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Otakon 2009 - Fansubs and Industry panel


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DomFortress



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 751
Location: Richmond BC, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:51 pm Reply with quote
crilix wrote:
Can subscribers get banned for being not-so-nice-people? =) (haha, nice word filter)
I find telling the truth beats telling lies to people, while pretending to be nice to them by being bias. Or is that what we called being "politically correct" these days? Razz

truth2belief wrote:
Please don't criticize a group for trying to not step on any distributors foots. There are groups that stop when an anime get licensed. I mean, you have to give a reason, which isn't stated. And also, unoriginal? A fansub group just fansubs... what else? However, if you're talking about fansubs verses licensed groups, I won't argue with you there. I know how the anime industry wants to grow and needs the revenue, so I'll won't fight with someone full of eagerness to fight...you win.

Wouldn't anyone agree that in the end, it all boils down to money? distributors are bogged down by fansubbers and that's what they have to compete with. When a fansubber does it for enjoyment and a real translator has to get paid for it, the distributor has to find a way to be original and have a good quality at the same time. I assume that those distributors will make it own the industry in certain areas of the world. If they don't own the industry, they'll be bogged down by all the other groups. Since I'm not an economist, I can't say anything if that's a monopoly or what not, but it'll be hard for one or more distributors if ALL the anime doesn't become licensed within an area.
Can the fansub groups just not steal other distributors anime, not translate the anime without verifying their sources, not smearing other people's intellectual properties allover with their groups' names and logos? Or is that what they called it "not step on any distributors foots" because they're not asking money for disrespecting other people's intellectual properties with what they did to them?

And while we're at it, how about having the fansub groups pay for their hobbies of disrespecting other people's properties, by them forking up their illegal file hosting fees? Or is that too much of a responsibility to ask from a bunch of people with no sense of value, because they don't even value what they do as a hobby by them being responsible and respectful about it?

Nationality? Civil laws? Corporate ownerships? What's that got to do with those with no responsibility nor respect, when they're just a bunch of nobodies?

And wouldn't you look at that, I managed to talk smack and still ended up telling the truth. So you're welcome! Very Happy

Now listen up, the fansub groups did something obviously wrong and so did the anime industry in some regards. And that's why both are being dishonest with what they're doing all together. And since two wrongs never make a right in the real world, the only right thing to do with myself is to by-cut their goods and services altogether from the internet. And once again, you're welcome! Very Happy
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mudduck454



Joined: 29 Jul 2009
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:53 pm Reply with quote
well with out fansubbers. I would have never seen nor heard about toradora, and other shows. I think they provide a service to expose people to anime that we would not likely see otherwise....

I am willing and able to buy the complete collection of toradora, subbed only or with dubs, but companies like funimation do not understand that... so instead they keep beating a dead horse called drogonball Z and re-releasing old shows.... then the rightstuf is acually bringing some decent titles out soon, and bandia is the only one who brought a newer show to america withing months of it had finished airing new shows in japan, I have ordered Kannagi and preordered the other half of it. I never would have considered it before, but since I had seen the fansub version of it, I knew I would like it and I decided to buy the R1 DVDs

not many people buy a car without test driving it first, same with me on movies and DVDs, I want to see it before I decide to add it to my collection. so I go to movie theaters or rent it first and if I like it it makes it to my shelf with the rest of the DVDs I have,

but with anime we have no real way to watch all the new shows being put out, I would love to buy several new shows right now,
Toradora being one of them, Hatsukoi Limited is another, plus a lot more, and thanks to fan subs I was able to see them and know if I will like it or not, so now the ball is in funimations court and the other companies, they know there is demand for these shows, but they use the excuse that the japanese companies won't license, or they want too much money.....

I'm tired of companies like funimation thinking they know what we want, and saying here you go.
I have even gotten a letter from one company( I wont name them) stating that they will not license a show for America if it has been fansubbed, Bullcrap, every show that is being brought to America has a fansub floating around the net somewhere....

if they want my money... they need to find a way to bring me newer shows, not shows that are 5 years and older. as of right now I feel bandia is on the right track but they need more new titles, and when the other companies see that it works, maybe they will follow
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DomFortress



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 751
Location: Richmond BC, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:27 pm Reply with quote
mudduck454 wrote:
well with out fansubbers. I would have never seen nor heard about toradora, and other shows. I think they provide a service to expose people to anime that we would not likely see otherwise....

I am willing and able to buy the complete collection of toradora, subbed only or with dubs, but companies like funimation do not understand that... so instead they keep beating a dead horse called drogonball Z and re-releasing old shows.... then the rightstuf is acually bringing some decent titles out soon, and bandia is the only one who brought a newer show to america withing months of it had finished airing new shows in japan, I have ordered Kannagi and preordered the other half of it. I never would have considered it before, but since I had seen the fansub version of it, I knew I would like it and I decided to buy the R1 DVDs

not many people buy a car without test driving it first, same with me on movies and DVDs, I want to see it before I decide to add it to my collection. so I go to movie theaters or rent it first and if I like it it makes it to my shelf with the rest of the DVDs I have,

but with anime we have no real way to watch all the new shows being put out, I would love to buy several new shows right now,
Toradora being one of them, Hatsukoi Limited is another, plus a lot more, and thanks to fan subs I was able to see them and know if I will like it or not, so now the ball is in funimations court and the other companies, they know there is demand for these shows, but they use the excuse that the japanese companies won't license, or they want too much money.....

I'm tired of companies like funimation thinking they know what we want, and saying here you go.
I have even gotten a letter from one company( I wont name them) stating that they will not license a show for America if it has been fansubbed, Bullcrap, every show that is being brought to America has a fansub floating around the net somewhere....

if they want my money... they need to find a way to bring me newer shows, not shows that are 5 years and older. as of right now I feel bandia is on the right track but they need more new titles, and when the other companies see that it works, maybe they will follow
The tired old "try it before you buy it" scheme, thereby giving the Japanese anime industry a false incentive of "if there are people watching it out there, no matter how, and then they said they will buy them, no matter what." And what good did that do?

Over-consumption on character based merchandises, not anime. When anime itself became this animated pay-advertisement broadcasting on Japanese mass-medias networks. Made of borrowed licenses on existing original intellectual properties. Suddenly, every single Japanese corporate business are exploiting the Japanese anime studios to make animated pay-advertisements of their own independent labels. While they've got you to fork up the bills for one series after another series of paid animated advertisements, which are still being produced at 3 frames per second. Thank you man! Very Happy
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Chirico`Cuvie



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:51 am Reply with quote
Talk about thread hijacking...

Anyway, I was really happy to learn that the number of titles released on Blu-ray is going to increase, even if it's a slow increase. Looking forward to Casshern SINS in particular.
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pigoz



Joined: 30 Jul 2009
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:49 am Reply with quote
who is the guy a the center with the hat? (not the guy with the strange hat, the other one who sat down a bit after the talk started). He is so fun, and has great points on karaoke and bad typesetting in official dvd/bd releases.
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Ktimene's Lover



Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 2242
Location: Glendale, AZ (Proudly living in the desert)

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:19 am Reply with quote
It doesn't matter what the fansubbers say (and I can speak because I watch them), fansubbing is illegal. I don't deny that they give potential for shows to be licensed after they stole it. The leaking scandal will be haunting Funimation's relationship with our Japanese buddies for a long time.
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Chirico`Cuvie



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:03 am Reply with quote
pigoz wrote:
who is the guy a the center with the hat? (not the guy with the strange hat, the other one who sat down a bit after the talk started). He is so fun, and has great points on karaoke and bad typesetting in official dvd/bd releases.


That's getfresh, a retired-ish fansubber.
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Yoda117



Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 389

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:29 am Reply with quote
Ctimene's Lover wrote:
It doesn't matter what the fansubbers say (and I can speak because I watch them), fansubbing is illegal.


Not necessarily. In it's current form and usage, you're 100% right, but unfortunately too many people are still operating under the "by fans, for fans" premise which was pretty much invalidated by the NET Act of 1997. Not to down anyone in the industry, but I've yet to hear of a good argument that properly explained the laws (both international and those within the US, or whatever country the speaker is located in). On this board I've read some very knowledgable users explain these points better than any industry rep I've met thus far, and I hope the industry is listening.

On the other side of the coin, I've yet to hear of someone from the fansub community do the same to promote their own side of the case (i.e., explaining how they're trying to use "proof of concept" & seeking authorization to use new techniques and practices to prove to a studio/company how to do it better, etc.). Again, there are opportunities here for the industry to get some "free help" and up their game... might be worth giving it a shot, as both sides could potentially benefit.

Quote:
The leaking scandal will be haunting Funimation's relationship with our Japanese buddies for a long time.


Maybe. It depends on how they respond to it. If they merely react and patch the issue and move on, then you're probably right. However, if they take the opportunity to look at their existing policies and procedures, configuration and architecture, then incorporate a more secure framework and policy, they could leverage it to create something which could become part of their package to the studios they work with (i.e., "here is what we want to do with the license, and here is a relatively detailed architecture we plan to use to distribute and protect the content").

It's a common practice in industries where security is considered to be more than a passing fancy.

I'm not saying that it's a quick fix, or an easy one, but it's a smart way to take a negative, turn it into a positive, and possibly offer something new to their industry partners (I've never heard of anyone in the anime industry having that kind of organization or documentation before).

But that's just my $0.02 worth.
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The King of Harts



Joined: 05 May 2009
Posts: 6710
Location: Mount Crawford, Virginia

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:29 pm Reply with quote
I don't have a huge beef with fansubs because I watch them, but one thing I that bothers me is when I'm looking for a show and see all these shows that are licensed on the site. Just take down the show as soon as it gets licensed. If the industry and the fansubbers want to meet halfway, then I think a good step to take is to respect the licenses and remove any torrent of a show that has been officially announced as licensed. I really like it when groups stop subbing a show when it's been announced for legal streaming and I think the next step is to take down shows that have been licensed for DVD release.
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DomFortress



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 751
Location: Richmond BC, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:35 pm Reply with quote
Chirico`Cuvie wrote:
Talk about thread hijacking...

Anyway, I was really happy to learn that the number of titles released on Blu-ray is going to increase, even if it's a slow increase. Looking forward to Casshern SINS in particular.
It's called stay on topic by being focused, and here's how it works.

Why the push on an not-so-accessible Blu-ray technology, when the anime market is still too small to ensure industry survival, while recession is still upon us with no end in sight? Just how many percentage of entertainment media consumers are Blu-ray users? And out of those users, how many of those are actually anime fans who are willing to pay? Compare that to how many anime fans do collect anime DVD, and the current accessibility to of DVD technology, just which one of them is more advantage to maintain sustainability of the anime market, thereby ensuring the survival of a none-mainstream anime entertainment industry?

Think and compare before you buy, that's sound advice.

pigoz wrote:
who is the guy a the center with the hat? (not the guy with the strange hat, the other one who sat down a bit after the talk started). He is so fun, and has great points on karaoke and bad typesetting in official dvd/bd releases.
And pretty much beating on a dead horse, while still feeling bitter about the anime industry by him being so negative. That's so not cool of him being narrow-minded, when the anime industry tried to avoid the subject altogether because of people like getfresh.

Bullies are bullies because of who they are at what they do for fun. So is that what fansub groups are in the end?

Ctimene's Lover wrote:
It doesn't matter what the fansubbers say (and I can speak because I watch them), fansubbing is illegal. I don't deny that they give potential for shows to be licensed after they stole it. The leaking scandal will be haunting Funimation's relationship with our Japanese buddies for a long time.
There's the critical thinking I'm talking about. That "prank" on the FUNimation part done by some negative individuals will have nothing but negative impacts on the future survival of anime industry overall.

Revenges are born of hatred, that kind of negativity needs to stop.

Yoda117 wrote:
Ctimene's Lover wrote:
It doesn't matter what the fansubbers say (and I can speak because I watch them), fansubbing is illegal.


Not necessarily. In it's current form and usage, you're 100% right, but unfortunately too many people are still operating under the "by fans, for fans" premise which was pretty much invalidated by the NET Act of 1997. Not to down anyone in the industry, but I've yet to hear of a good argument that properly explained the laws (both international and those within the US, or whatever country the speaker is located in). On this board I've read some very knowledgable users explain these points better than any industry rep I've met thus far, and I hope the industry is listening.

On the other side of the coin, I've yet to hear of someone from the fansub community do the same to promote their own side of the case (i.e., explaining how they're trying to use "proof of concept" & seeking authorization to use new techniques and practices to prove to a studio/company how to do it better, etc.). Again, there are opportunities here for the industry to get some "free help" and up their game... might be worth giving it a shot, as both sides could potentially benefit.

Quote:
The leaking scandal will be haunting Funimation's relationship with our Japanese buddies for a long time.


Maybe. It depends on how they respond to it. If they merely react and patch the issue and move on, then you're probably right. However, if they take the opportunity to look at their existing policies and procedures, configuration and architecture, then incorporate a more secure framework and policy, they could leverage it to create something which could become part of their package to the studios they work with (i.e., "here is what we want to do with the license, and here is a relatively detailed architecture we plan to use to distribute and protect the content").

It's a common practice in industries where security is considered to be more than a passing fancy.

I'm not saying that it's a quick fix, or an easy one, but it's a smart way to take a negative, turn it into a positive, and possibly offer something new to their industry partners (I've never heard of anyone in the anime industry having that kind of organization or documentation before).

But that's just my $0.02 worth.
Your second point is rather intriguing, I agree that is something that should be looking into, when people are willing to talk things over, instead of them being dishonest with each other by being politically correct.

Which brings us to your first point. The possibility of both the fansub groups and the anime industry to really sit down and talk things out, with a neutral third party mediating the discussion. I for one am done with them both trying to appeal to me, by them being bias and dishonest with their consumers and toward each other. In The Art of War, Sun Tzu said that "All warfare is based on deception". So when both the fansub groups and the anime industry are deceiving each other and their consumers, they're still at war against each other and therefore, misleading their anime fans. This will not ensure the survival of neither one of them, which is the reason why I stopped following both their leads online by not watching anime via the internet.

The King of Harts wrote:
I don't have a huge beef with fansubs because I watch them, but one thing I that bothers me is when I'm looking for a show and see all these shows that are licensed on the site. Just take down the show as soon as it gets licensed. If the industry and the fansubbers want to meet halfway, then I think a good step to take is to respect the licenses and remove any torrent of a show that has been officially announced as licensed. I really like it when groups stop subbing a show when it's been announced for legal streaming and I think the next step is to take down shows that have been licensed for DVD release.
But you see, in order for the fansub groups to actually do that, they'll need to have full control over their distribution network, which they don't. When true mastery of control is direction and flow, not prevention nor oppression.

The moment that the fansub groups released their fansubs via the internet, they've got no control over their fans' behaviorism and mannerisms and thus, the fansub groups can't do a thing to what their fans will do with their releases. They can't recall their products, when there's no physical format of their products. They don't run their groups like a business, when there's no direction nor flow as to what they're doing with their products.
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sdhd



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:42 pm Reply with quote
Thanks for sharing this video. I found the video to be informative and interesting at the same time.

I believe that with Blu-ray it is possible to have subtitles in both fansub and industry format. This should be the industry selling point for Blu-ray dvds.
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DomFortress



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 751
Location: Richmond BC, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:53 pm Reply with quote
sdhd wrote:
Thanks for sharing this video. I found the video to be informative and interesting at the same time.

I believe that with Blu-ray it is possible to have subtitles in both fansub and industry format. This should be the industry selling point for Blu-ray dvds.
So suddenly people need to have Blu-ray technology just to see different styles of texts on their HDTV, when post-production like English subtitling doesn't enhance the overall animation quality but instead, it simply distracts the viewers from watching the animation?

Ultimately, just what do you like the most? Better animation quality overall with great story elements that's truly worthy of a HD post-production treatment, or more blocks of texts? Confused Because if anime were made for fans like yourself, then it'll be made with dancing fonts allover the screen, as much as they could, as many types as they would, just like fansubs.
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tygerchickchibi



Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 1039

PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:47 am Reply with quote
Anime hyper I don't like dancing fonts. Icky.

I can sing the karaoke just fine without them.
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zanarkand princess



Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 1484

PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:56 am Reply with quote
Like the K-On karaoke that I thought was "creative" at first but then it got very, very annoying.
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DomFortress



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 751
Location: Richmond BC, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:01 am Reply with quote
zanarkand princess wrote:
Like the K-On karaoke that I thought was "creative" at first but then it got very, very annoying.
I have no means nor real needs to find out for myself, but I'll take your word on it. Wink
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