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2004 Year in Review


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DragonsRevenge



Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 1150

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:36 am Reply with quote
Re: The Anime on TV article

This is in regard to that part of the 2004 in review. I can't say I completely agree with the success of anime on US TV. Yeah, anime has pretty popular even since I started getting interested in it in 1998, the selection of anime on TV was pretty pathetic. More and more shows are popping up on TV, and to a much lesser extent, in theaters (no less than 3 this year, if not more). However, I don't necessarily think that means it's gotten more popular in the big picture. People that watch it on G4, and Adult swim still haven't heard of-at least in my experience-anything other than what's on those channels. It's the equivolent of enjoying music, but not knowing anything other than what's on the radio. I'm not saying I'm expecting, in those 7 short years, anime to be a mainstream phenomonon this side of the iPod, but the "great strides" anime has made since then, really arent that great. There's more anime on TV, but that hasn't really sharpened people's awareness of it anymore than 7 years ago.

[edited topic -t]
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OTP



Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:03 am Reply with quote
Well, I partly agree with you. Some people don't know what's on outside of Cartoon Network (a guy in another forum I post at says he's a huge anime buff, yet all he talks about are the shows on Toonami and Adult Swim). But that doesn't apply to everyone. I don't have G4, so I can't see the shows they have, but I did like the selection Adult Swim had last year (Case Closed, Fullmetal Alchemist, GitS: SAC). But, yeah, for those that only watch those shows, well, they're missing out.
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allmus



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:13 am Reply with quote
well, me being limited to United Kingdom Television and ntl cable have only 1 option for anime on TV, and that's a channel called toonami, which is all well and good except one thing.

i'm a fan of anime like love hina, chobits, dears, azumanga daioh, green green, and the new subbings of air, and Tsukuyomi -Moon Phase- which will NEVER be shown on a channel like that. so i either download subbed episodes, or wait 4 years for the stupid company's to finally release it in region2 english(if at all!)

i do buy anime i have downloaded if i like it enough, i like to support anime that i like, but these companys telling the subbing groups to stop is stupid, without them subbing in the 1st place, they wouldn't nearly have the fan-base they do now.

only way an anime company is gonna stop me from downloading anime sub's is if they release for sale as a download and already subtitled, it's idiotic of them to expect a fan of the show to wait over a year for somthing they enjoy just because they don't think it will be profitable to get it translated and release in a english speaking country.
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:44 am Reply with quote
allmus wrote:

i do buy anime i have downloaded if i like it enough, i like to support anime that i like, but these companys telling the subbing groups to stop is stupid, without them subbing in the 1st place, they wouldn't nearly have the fan-base they do now.

only way an anime company is gonna stop me from downloading anime sub's is if they release for sale as a download and already subtitled, it's idiotic of them to expect a fan of the show to wait over a year for somthing they enjoy just because they don't think it will be profitable to get it translated and release in a english speaking country.


Hmm.. last time I checked it wasn't your god-given right to be able to watch anime, nor for you to determine the proper amount of time it should take a company to release a series. The companies are perfectly within their right to ask fansub groups and torrent sites from hosting shows that they own the rights to. Frankly, you should be happy that you get licensed anime at all, as many many countries do not. While it may have been true in the past the fansubs helped create the fanbase, this is not so much the case anymore. More and more, people are finding it easier to simply download the fansubs then actually go out and spend money on the DVDs, which is sad.
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Joe Mello



Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 1832
Location: Tekkoshocon

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:48 am Reply with quote
I think the hardest part about doing a YiR is trying to be objective, and while the opinions of anime on Network TV are probably newsworthy, they aren't worth reporting at the risk of sounding subjective.

Nice job, guys. It's tough to condense, but I thought you did all right. One minute nitpick, though: I thought it was the Video Music Awards and not the other way around.
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Nionel



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 346
Location: Nebraska

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:55 am Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:
More and more, people are finding it easier to simply download the fansubs then actually go out and spend money on the DVDs, which is sad.


I completely agree with you Kazuki-san, I know some people how only download fansubs for shows they watch simply because they don't want to go out and spend the money to buy and watch each DVD, and I know the people who do it don't think that it's hurting the companines 'cause they're aren't losing that much money on their eyes, but it's more than about the money when it comes to things like this, if DVD sales aren't good then it could make the companies most hesitant to licence and release future series that revolve around the same theme or series...

Anyway, as far as anime on TV goes, I don't have cable, so I learn about new shows through friends, fansubs, and buying DVDs.[/i]
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allmus



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:44 am Reply with quote
Quote:
The companies are perfectly within their right to ask fansub groups and torrent sites from hosting shows that they own the rights to


while i have nothing againest that, if it's licenced in usa and released then i have no arguement, it's the anime that is unlicenced and/or licenced in usa and then sat on until the there is no competition being released.

Quote:
More and more, people are finding it easier to simply download the fansubs then actually go out and spend money on the DVDs, which is sad


well yes, it's easyer to download a episode that would take 2 maybe 3 hours to download there and then, than to wait 3-6 months(if your lucky and it's popular) for the company to re-make the anime using english voices, then box them, and put on retail.
while i, along with alot of others do both, i download new episode as i KNOW i won't be seeing them released in english for the next year or so, when they do get release, i still buy them, even if it's just to leave in it's box and gather dust.

and as for buying them, i have to goto the amazon online retail site just to get them, and then wait an extra 2 week, and pay tax on it just to get it to my door, not only that but the ones i do buy are region 1 usa, lucky for me that i bought a mutli region dvd player a while ago.
so it's an extremly long wait time to buy things for people living in england. also we haven't got that may shop's that sell good anime, all the shops i see only sell mainstream anime like yugioh and pokemon, i haven't see a region2 version of things like chobits and green green yet.

when the companys make a way for me to download subbed titles of there produces i'll start buying, but until then i have to rely on fansubs to even find out if i like it or not. it's not like theres adverters anywhere in england on cute anime, the best anime on UK TV at the moment i think is BIG O, closely followed by dragonball, and i'm not even interested in either.
i'd also like to thank the desync website for streaming it's love hina over winamp, as if i had never seen it, i would have never saw it, nor bought the $250 complete collection, not to mention all the posters, and extra's, i must have spend well over £500 on love hina alone, and that's about $750 US.

EDIT: sorry forgot to say, i do agree with you in part, i think as soon as a USA anime company has bought the licence to an anime AND released a retail date for sale the anime subbing groups should remove the anime, but only when the USA anime company has clearly stated when the anime is going to be released, just owning the rights without any idea of when it's gonna be made is bad for the anime, some companys could start doing this just to sit on the anime usa release, which denied the english speaking fan access to it.(or atleast denies them how to understand anything).
if i had the time and brains i'd probablly learn to understand japanese and just buy it straight from there, shame i don't though!
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Tenchi



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 3550
Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:18 pm Reply with quote
It's a well-written article and I like the way Bamboo writes and I have no intention of nitpicking it. I'll just say that she's a lot more optimistic about where anime will go in the future than I am and leave it at that. (Not that I'm pessimistic, just realistic; things don't always go "up, up, up", and one of these years we will achieve the high water mark for the popularity of what will always be a niche fandom.)

Okay, one sentence is just too tempting.

Quote:
The Fox Box worked its magic with shows like One Piece.


I guess "low-ratings magic" is a kind of magic, considering that old reruns of SpongeBob Squarepants are beating it in the ratings with the targeted 6-11 demographic (the one the advertisers care about for Saturday mornings on the channels that show cartoons) by margins of as much as 5-to-1, and Codename: Kids Next Door frequently beats it by 2 ratings points, and even Xiaolin Showdown doubles what One Piece pulls in. I understand that some local Fox stations don't show Foxbox in the time slots for which the ratings are measured, so the actual overall ratings are probably a hair higher, but One Piece mania doesn't seem to be sweeping the nation as evidenced by how I can't find a single article talking about the popularity of this new pirate cartoon from the country that brought us Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh over at Google News.
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yuricon



Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:57 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
[as of January 18, 2005, while the Shoujocon name has been retired, a new "anime and manga by, for, and about women" convention, Onna!, is being organized by SJCon's parent organization, the Shoujo Arts Society. Onna! will take place on October 8-10, 2005, at the Gateway Hilton, in Newark, NJ, the location of the inaugural 2000 Shoujocon]


This is incorrect. Onna! is a joint venture, co-sponsored by Shoujo Arts Society and Yurikon LLC. Neither Shoujocon nor Yuricon are in anyway defunct, nor have they merged. We are simply co-operating to create something new.

Shoujo Arts Society and Shoujocon still have their own schedule of events, such as their holiday manga shopping tour held last month, as does Yurikon LLC (which also backs ALC Publishing) and Yuricon, which is holding the Yuri Revolution event in Tokyo this coming April.

Hopefully, after Onna!, people will begin to understand the concept of a joint venture a little better!



[/quote]
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Tempest
ANN Publisher & CEO


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 8564
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:30 pm Reply with quote
allmus wrote:
while i, along with alot of others do both, i download new episode as i KNOW i won't be seeing them released in english for the next year or so, when they do get release, i still buy them, even if it's just to leave in it's box and gather dust.


You my friend, are among the minority. If everyone was as ethical as you, there'd be no problem.

Unfortunately most people don't buy after they download, and at least some percentage of them would buy if they couldn't download...

Fansubs are a great thing for the ethical minority, but it's the unethical majority that are turning fansubs into a potential danger to the industry. Which is why the industry is starting to act the way it is...

Personally I disagree with you somewhat on when fansubs should be retired. My opinion, however, doesn't matter.If you ask a hundred other fans, you'll probably get 100 slightely different answers ranging from "they should never be retired" to "they should never be distributed in the first place." When there's such a wide variety of subjective opinions on a matter of ethics, there's only one opinion that really counts. The law, and the law says that fansub distribution is illegal, period. Right now fansubbers and fans of fansubbers should just be thankful that the industry isn't sticking the law to them everytime...

-t


Last edited by Tempest on Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Necros Antiquor



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 571
Location: Funny in a car crash sort of way

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:34 pm Reply with quote
Rebel! The name of the topic actually applies to all of it!

tempest wrote:
Unfortunately most people don't buy after they download, and at least some percentage of them would buy if they couldn't download...


It is really hard to follow through on buying anime that you've downloaded, especially if a) the lazy part of you doesn't want to give the time and money to buy it, or b) if you are a student without a solid income. (I am afflicted by both...but I still try to buy shows that I really like and most of the ones I download.)
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:51 pm Reply with quote
Necros Antiquor wrote:

It is really hard to follow through on buying anime that you've downloaded, especially if a) the lazy part of you doesn't want to give the time and money to buy it, or b) if you are a student without a solid income. (I am afflicted by both...)


c) you go to the store to buy yourself a copy of Champloo.. but wait! The cover of Paranoia Agent looks so tempting. I wonder what it's about. *flips the case over and reads the back* Hmm... Champloo, already seen. PA looks so cool. PA it is!
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Steventheeunuch



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 2973
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:59 pm Reply with quote
Tenchi wrote:

I guess "low-ratings magic" is a kind of magic, considering that old reruns of SpongeBob Squarepants are beating it in the ratings with the targeted 6-11 demographic (the one the advertisers care about for Saturday mornings on the channels that show cartoons) by margins of as much as 5-to-1, and Codename: Kids Next Door frequently beats it by 2 ratings points, and even Xiaolin Showdown doubles what One Piece pulls in. I understand that some local Fox stations don't show Foxbox in the time slots for which the ratings are measured, so the actual overall ratings are probably a hair higher, but One Piece mania doesn't seem to be sweeping the nation as evidenced by how I can't find a single article talking about the popularity of this new pirate cartoon from the country that brought us Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh over at Google News.


How far is One Piece on TV, though? I mean these things do take time, afterall.
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Kusanagi-Kei



Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 230

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:19 pm Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:
c) you go to the store to buy yourself a copy of Champloo.. but wait! The cover of Paranoia Agent looks so tempting. I wonder what it's about. *flips the case over and reads the back* Hmm... Champloo, already seen. PA looks so cool. PA it is!

Hehehe, funny. I agree totally.
You guys don't know how much I've discussed this issue over another forum called Minitokyo, about the Media Factory Inc. case. Minitokyo - Media Factory Inc. case

I think that people who download and have the capability to download (i.e. high speed internet access) do not buy as much as the normal non-internet heavy user, or non-BitTorrent user or the 56kb/s dial up user. I know a lot of friends who do not have such capability to download fansubbed anime, and they have huge amounts of anime DVDs, literally hundreds like 400 anime DVDs. They are happy with their purchases, and enjoy both subbed and dubbed versions of the anime.
Whereas the average internet user who has gained a lot of knowledge about browsing and file-sharing methods acquire most (like 95%) of their anime from just downloads, which I think is totally unethical to the anime industry. These people have formed a bias and one-sided argument for subtitled anime.
This then leads to the debates of dub and sub preferencing. I honestly believe that fansubbing groups and thus fansubbed anime has truly caused the majority if not all of the anime fan population to be extremely biased towards just subtitled anime. The vast distribution of fansubbed anime, which is only in Japanese and english subtitles spreads the ideal trend and tradition that subtitled anime is truly the way to go, and that has caused a total rip in the dubbed anime industry. This is turn leads to a chain reaction whereby the viewers of fansubs do not buy the DVDs, because they think it isn't worth buying the anime just for the case and ("awful") English voice acting.
And thus since due to simple economics of supply & demand, there is no demand for licensed Region 1/2 English anime DVDs, and thus that may cause the picture to be altered and companies just hold back since the fansubbing groups are doing the job for them.

I honestly believe that if the fansubbing groups and also BitTorrent network were not to exist if not heavily limited, the average anime fan would be more healthy (watching both Japanese and English soundtracks) and that US/English licensors and companies would have a better position in the industry in comparison to the rising popularity of fansubbing.

Indeed, the fansubbing groups may have contributed in spreading anime throughout the entire world, but I honestly think the fansubbing groups and the fans of fansubs are backfiring on themselves - they don't want the DVDs because they have the subbed versions, and thus US companies step down.

Who knows, maybe even the average employee in a US licensing anime company may have his biases towards fansubbed anime, and he might be spreading words around those companies which may cause a tear in the US market. That average employee of that US anime licensor may also download gigabytes of anime everyday. The fansubbers and fans of fansubs are simply asking for it, they're hitting themselves in the head.

I myself consider myself to be a true anime fan, one who knows a great deal about anime, its seiyuu, creators, studios, licensors, etc. whereas the everyday anime leecher would possess very much less and also no knowledge about the English side of the anime market.
I buy a lot of anime DVDs and download some anime (though not as heavy as the thirsty leecher). I watch both Japanese w/Eng subtitles and English versions of the anime, and thus I have gained the most value from my DVDs and anime, and also learning a lot and lot of names and titles. My anime collection consists mainly of official anime DVDs, and few downloaded.
That's a true otaku. Wink
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Tenchi



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 3550
Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:25 pm Reply with quote
Steventheeunuch wrote:

How far is One Piece on TV, though? I mean these things do take time, afterall.


Since September, but modern TV programming executives are fairly fickle when it comes to giving shows time to build up audiences, and the most recent ratings available indicate a downward trend compared to the show's performance over the fall, when it was getting as "high" as a 1.7 or 1.8.
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