Forum - View topic
Otakon 2009 - Fansubs and Industry panel


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Greed1914



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 1335

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:24 pm Reply with quote
Kimiko_0 wrote:
It's good to read that both the Japanese makers and N-American distributors want to make anime available in Europe as well. I hope they don't get too hung up on translating into every language. Most Europeans are used to reading subtitles already, and have English as their second language, so just getting the English subbed version of an anime would be enough, at least for a start.


I was pleased to hear that too. If nothing else it means that some companies are really looking to get the simulcasts to transcend boundaries, which is crucial. The most legitimate argument for downloading fansubs over the commercial streaming is that it isn't available everywhere. If that happens, then I think we'll see a real dent in fansubs because I believe that most people honestly want to take the legal option.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DomFortress



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 751
Location: Richmond BC, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:28 pm Reply with quote
Greed1914 wrote:
Kimiko_0 wrote:
It's good to read that both the Japanese makers and N-American distributors want to make anime available in Europe as well. I hope they don't get too hung up on translating into every language. Most Europeans are used to reading subtitles already, and have English as their second language, so just getting the English subbed version of an anime would be enough, at least for a start.


I was pleased to hear that too. If nothing else it means that some companies are really looking to get the simulcasts to transcend boundaries, which is crucial. The most legitimate argument for downloading fansubs over the commercial streaming is that it isn't available everywhere. If that happens, then I think we'll see a real dent in fansubs because I believe that most people honestly want to take the legal option.
So would I, which brings us back to the reasoning behind the Fansub and Industry panel yet again. For we can see that the two groups are no longer going against each other but instead, the two seem to be coexisting on either side of the law. With fansub groups still infringing copyright laws by illegally distributing copyrighted intellectual properties online, while the anime industry are competing with speedy online streaming distributions of their own properties.

Now let's take the current situation and project it into the future, and predict just how well that will play out. Keep in mind that the current business model of the Japanese animation industry is that the anime intellectual properties' copyrights belong to the anime studios, with anime licensing rights belong to the Japanese distributors, who are also the producers that funded the anime production projects thanks to collective corporate ownerships on the anime studios, and subcontracting existing original intellectual properties through third party advertisement companies. Everything is still well within legal conduct of a free-market, as according to civil laws that prevents a monopoly of single ownership.

However, an economic monopoly can still be possible when everyone is doing the exact same thing, every single time, for as long as they could. For this will create the state where a lack of economic competition for the good or service that they provide and a lack of viable substitute goods; aka monopoly due to over-consumption.

In short, what we see here are merely smokescreens and self-entitlements from both the legal and illegal side of anime distributors. When both of them are simply distributing the same goods of anime TV screenings, providing the same semi post-production services, and are all spiking up the internet bandwidth via online distributions. Now if this keeps up, who's gonna paid for the bandwidth fees for hosting all those online anime? And with what? The fansub groups won't pay for anything that they took, so there goes that idea. The ISP might just up the service charge and hopefully, redistribute the bandwidth cost among the end users. The anime distributors OTOH, might just find that their online streaming licensing cost will come right back and bite their collective corporate behinds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
DomFortress



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 751
Location: Richmond BC, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:45 am Reply with quote
getfresh wrote:
dom, you are such a dipshit as always >.>
Do you have distribution rights of all the fansubs that you worked on? If not, then at the very least do stay on topic while keep the unjustified name-calling to the minimum. For I was merely being critical on both parties, not wrong.

If you want to raise a fair argument, then focus on my strategy. That will keep things civil while being constructive, just like how you tried to justify stealing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 2603

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:57 am Reply with quote
I seriously groan to reply to your ranting about how fansubs-are-t3h-evil and streaming and prevention of a so-called "monopoly" and... I don't know what you're trying to say..

DomFortress wrote:
Now let's take the current situation and project it into the future, and predict just how well that will play out. Keep in mind that the current business model of the Japanese animation industry is that the anime intellectual properties' copyrights belong to the anime studios, with anime licensing rights belong to the Japanese distributors, who are also the producers that funded the anime production projects thanks to collective corporate ownerships on the anime studios, and subcontracting existing original intellectual properties through third party advertisement companies. Everything is still well within legal conduct of a free-market, as according to civil laws that prevents a monopoly of single ownership.


I'm not sure why you think this is a good thing, because it's not at all.
Unlike what you said, the studios don't even own their own work as all of the IP belongs to the production committees and sponsors. They have effectively bought them from the beginning. This is the reason why despite a huge budget and costs involved (marketing, broadcasting, sponsors, lots of middlemen, licensing), that the creators get paid jack (e.g. 16% of budget) and get no royalties.
I think you're also abusing the term "monopoly".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DomFortress



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 751
Location: Richmond BC, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:20 am Reply with quote
configspace wrote:
I seriously groan to reply to your ranting about how fansubs-are-t3h-evil and streaming and prevention of a so-called "monopoly" and... I don't know what you're trying to say..

DomFortress wrote:
Now let's take the current situation and project it into the future, and predict just how well that will play out. Keep in mind that the current business model of the Japanese animation industry is that the anime intellectual properties' copyrights belong to the anime studios, with anime licensing rights belong to the Japanese distributors, who are also the producers that funded the anime production projects thanks to collective corporate ownerships on the anime studios, and subcontracting existing original intellectual properties through third party advertisement companies. Everything is still well within legal conduct of a free-market, as according to civil laws that prevents a monopoly of single ownership.


I'm not sure why you think this is a good thing, because it's not at all.
Unlike what you said, the studios don't even own their own work as all of the IP belongs to the production committees and sponsors. They have effectively bought them from the beginning. This is the reason why despite a huge budget and costs involved (marketing, broadcasting, sponsors, lots of middlemen, licensing), that the creators get paid jack (e.g. 16% of budget) and get no royalties.
I think you're also abusing the term "monopoly".
If what you said is true, then the Japanese collective corporate distributors just violated their Japanese civil laws by creating a monopolized ownerships over the Japanese anime industry. And the fact is, Sunrise only owns the copyrights of the various Gundam TV series, yet it's still Bandai who owns the distribution rights of licensing the Gundam franchise. Otherwise, just who to you think that's responsible for the Gundam 30th anniversary celebration? Or have you forgotten all about the "subcontracting existing original intellectual properties through third party advertisement companies"?

And just as you stated in the beginning of your post: "I don't know what you're trying to say..", the next best thing for you to do should therefore to ask questions about clarifying my points to you. Not going about saying stuffs that either don't make sense and/or full of holes in their logic. I didn't said anything about either one party being evil, when that's all in your head. All I managed to do was presenting a critical analysis on the big picture. That's neither positive nor negative, when I was merely being constructive.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
crilix



Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:40 am Reply with quote
DomFortress wrote:
If what you said is true, then the Japanese collective corporate distributors just violated their Japanese civil laws by creating a monopolized ownerships over the Japanese anime industry.
What he said is pretty much true by some projections (obviously figures differ from one corporate system to another), however the fact that you stated this means that you have no idea how business works in Japan. I'd honestly like an in-depth explanation of your point about monopolies myself because I, too, have no idea what the hell you're trying to say. o_0
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
truth2belief



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:33 am Reply with quote
Thank Aegisub for that wonderful program.

I actually have a suggestion for streaming sites. Why not stream the raw and also stream the subtitles seperately so that a custom website player can play the video for the viewer at whatever language instead of having to hardsub each video in each language. It'll be easier to edit and fix, too. I know how much fancy karaoke subtitles take a lot of CPU, especially because of what I do. But why not have pre-rendered subtitles that can be loaded seperately and played atop the actual video(having a transparent background and just the words)?

As a anime fansub translator, timer, translator checker, typesetter, karaoke, editor, encoder; a manga TL and editor; a artist and website designer, I find a lot of what they say as just wrong. Who says a translator can't time. Well, I'm one of the few people that know the whole ropes of fansubbing from beginning to end, but still... In fact, there was a time when another translator in the group translated the whole anime (nicely too) but the rest of the group had problems timing because they couldn't do their job of putting in the translations into the timings because they didn't know what was said at the time. Anyways, an editor can fix the times for the subtitles anyways afterwards. Not to mention, I don't time that badly as to make the timings off synch or too long. All the projects of my groups are checked many, many times so that our viewers don't hate our subs. Well, maybe it's because my group has higher standards...

Also, being a part of *removed, no linking to download sites, no matter how ethical* (among other groups), I find it hard to believe how they negatively talk about that site. It's loved by many and they don't have a single licensed anime for download. If you had bad responses, I think it's because you posted the your request to take them off the site in the wrong place. Our members like our site and tend to be a bit mad when you say you can't watch what they want. You have to request to the right person.

However, I agree with the man from Dattebayo. When those people get too persistant, it really gets so annoying you wish that person were right in front of you to punch.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GWOtaku



Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:08 am Reply with quote
DomFortress wrote:


In short, what we see here are merely smokescreens and self-entitlements from both the legal and illegal side of anime distributors. When both of them are simply distributing the same goods of anime TV screenings, providing the same semi post-production services, and are all spiking up the internet bandwidth via online distributions. Now if this keeps up, who's gonna paid for the bandwidth fees for hosting all those online anime? And with what? The fansub groups won't pay for anything that they took, so there goes that idea. The ISP might just up the service charge and hopefully, redistribute the bandwidth cost among the end users. The anime distributors OTOH, might just find that their online streaming licensing cost will come right back and bite their collective corporate behinds.


Come now, do you really think that the industry would go through all of this if it were causing them to hemorrhage money? You're overlooking the reality that R1 legal streaming is ad-supported.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
samuelp



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 1486
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:35 am Reply with quote
truth2belief wrote:
Thank Aegisub for that wonderful program.

I actually have a suggestion for streaming sites. Why not stream the raw and also stream the subtitles seperately so that a custom website player can play the video for the viewer at whatever language instead of having to hardsub each video in each language. It'll be easier to edit and fix, too. I know how much fancy karaoke subtitles take a lot of CPU, especially because of what I do. But why not have pre-rendered subtitles that can be loaded seperately and played atop the actual video(having a transparent background and just the words)?

That's exactly what Crunchyroll does. Almost all subs on crunchyroll are soft subtitles that can be turned off.
And it's capable of having multiple, selectable subtitle streams, too, in different languages, although getting rights worked out is very difficult. There are a few shows with subs in multiple languages, though, like Time of Eve.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
DomFortress



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 751
Location: Richmond BC, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:58 am Reply with quote
crilix wrote:
DomFortress wrote:
If what you said is true, then the Japanese collective corporate distributors just violated their Japanese civil laws by creating a monopolized ownerships over the Japanese anime industry.
What he said is pretty much true by some projections (obviously figures differ from one corporate system to another), however the fact that you stated this means that you have no idea how business works in Japan. I'd honestly like an in-depth explanation of your point about monopolies myself because I, too, have no idea what the hell you're trying to say. o_0
And yet what projection is but another smokescreen and self-entitlement? Only my projection on monopolizing is based on critical literacy, not mathematics. And the fact that you're asking me to clarify something that you claimed that I knew nothing about, is a clear indication that you're not thinking straight.

Don't ask for things that's not even there, especially something imaginary like numbers and figures in economy, when they can be manually tampered and artificially inflated, in order to show you something that's not real.

GWOtaku wrote:
Come now, do you really think that the industry would go through all of this if it were causing them to hemorrhage money? You're overlooking the reality that R1 legal streaming is ad-supported.
It's their only saving grace that legal streaming is indeed ad-supported. And the fact that the anime industry are keeping streaming quality at a minimum is a clear indication that just how much online ad-supports really helps, unlike TV ad-supports. Finally, we are getting what the anime industry bargained for to put on Japanese TV for the first time; minimum quality Japanese animation with minimum post-production services, for all anime fan. When some anime fans just refuse to pay for what they want to watch no matter what.

truth2belief wrote:
Thank Aegisub for that wonderful program.

As a anime fansub translator, timer, translator checker, typesetter, karaoke, editor, encoder; a manga TL and editor; a artist and website designer, I find a lot of what they say as just wrong....All the projects of my groups are checked many, many times so that our viewers don't hate our subs. Well, maybe it's because my group has higher standards...

Also, being a part of *removed* (among other groups), I find it hard to believe how they negatively talk about that site. It's loved by many and they don't have a single licensed anime for download. If you had bad responses, I think it's because you posted the your request to take them off the site in the wrong place. Our members like our site and tend to be a bit mad when you say you can't watch what they want. You have to request to the right person.

However, I agree with the man from Dattebayo. When those people get too persistant, it really gets so annoying you wish that person were right in front of you to punch.
Due to your smokes and mirrors, you sure did more than to blur out the big picture that your website is actively hosting stolen intellectual properties that aren't yours to begin with. It's no wonder that those who didn't buy into your shallowness and vanity, can clearly see that you're just a thieve who claims to have a higher standard among other thieves. Well allow me to be the one to say "thank you man", for now I'm gonna break you down piece by piece with your own words. Just like how Dr. Uwe Bull did to those internet film critics 3 years ago.

But your smokescreens and self-entitlement had simply shown us that your website, your works, and yourself included, were nothing more than an indication that you don't have the balls to do something original, when you're this fake with a big face. Therefore I'm done with you now, and we'll just be on our separate ways.

However, if you want to, look me up and invite me to have you personally express yourself properly. And then perhaps we shall see just how much weight are packed in your words, or punchlines, or punches.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
crilix



Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:37 pm Reply with quote
DomFortress wrote:
Don't ask for things that's not even there, especially something imaginary like numbers and figures in economy, when they can be manually tampered and artificially inflated, in order to show you something that's not real.
I think you need to put down your tin foil hat. There are leaked (read: unintentionally) production figures out there (see: Bamboo Blade) from which you can do the math and come up with what's been said earlier. When I say that you have no idea how business works in Japan, I mean that you're overlooking reality. You're binded by your precious literacy. Written laws don't mean much when you have a nation full of corporate systems whose power standings are based on some sort of monopoly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zanarkand princess



Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 1484

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:06 pm Reply with quote
DomFortress wrote:
.

However, if you want to, look me up and invite me to have you personally express yourself properly. And then perhaps we shall see just how much weight are packed in your words, or punchlines, or punches.

He's back. And with more threats too! Rolling Eyes
Seriously what are you even talking about?
It's not some huge conspiracy..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DomFortress



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 751
Location: Richmond BC, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:28 pm Reply with quote
crilix wrote:
DomFortress wrote:
Don't ask for things that's not even there, especially something imaginary like numbers and figures in economy, when they can be manually tampered and artificially inflated, in order to show you something that's not real.
I think you need to put down your tin foil hat. There are leaked (read: unintentionally) production figures out there (see: Bamboo Blade) from which you can do the math and come up with what's been said earlier. When I say that you have no idea how business works in Japan, I mean that you're overlooking reality. You're binded by your precious literacy. Written laws don't mean much when you have a nation full of corporate systems whose power standings are based on some sort of monopoly.
So where are those figures now, when they are just as pointless now as they were "unintentionally" leaked before? Aren't you the one who's looking for something out of nothing, when you don't have anything to backup your claim? At least my literacy was based on people's words, which are much easier to read than numbers and charts and, your so called "tin-foil" metaphor.

Stop blowing off steams with your smokes and mirrors. If you know how the Japanese label business works, then out with it, or not. The choice is yours.

zanarkand princess wrote:
DomFortress wrote:
.

However, if you want to, look me up and invite me to have you personally express yourself properly. And then perhaps we shall see just how much weight are packed in your words, or punchlines, or punches.

He's back. And with more threats too! Rolling Eyes
Seriously what are you even talking about?
It's not some huge conspiracy..
At least I wasn't the one who started it. Wink And just like nobody asked for my return, I invited myself in, so you can thank me later. Rolling Eyes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
crilix



Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:04 pm Reply with quote
Can subscribers get banned for being not-so-nice-people? =) (haha, nice word filter)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
truth2belief



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:12 pm Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:
That's exactly what Crunchyroll does. Almost all subs on crunchyroll are soft subtitles that can be turned off.
And it's capable of having multiple, selectable subtitle streams, too, in different languages, although getting rights worked out is very difficult. There are a few shows with subs in multiple languages, though, like Time of Eve.

Sorry, didn't know they did that because I prefer to see non-streamed videos. Interesting to know, though. Crunchyroll sure is getting more and more advanced than before. I'm surprised that they can make enough from the ad revenue. They really outdone themselves.

DomFortress wrote:
But your smokescreens and self-entitlement had simply shown us that your website, your works, and yourself included, were nothing more than an indication that you don't have the balls to do something original, when you're this fake with a big face. Therefore I'm done with you now, and we'll just be on our separate ways.

Please don't criticize a group for trying to not step on any distributors foots. There are groups that stop when an anime get licensed. I mean, you have to give a reason, which isn't stated. And also, unoriginal? A fansub group just fansubs... what else? However, if you're talking about fansubs verses licensed groups, I won't argue with you there. I know how the anime industry wants to grow and needs the revenue, so I'll won't fight with someone full of eagerness to fight...you win.

Wouldn't anyone agree that in the end, it all boils down to money? distributors are bogged down by fansubbers and that's what they have to compete with. When a fansubber does it for enjoyment and a real translator has to get paid for it, the distributor has to find a way to be original and have a good quality at the same time. I assume that those distributors will make it own the industry in certain areas of the world. If they don't own the industry, they'll be bogged down by all the other groups. Since I'm not an economist, I can't say anything if that's a monopoly or what not, but it'll be hard for one or more distributors if ALL the anime doesn't become licensed within an area.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 3 of 6

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group