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Making History: The Rose of Versailles


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roseversailles



Joined: 13 Sep 2012
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Location: Washington, U.S.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:47 pm Reply with quote
This was a wonderful, informative article, especially for newcomers to the show. It really is the holy grail of anime (next to Legend of the Galactic Heroes)! What I really love about the portrayal of Oscar is that before being a female character, she's a good character. Her gender is not what defines her, but rather who she is, her beliefs, her passion, her weaknesses, and her desires. How many female characters can you actually say that about? How many have motives not influenced somehow by gender? I'd love to see the manga licensed, but that would be considerably more difficult than the anime to do, since it's Ikeda's baby. Perhaps an OST for the show, or some of Takarazuka performances? *One can hope* Another thing worth mention is Ikeda's portrayal of Marie Antoinette. As an ardent "historian" whose favorite subject is the ill-fated queen, Ikeda's Marie is one of the first noticeable portrayals (in any media) that is somewhat sympathetic. Sure, she's at times airheaded and facilitates her own downfall to some extent (a theory I don't support), but she's warm and human, with no disregard for her people or any of the "let them eat cake" type attitudes attributed to her. She's flawed, she can be annoying, but she is sympathetic, something I can't really say for any other representation of her I've seen in any mass media. This anime is a wonderful document of its time, with beautiful music, passionate writing, and a downright magnificent conclusion. Everyone should see this anime. I for one can't shut up about it.

Thank you, for forever, dearest RightStuf!

~On that note, I attacked them with a barrage of questions for Ikeda-sensei. Apologies in advance for my fervent fangirl-ism~
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Maidenoftheredhand



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:53 pm Reply with quote
I would assume getting the manga has licensed will depend a lot on the sales of the anime.

Well it's licensed in other parts of the world so I don't see it as impossible (after the anime has been licensed I don't believe anything is impossible anymore).

But I am really liking the sound of Viki becoming a streaming site for classic series. Although I love that CR has become a legal streaming site, one of the things I miss about it before it became legal was it was a great place to watch classic anime. In fact I am pretty sure that is where I originally watched Rose of Versailles.

And as for other classic series we need over here, LOGH is the next one that springs to mind. It's a bit longer than ROV but it needs a legal release here.
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gwern



Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:35 pm Reply with quote
Why was it so hard to license?
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niastyle



Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:12 pm Reply with quote
Cannot begin to say how utterly disappointed I am that Rose of Versailles will not be dubbed. Crying or Very sad

I already have a subbed version of the series, and love it to death. As I would watch it, I would dream of the day when I could watch, and truly enjoy it in english. (I hate subtitles) I was so ecstatic when I heard Rose was licensed. I even did a happy dance. But now I'm doing the disappointed shuffle, since my dream of seeing it in english has been killed forever.
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Ojamajo LimePie



Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 568

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:17 pm Reply with quote
gwern wrote:
Why was it so hard to license?


One rumor is that Ikeda-sensei heard about Sailor Moon's dub and feared that RoV would receive similar editing.
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:18 pm Reply with quote
Ojamajo LimePie wrote:
gwern wrote:
Why was it so hard to license?


One rumor is that Ikeda-sensei heard about Sailor Moon's dub and feared that RoV would receive similar editing.


hm, maybe the re-release of the Sailor Moon manga in it's uncut form might have change Ikeda-sensei's mind. Also I guess she must've found out older anime that's been previously edited is now getting uncut release (Voltron, Macross, and DBZ), and Toei's streaming uncut subtitled of their old-school anime (Captain Harlock, Galaxy Express 999, and Fist of the North Star) in the US.

Anyway, this is cool to hear. I wonder if someone from Discotek could do the same and explain how they were able to get Mazinger Z, and Cutey Honey.

Speaking of Sailor Moon, Toei, if you're reading this, please allow Sailor Moon anime to be license in USA and to get a uncut release, Kodansha already gave the manga a uncut release, and you allow Mazinger Z and Cutey Honey anime to be licensed in US, if you allow those 2 classic old school anime to USA, then what's the problem and why are you holding back on Sailor Moon's USA license. We are living in an age where anime are now being shown uncut (and can be watch on site like Youtube and Hulu). What happen back in the late 90's was different, but the past is the past, look at today's anime, a lot of anime that's been previously edited/censored are now getting uncut release.
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Chrno2



Joined: 28 May 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:07 pm Reply with quote
Great article. I'm really excited about this series being released here. Wow, I never knew that this series was never released in the US. Not even an edited version, surprising. Then again considering the material it would have had issues with US censors during that time. Good to see that in our changed times we can have the chance to view a piece of animated history. I hope that someone will be able to get the manga released. Even a kickstarter project will do.

Though I wonder why Ikeda may have been reluctant to allow this series to be available in the US.

I had sent an e-mail to Rightstuf inquiring on the price of the release, but I guess since much of the licensing info is pretty hush-hush then we won't know yet until it's close to being released. I wanted to get an estimate since this title will be on my list of "titles to buy" for our collection. Because I'm certain the professor here or someone is going to use it as part of their academia. I better hurry up and finish Utena because I'll need room to go back in time and work on this OS series. Looking forward to it.
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varmintx



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:46 pm Reply with quote
niastyle wrote:
Cannot begin to say how utterly disappointed I am that Rose of Versailles will not be dubbed. Crying or Very sad

I already have a subbed version of the series, and love it to death. As I would watch it, I would dream of the day when I could watch, and truly enjoy it in english. (I hate subtitles) I was so ecstatic when I heard Rose was licensed. I even did a happy dance. But now I'm doing the disappointed shuffle, since my dream of seeing it in english has been killed forever.
While not as disappointing as Emma never getting dubbed (I should hope the reason is obvious), yeah, I wish it was as well. But, I'm a realist, and the fact that it got licensed at all is more than I ever expected.

Is there still no chance of getting the already-made French dub?
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:58 pm Reply with quote
Danica wrote:
While relatively minor titles might more or less easily make their way overseas, it's been astounding to North American fans that such an influential title has remained off-limits to them. American anime fans see the influences of The Rose of Versailles constantly, though many don't know the details of The Rose of Versailles itself because the manga and the anime have been unavailable in English.


Obviously someone has never heard of fansubs.[/sarcasm]

The person who recommended the series to the person who recommended it to me did so after watching it using fansubs, and the person who recommended the series to me used fansubs, and I used fansubs when watching it too. One could argue that - just like with Legend of the Galactic Heroes - it was the fansubs that truly made this title as popular as it is amongst English-speakers. Therefore, if it hadn't been for the fansubs the demand would be so much less and the title may never have been licensed, because what ignorant fan would want to blind-buy a Shoujo title from 1979?

My point is, a brief mention of how fansubs played an important part in the popularity of Rose of Versailles would have been expected. Of course, the critical role that fansubs played in getting the title licensed might not have sat so well with the industry's anti-fansub stance, but facts are facts.
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angelmcazares
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Joined: 23 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:10 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
My point is, a brief mention of how fansubs played an important part in the popularity of Rose of Versailles would have been expected. Of course, the critical role that fansubs played in getting the title licensed might not have sat so well with the industry's anti-fansub stance, but facts are facts.


Of course, the industry would want to have an anti-fansub stance. What company want to lose money to pirating. Please, spare me the justification that fansubs can be positive for the anime industry.

I agree that fansubs made it possible for old series like The Rose of Versailles to become popular. But I do not expect the industry to ever acknowledge the beneficial side effects of fansubing.
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Saffire



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:11 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
[...]because what ignorant fan would want to blind-buy a Shoujo title from 1979?
This ignorant fan fully intends to, and I've seen several others besides. Most people know the show by reputation rather than because they've actually watched it. I don't think the comparison to LoGH is apt in this case, because RoV inspired an entire class of manga & anime that word of mouth could feed off of even in the absence of fansubs, whereas LoGH is mostly "just" famous for being awesome.
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roseversailles



Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Location: Washington, U.S.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:09 pm Reply with quote
If this is worth anything to the discussion over fansubs, I first saw the series through fansubs, and the quality was godawful. They were taken from a laserdisc taken from a copy of the master, filtered through some type of system that left the colors desaturated, the lines blurry, and the sound crackling. So, despite how fansubs got me to RoV, they're a bit like a broken down car trying to make its way on a cross country road trip while a Ferrari is next to you. By all means, I have also seen some wonderful fansubs, but this is RoV I'm talking about, and my experience with it. I've never had the chance to see LoGH, nor have I even encountered fansubs of it. All I know is the legend of it, carried by the wind from ole Japan~

Last edited by roseversailles on Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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dtm42



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:39 pm Reply with quote
Saffire wrote:
dtm42 wrote:
[...]because what ignorant fan would want to blind-buy a Shoujo title from 1979?
This ignorant fan fully intends to, and I've seen several others besides. Most people know the show by reputation rather than because they've actually watched it. I don't think the comparison to LoGH is apt in this case, because RoV inspired an entire class of manga & anime that word of mouth could feed off of even in the absence of fansubs, whereas LoGH is mostly "just" famous for being awesome.


But how do you even know about Rose of Versailles? Where does it get its reputation from? From people who have already watched it. Some of those people are natural French or Japanese speakers and so didn't use the fansubs. But many aren't and can thank fansubs for introducing them to a wonderful series that deserves to be widely appreciated.

angelmcazares wrote:
I agree that fansubs made it possible for old series like The Rose of Versailles to become popular. But I do not expect the industry to ever acknowledge the beneficial side effects of fansubing.


And that's my problem. The industry as a whole is so adamant in their beliefs that they won't even thank (or at least acknowledge) how fansubs can actually be good.

roseversailles wrote:
If this is worth anything to the discussion over fansubs, I first saw the series through fansubs, and the quality was godawful. They were taken from a laserdisc taken from a copy of the master, filtered through some type of system that left the colors desaturated, the lines blurry, and the sound crackling.


Eh, my fansubs were not too hot either in the technical side of things, but I didn't care.

roseversailles wrote:
So, despite how fansubs got me to RoV, they're a bit like a broken down car trying to make its way on a cross country road trip while a ferrati is next to you. By all means, I have also seen some wonderful fansubs, but this is RoV I'm talking about, and my experience with it.


There's no doubt that the official release will be of immensely superior technical quality, I won't disagree with you there.

But there was never a Ferrari (high-quality release) next to you as an alternative option to the low-quality fansubs. Not until now with the official release.

roseversailles wrote:
I've never had the chance to see LoGH, nor have I even encountered fansubs of it. All I know is the legend of it, carried by the wind from ole Japan~


They're actually really easy to find. Type "lotgh fansubs" into Google, you need look no further than the first page to find fansubs for the entire series.

Note that they also have issues with technical quality. But most people don't care about that, since they are watching for the show and not for the visual quality.

And if you are holding out for an official English release, good luck with that. When the series was sold in Japan it came in a monster boxset costing the equivalent of US$1,925.00. It was thought an R1 version could get away with 'only' US$1,700.00. I doubt many people nowadays can afford that . . .
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roseversailles



Joined: 13 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:15 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:


roseversailles wrote:
If this is worth anything to the discussion over fansubs, I first saw the series through fansubs, and the quality was godawful. They were taken from a laserdisc taken from a copy of the master, filtered through some type of system that left the colors desaturated, the lines blurry, and the sound crackling.


Eh, my fansubs were not too hot either in the technical side of things, but I didn't care.

roseversailles wrote:
So, despite how fansubs got me to RoV, they're a bit like a broken down car trying to make its way on a cross country road trip while a ferrati is next to you. By all means, I have also seen some wonderful fansubs, but this is RoV I'm talking about, and my experience with it.


There's no doubt that the official release will be of immensely superior technical quality, I won't disagree with you there.

But there was never a Ferrari (high-quality release) next to you as an alternative option to the low-quality fansubs. Not until now with the official release.

roseversailles wrote:
I've never had the chance to see LoGH, nor have I even encountered fansubs of it. All I know is the legend of it, carried by the wind from ole Japan~


They're actually really easy to find. Type "lotgh fansubs" into Google, you need look no further than the first page to find fansubs for the entire series.

Note that they also have issues with technical quality. But most people don't care about that, since they are watching for the show and not for the visual quality.

And if you are holding out for an official English release, good luck with that. When the series was sold in Japan it came in a monster boxset costing the equivalent of US$1,925.00. It was thought an R1 version could get away with 'only' US$1,700.00. I doubt many people nowadays can afford that . . .


I am now embarassed for my spelling error (I've never heard of a ferrati)! Wink Fixed it. As for your comments about the technical quality, I'm with you there. I didn't care how bad quality the picture was, so long as I could make out what was being said and have a general idea of going on. This is why a nice deluxe boxset from Nozomi is a dream come true. I have a few other fansubs that were of very good quality (Oniisama-e, Yami to Boushi), so I don't have anything against fansubs, though I definitely rush to buy the official release once it's out. If fans do that, companies shouldn't have such a grudge against fansubs, right? Is it that different from streaming through a site like CR? Well, I digress. I'll have to try that for LoGH; I'm always so wary about streaming and downloading since my last computer crashed due to a malware from a manga site. I'll just have to be careful and brandish my security software Smile
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:21 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
They're actually really easy to find. Type "lotgh fansubs" into Google, you need look no further than the first page to find fansubs for the entire series.

Note that they also have issues with technical quality. But most people don't care about that, since they are watching for the show and not for the visual quality.

And if you are holding out for an official English release, good luck with that. When the series was sold in Japan it came in a monster boxset costing the equivalent of US$1,925.00. It was thought an R1 version could get away with 'only' US$1,700.00. I doubt many people nowadays can afford that . . .


Well, there's the BluRay version, but it's only an upscale of the cleaned up DVD, which is a massive shame. I'll take the unfixed original animation in true 1080p over that any day. None of that affects the story, but I might as well see it with the sharpest lines possible. Still, what's available should be more than enough for those concerned that it'll resemble s 4th generation VHS or some such. The Golden Wings prequel OVA did get a proper BD though, so that should look spectacular. Someone really should try to license the LoGH films to test the waters of the fandom. There's no way they'd come with the same price tag as the main series, and they'd be quick and easy to get on the market. If they can get the GE999 films, they can do this. Hell, not only that, but both My Conquest is the Sea of Stars and Overture to a New War act as introductions with the main OVA, it's a perfect pick up.

As for the RoV fansubs, encoders work with what they get. Maybe all they had available were some LDrips, it's not like they intentionally made the series look bad to piss fans off. I've seen plenty of modern fansubs, in h.264 mkv packages, that still only have access to crappy old sources because no new transfers/masters exist yet.
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