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Kimi ni Todoke (TV).


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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:55 pm Reply with quote
MaxSouth wrote:
2) in shojo, not even guys seem to want sex.


No, the guys just want to rape the girls instead.

Your experience with Shoujo is pretty limited if you don't know about the huge subset where the main guy is extremely forceful and the lead girl must protect her chastity by all means necessary.
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Spastic Minnow
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Joined: 02 May 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:25 pm Reply with quote
AlanMintaka wrote:

Kazehaya is another matter. He doesn't have her affliction. All of Maxsouth's and my own older comments apply to him specifically.


Kazehaya has some sort of problem though, something that makes him draw away in his own fashion and something that had him abandoning baseball. It's hinted at multiple times with all that 'nobody knows me' sort of talk he does. That seems to be another feature of Shojou. The girl's issues are dealt with first and then it's her turn to help the seemingly confident and apparently almost perfect guy get through his problems. The thing is, these shows only seem to get around to adapting the part that deals with the girl.
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rheiders



Joined: 05 Jul 2011
Posts: 1137
Location: Colorful Colorado :)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:46 pm Reply with quote
MaxSouth wrote:
One of the annoying things in this anime, including second season, is that heroes use "sankyu" and other Anglicisms instead of actual words. I know that in some subset of young audience in Japan it is supposed to be "cool" to make a gibberish of their own language, but for anime to use it is so cheap. Authors, have some dignity, have some taste.

I suppose it's fair to find it a bit annoying since everyone has their pet peeves, but this seems strange as a genuine criticism of the show. This is how teenagers in Japan talk. They're not disrespecting their language or culture--it's just slang. It's exactly the same thing as if an American thanked someone by saying "gracias" or "danke schön", both of which I hear and use on a day-to-day basis. We understand these as foreign words, but when used in an English conversation, these are just more informal, friendly expressions of gratitude (and yes, there is some "foreign words are cool!" involved too xD). Same thing.
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AlanMintaka



Joined: 23 Oct 2011
Posts: 99
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:15 am Reply with quote
Spastic Minnow wrote:

Kazehaya has some sort of problem though, something that makes him draw away in his own fashion and something that had him abandoning baseball. It's hinted at multiple times with all that 'nobody knows me' sort of talk he does. That seems to be another feature of Shojou. The girl's issues are dealt with first and then it's her turn to help the seemingly confident and apparently almost perfect guy get through his problems. The thing is, these shows only seem to get around to adapting the part that deals with the girl.


Good points. I'll take a closer look at that. There's no question that the storyline accentuates the intensity of her social phobia - even her parents are invoked to express their joy that she even has friends as visitors in their house.

Kazehaya's background in that respect is much more ambiguous, no doubt about it. What's behind the "no one understands me" attitude, if nothing more than the usual teenage angst?

He at least has the ability to be somewhat aggressive, being the first the initiate even superficial contact with Sawako at the begining of the series. Also, he does have something of a socially interactive background that precedes the series. Yes, he withdrew from his baseball involvement - but he was there in the first place, taking that level of initiative. Sawako would certainly have not done something equivalent until he came along and inspired her to have more confidence in herself.

I think that regardless of the personal problems suggested in this series, Sawako's are definitely far beyond the scope of Kazehaya's difficulties. In the first few episodes, he at least knows how to say "Hello" and have a casual conversation with strangers. In Sawako's case he does so in a completely confident manner, easygoing and not at all unnerving. Sawako, on the other hand, reacts as though she's experienced a revelation of some kind.

That's a difference in personalities that suggests a much larger scope of social problems for Sawako.
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Spotlesseden



Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: earth
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:16 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
MaxSouth wrote:
2) in shojo, not even guys seem to want sex.


No, the guys just want to rape the girls instead.

Your experience with Shoujo is pretty limited if you don't know about the huge subset where the main guy is extremely forceful and the lead girl must protect her chastity by all means necessary.


rarely there are sex in shojo manga. josei manga have more.
IF you want real rape or sex, hentai manga is the way to go.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:25 pm Reply with quote
^
I wasn't talking about rape or sex, I was talking about attempted rape/sexual assault. Shoujo Manga has a lot of it.
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Spotlesseden



Joined: 09 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:45 pm Reply with quote
are you sure those are shojo manga? not josei?

I maybe couple of the, i wouldn't say alot of them. Most of the time are just the most popular guy try to tease the main girls. Not attempted rape.
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MaxSouth



Joined: 11 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:21 pm Reply with quote
Thanks everyone for the replies.

Before I could go in details on those, I have to say that I watched the first season a while back so I do not really remember what exactly has happened in it.

Specific events aside, I was sure that two protagonists had things figured out. But now as I watch the second season, I am wondering what the first season was about. Protagonists can not even talk to each other yet (again) and I do not really understand why. They spent the first season for that, is not it?

So, is it just me, or this story goes in rounds?


EDIT: the events remind me of TV "soap operas". Hell of perpetual misunderstandings for the sake of story "going".



Somebody, help me.
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MaxSouth



Joined: 11 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:05 am Reply with quote
AlanMintaka wrote:
Keep in mind that in addition to the cultural differences, a large portion of the target demographic in Japan consists of middle and high school students - pubescent teenagers who still live with their parents. They first see most of these series as "family-fare" TV shows broadcast by outlets like TBS (Tokyo Broadcasting System, or something like that).

Thus they're our rough equivalent to network TV series "suitable for family viewing." Granted, some network TV in the USA has gotten a little more liberal in the sex department since "Love, American Style". But here the shows specifically targeted to families is pretty much as morally strictured as Japanese family-fare anime.


This is exactly the problem. They keep instilling this fake morality over sex issue. Sex is perfectly normal for family viewing, no one's head will actually explode, but yet media moralists always talk about sex as if it is something bad like violence, which is totally nonsensical and opposite to reality.

Quote:
Try Hentai. It often goes to the other extreme, containing little more than sex (of all kinds). It's not the type of thing that TBS will typically broadcast during "family viewing" hours.


Hentai sometimes has naturalistic sex scenes. I actually have nothing against it as there is nothing indecent in any part of sex of human body. However, I am not asking that detailed sex scenes should necessary appear in a general, mass market anime like shonen or shojo -- the admission that sex exists and that it happens right through the series would be great progress in the fight against sex shaming.

Quote:
Right. Like middle schoolers who still live with their parents, and whose stories are being told in the "Family-Fare" genre to the same kinds of families. What would you expect?

Now I know that American high-schoolers, and possibly even middle schoolers, are a lot more promiscuous than they were decades ago. But that still doesn't mean you're going to see an accurate rendition of their behavior in "Family" TV shows.


In shonen genre, sometimes it is all right to make a sex references or a bit of sexual teasing, but actual sex never happens. The fact that authors play around the subject tells me that they are not actually chaste or "family-friendly", so the only thing that prohibits them from going away from those fake hypocritical "morals" is the default taboo on the issue.
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stardf29



Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 171
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:15 pm Reply with quote
MaxSouth wrote:
The thing I can easily complain about and still be fair:

1) in shonen, guys sometimes shown to want sex, but basically never allowed to have it because girls do not allow even if they pretend to want it for teasing purposes;

2) in shojo, not even guys seem to want sex.

Either way, status of sex as something "indecent" or, on the contrary, "sacred", is kept as firm as ever -- those "morals" are as fresh and modern as 19th Century.


Well, guess what: the "19th century" moral that sex is sacred is a moral that I still personally hold to, as do a significant portion of the current population of the U.S. and the rest of the world. The fact that "current humanistic ethics" has devalued sex into something common is, to me, rather pitiful; it's settling for something less than what it could really be.

But morals aside, I'm glad that there are series like Kimi ni Todoke where sex doesn't play a part. Because, news flash: there's more to a romantic relationship than sex. And another news flash: you can have a romantic relationship without sex.
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MaxSouth



Joined: 11 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:11 pm Reply with quote
There is no issue of chaste-shaming in the media, but sex-shaming goes systematic, and general anime genres are among all kinds of examples of that. Having personal beliefs in value of sex as something "sacred" is one thing, but the continuing society-wide attempt to suppress and taboo the very core of humanity is inexcusable. There is no actual moral ground why such "morals" are instilled on all of viewers.

It would be fine with some heroes keeping themselves chaste; those people do exist, and it would be realistic. However, when, as I wrote, no one ever has sex in general anime genres, and in shojo not even males want it, it reeks of hypocrisy and totalitarian, oppressive mindset.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:17 pm Reply with quote
^
There are quite a few shows where the characters have sex. However, I definitely agree with your point that - as a general rule - sex is out of bounds for the overwhelming majority of Anime characters.

Anime has this awful thing with libido in male characters. Generally speaking, either the guys are unnaturally chaste and have no intention of ever looking at a female body unless a girl falls on top of them, or they're raging slimeball perverts and proud of it.
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