trying to be mean. If I was, I'm very sorry. Embarassed
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:20 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:

It's not that, but in my case I think I just had the unfortunate experience of being exposed to a lot of hardcore yuri shippers that would indeed attack me if I did not submit to what they believe to be true. Yeah, shippers like this exist regardless of sexuality of the pairing, but these yuri shippers went further, going so far as to try to make me ashamed to be a male who prefers straight coupling, that it's somehow wrong to be that way. That men are all worthless and unneeded in any sort of relationship.


Oh please, this is just riduculous. Unless a bunch of yuri fans stood over you and phiscially beat you, this is complete, exaggerated bullshit.

Also, those last couple lines are definitely starting to veer into "oh but what about us poor oppressed straight maaaaaales" territory, which if you were doing that in a place where a lot of yuri fans gather, might explain why they found you irritating.

There are relatively few places online where yuri shippers are the majority, so I have a distinct feeling that your recounting of events is...lets say less than entirely objective, and in fact you brought most of that abuse on yourself.

Quote:
Yes I understand homosexuals have and still do face such persecution, but 'paying the other side back' isn't the way to go about it. I doubt any of those shippers were actual lesbians anyways.


Yes, because only lesbians could possibly think that positive depictions of female homosexuality in media are a good thing.

Quote:
So long as it's just subtext with no official confirmation I don't see the problem with people thinking whatever they'd like.


Except for the part where you slammed the entire genre due to the (alleged) actions of a few shippers. So pardon me if I find your position a little hard to follow.

So, out of curiosity, where were you when these mean yuri-shippers abused you?
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 13224
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:53 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
Oh please, this is just riduculous. Unless a bunch of yuri fans stood over you and phiscially beat you, this is complete, exaggerated bullshit.


Because cyber bullying doesn't happen?

Fencedude5609 wrote:
Also, those last couple lines are definitely starting to veer into "oh but what about us poor oppressed straight maaaaaales" territory, which if you were doing that in a place where a lot of yuri fans gather, might explain why they found you irritating.

There are relatively few places online where yuri shippers are the majority, so I have a distinct feeling that your recounting of events is...lets say less than entirely objective, and in fact you brought most of that abuse on yourself.


Obviously I avoided the dedicated yuri fan sites, but even in places that are supposed to be just general series discussion if I so much as mentioned a certain male character's name a shitstorm would often follow. If not that I'd get hounded by PMs, my posts would get reported, etc.

Fencedude5609 wrote:
Yes, because only lesbians could possibly think that positive depictions of female homosexuality in media are a good thing.


That's not what I was saying at all. These people that would come at me would act like I was commiting some sort of hate crime, that I was homophobic, and that by liking a straight pairing I was some how setting back gay rights by years. They treated me like I was offending homosexuals everywhere but it's likely they weren't even homosexuals themselves so how would they even know?

Fencedude5609 wrote:
Except for the part where you slammed the entire genre due to the (alleged) actions of a few shippers. So pardon me if I find your position a little hard to follow.


Where, exactly, is the part where I slammed the entire genre? Like I said, I don't prefer it and I tend not to watch yuri shows unless it has something else going for it. I formed this opinion long before I encountered the unpleasent yuri fans, it's just that they definitely didn't help matters.

Fencedude5609 wrote:
So, out of curiosity, where were you when these mean yuri-shippers abused you?


On the internet, obviously Laughing It's been awhile since I've had any real issues with it anyways so it's pretty much all in the past. Doesn't make for pleasent memories, though, but there were plenty of yuri fans that I did get along with, which is why I've been making sure to clarify that only some fans were the problem.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:03 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Because cyber bullying doesn't happen?


Don't you even dare try to equate this with actual cyber bullying.

Quote:
Obviously I avoided the dedicated yuri fan sites, but even in places that are supposed to be just general series discussion if I so much as mentioned a certain male character's name a shitstorm would often follow. If not that I'd get hounded by PMs, my posts would get reported, etc.


That probably depends on the male character in question, and the larger context of the discussion at hand.


Quote:
That's not what I was saying at all. These people that would come at me would act like I was commiting some sort of hate crime, that I was homophobic, and that by liking a straight pairing I was some how setting back gay rights by years. They treated me like I was offending homosexuals everywhere but it's likely they weren't even homosexuals themselves so how would they even know?


Not knowing what pairing we're discussing does make this somewhat difficult to discuss, but your assertion that they clearly weren't homosexual themselves, and thus had no standing to complain, is pretty horrible.

Quote:
On the internet, obviously Laughing It's been awhile since I've had any real issues with it anyways so it's pretty much all in the past. Doesn't make for pleasent memories, though, but there were plenty of yuri fans that I did get along with, which is why I've been making sure to clarify that only some fans were the problem.


Yes, but you started this discussion by complaining about the GENRE, not the fans.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 13224
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:50 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
Not knowing what pairing we're discussing does make this somewhat difficult to discuss, but your assertion that they clearly weren't homosexual themselves, and thus had no standing to complain, is pretty horrible.


I didn't mean it like that. It's just they probably shouldn't act like they're a member of the offended group and fancy themselves a champion of the cause. If homosexuals had a problem with it they don't need others to voice their complaints for them.

Fencedude5609 wrote:
Yes, but you started this discussion by complaining about the GENRE, not the fans.


No, I started it by saying that I get yuri as a genre, but I don't get certain fans' attitudes about it.
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