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NEWS: Leiji Matsumoto Settles Suit over Plagiarism Claim


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Mohawk52



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:25 pm Reply with quote
About time. Now maybe Matsumoto can get back to creating some new productions.
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Proman



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:45 pm Reply with quote
That's a pretty petty thing to sue over. Especially considering that some people (i.e. Yoko Kanno) blatantly base most of their output on other people's work and nobody make a beep.

Two lines could just be considered to be an homage.
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egoist
Pirate KingPirate King


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:52 pm Reply with quote
The person suing should be sued by the government for wasting its time, sincerely. Ah, this world doesn't cease to amaze me.
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penguintruth



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:58 pm Reply with quote
Proman wrote:
That's a pretty petty thing to sue over. Especially considering that some people (i.e. Yoko Kanno) blatantly base most of their output on other people's work and nobody make a beep..


Those Yoko Kanno comparisons are pathetic. Most of them sound only vaguely similar. It's nothing but an excuse to tear down a brilliant talent by a bunch of wannabe iconoclasts.

But yeah, I think Matsumoto should concentrate on other things besides folks plagarizing a couple of lines. My fear is that he's become one of those old anime guys that's gotten grumpy over the years.
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Proman



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:12 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
Proman wrote:
That's a pretty petty thing to sue over. Especially considering that some people (i.e. Yoko Kanno) blatantly base most of their output on other people's work and nobody make a beep..


Those Yoko Kanno comparisons are pathetic. Most of them sound only vaguely similar. It's nothing but an excuse to tear down a brilliant talent by a bunch of wannabe iconoclasts.


You are only saying this because you don't understand the sheer extent of her "borrowing". When I say blatant, I mean BLATANT as in note for note. Do yourself a favor and compare Sting's "La Belle Dame Sans Regrets" with "Words that We Couldn't Say". The guitar section isn't just close it is identical. I'm only giving you one example here but I'd like to hear you defend this one.

I like her and admit she may be a great producer but a brilliant composer she is not. I wouldn't even hold it against her if she just admitted to it.

P.S. I know I've said I'll give you just one example and I am very sorry but if you don't see how something like "Cosmic Dare" is a ripoff of Sugarbabe's "Overload" than this argument is pretty much pointless.
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penguintruth



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:10 pm Reply with quote
Proman wrote:
[You are only saying this because you don't understand the sheer extent of her "borrowing". When I say blatant, I mean BLATANT as in note for note. Do yourself a favor and compare Sting's "La Belle Dame Sans Regrets" with "Words that We Couldn't Say". The guitar section isn't just close it is identical. I'm only giving you one example here but I'd like to hear you defend this one.


Oooh, one segment is similar. Such a rip.

You're reaching.

Quote:
P.S. I know I've said I'll give you just one example and I am very sorry but if you don't see how something like "Cosmic Dare" is a ripoff of Sugarbabe's "Overload" than this argument is pretty much pointless.


I'll admit, those songs are very similar, but there were a multitude of songs like that from the mid to late nineties. You couldn't turn on your radio without hearing a song like that. Thus "Cosmic Dare" not really being one of my favorite Kanno compositions.

But her entire skill revolves around sampling music types and putting her own spin on them. She doesn't rip anyone off. She's a genius composer.
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HellKorn



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:21 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
But her entire skill revolves around sampling music types and putting her own spin on them. She doesn't rip anyone off. She's a genius composer.
Sampling is what a rap producer does; Kanno does NOT do that. She doesn't even acknowledge these works through clear homages (excepting a Pink Floyd nod in Cowboy Bebop with a clear title reference to a track from Dark Side of the Moon).

You would serve yourself well by reading this thread, as well as this one that has lists of songs she's ripped-off.
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penguintruth



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:24 pm Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:
penguintruth wrote:
But her entire skill revolves around sampling music types and putting her own spin on them. She doesn't rip anyone off. She's a genius composer.
Sampling is what a rap producer does; Kanno does NOT do that. She doesn't even acknowledge these works through clear homages (excepting a Pink Floyd nod in Cowboy Bebop with a clear title reference to a track from Dark Side of the Moon).

You would serve yourself well by reading this thread, as well as this one that has lists of songs she's ripped-off.


I've read tons of similar threads. It's drivel. And yes, composers have been sampling for centuries.
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HellKorn



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:33 pm Reply with quote
I can only see such claims as them being "drivel" by people who either have no understanding of music or are in denial due to wanting to keep her on a pedestal.

You do not have THAT kind of frequency of melodic and rhythmic similarities from THAT many sources when composing from your original ideas. It's not sampling; it's not giving credit to the original; and it's incredibly disingenuous for you to say and imply otherwise.
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penguintruth



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:40 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, you're such an expert in music. You find similarities of this sort everywhere in music and art, it's called appropriation. Kanno's ability to take similarly occurring elements and incorporate them into largely dissimilar works is the same as any other composer's within the past century, and you couldn't possibly know where Kanno gives credit or has permission to begin with.

All of the comparisons I've seen are gray areas at best. The allegations of "plagiarism" are exaggerated. It's almost like nobody knows what the term means.

The industry isn't stupid. I'm sure competitors would have brought it up, or studios shunned her work by this time if they thought she was that big a plagiarist.

It comes down to a matter of opinion. I can understand you thinking she borrows too much, or suspiciously, but to insist it's outright fraud is absurd.
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HellKorn



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:21 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
Yeah, you're such an expert in music.
Yes, I compose my own music and am not tone deaf (the latter of which has no bearing on knowledge of music theory and should allow just about anyone to hear what's going on!), but I don't have a Ph.D, so I have no credibility.

Quote:
You find similarities of this sort everywhere in music and art, it's called appropriation.
PT Anderson occasionally referencing Scorsese in his earlier films and being very open about the latter's influence is not the same thing as PT Anderson lifting a scene-for-scene replication numerous times throughout all of his films.

Quote:
Kanno's ability to take similarly occurring elements and incorporate them into largely dissimilar works is the same as any other composer's within the past century, and you couldn't possibly know where Kanno gives credit or has permission to begin with.
She's never credited Tom Waits, Bjork, Herbie Hancock, Simon and Garfunkel, et cetera. And do you seriously think that she has constantly reached out to all of these artists and paid them when they wanted?

Quote:
All of the comparisons I've seen are gray areas at best. The allegations of "plagiarism" are exaggerated. It's almost like nobody knows what the term means.
"Cloud 9" from "Une héroine" is about as obvious as you can get.

Quote:
The industry isn't stupid. I'm sure competitors would have brought it up, or studios shunned her work by this time if they thought she was that big a plagiarist.
Two things stand in the way of that: comparisons were not as easily done until the internet exploded, making filing sharing much easier; and she is primarily known for her anime soundtracks (and working with anime-related voice actresses). Kanno had established her reputation before everyone could post these comparisons on YouTube or upload them by a .rar file, so she's already respected by anime fans (and some in the industry, it's reasonable to assume) to hold her in high regard. She isn't, however, a large enough figure that holds international attention by the artists I mention above -- and a very sizable number of those whose music bears resemblance to (with varying degrees) are not millionaires who can throw money at any kind of court case that they want, nor do they probably care enough to pursue any issues of plagiarism if it's brought to their attention.

Quote:
It comes down to a matter of opinion. I can understand you thinking she borrows too much, or suspiciously, but to insist it's outright fraud is absurd.
I've never been much of a fan of her work to begin with, but I also don't have any sort of vested interest in "dismantling" her reputation. I just find it frustrating that fans are so unwilling to accept that a substantial amount of her material is most definitely not her own, and she has given little credit (only to a few classical composers, as far as I recall) to those artists. If she were to do the latter, then I really couldn't care less about the issue.
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penguintruth



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:52 pm Reply with quote
Again, you're exaggerating. Nothing of what Kanno borrows in any of her pieces amounts to wholesale plagiarism. Even if an artist couldn't afford to sue her, you would certainly hear outrage from some parts the music community, and you just don't. Nothing would stand up in court, and they barely stand up in those lame YouTube comparisons.

It is true that Kanno is my favorite anime music composer, but I don't worship her by any means, and even I was a little disappointed by how often she borrows, and to what degree, when I first heard of the controversy. But then I listened to the pieces she "stole" from, and most of them sounded like any number of songs from the period from which they came. It's not plagiarism, and the effort to dismantle her works seems like a lot of reaching by wannabe iconoclasts and hyper sensitives who do the same sort of whining when any musical artist's work sounds vagely like another's.

Kanno composes enough amazing original (if you can use that word, because, as I said, all composers are influenced by past composers) pieces to not let vague similarities get in the way of me enjoying her work.
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HellKorn



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:10 pm Reply with quote
Would you really argue that Tom Waits would be familiar with a musical composer predominantly known for working on anime? We're not talking about Joe Hisaishi or Ryuichi Sakamoto, both of whom are known (and the latter has won awards!) for their music on live-action films as well as animation. Only two of Yoko Kanno's non-anime material have been released outside of Japan: the Honey and Clover live-action adaption and Ashura. The former is clearly marketed towards fans of the anime and manga, and the latter is a recent action-fantasy flick that barely has over 300 votes on IMDB.

penguintruth wrote:
It's not plagiarism, and the effort to dismantle her works seems like a lot of reaching by wannabe iconoclasts and hyper sensitives who do the same sort of whining when any musical artist's work sounds vagely like another's.
Tonality and typical genre compositions are not the same thing as what these "wannabe iconoclasts" object to; influence has no bearing on whether one is original or not. It's not a matter of the songs sounding "ike any number of songs from the period from which they came." Notes, rhythm, composition all practically replicated... you don't get that "from the same period." Changing key or adding a few extrenuous beats (like in Proman's example of "Cloud 9" and "Overload") are not radical differences.

Like I said, if she were to just own up to all this by giving credit where credit is due, then it would not be an issue.
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Proman



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:11 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
Thus "Cosmic Dare" not really being one of my favorite Kanno compositions.


That's classic defense, there, e.g. - I don't like it ergo let's not even count that. I liked how you still called it a Kanno composition though.

penguintruth wrote:
Proman wrote:
[You are only saying this because you don't understand the sheer extent of her "borrowing". When I say blatant, I mean BLATANT as in note for note. Do yourself a favor and compare Sting's "La Belle Dame Sans Regrets" with "Words that We Couldn't Say". The guitar section isn't just close it is identical. I'm only giving you one example here but I'd like to hear you defend this one.


Oooh, one segment is similar. Such a rip.

You're reaching.


Penguin"truth", I'm sorry but your ignorance is staggering. First of all, it's not that one segment is similar. It is exactly the same and so is the entire song.

Second, yes it is a "rip". It is the very definition of a rip-off and there was nothing "pathetic" about brining up this point in a thread to a news article that disscusses a far lesser offence. People have been successfully sued for far less than what Kanno did for a long time. It is not reaching.

Third, this is one example of many, a point that should not be ignored here. You are either unfamiliar with music in general or are simply unwilling to admit that which is obvious to many people who have normal hearing. Your dismissals don't work either, because there is a clear and fairly objectional difference between homages and ripoffs. In any case, I don't know any other composer, Hollywood, Classical or otherwise who blatantly ripped off as many other works for as many years.

penguintruth wrote:
But her entire skill revolves around sampling music types and putting her own spin on them. She doesn't rip anyone off. She's a genius composer.


It's not "sampling" when the entire work is based around somebody else's work. You don't need a Ph. D to know that. What Kanno does is a lot more akin to a job of a talented but still law-breaking producer. Also, I don't know if you know this but producers/musicians actually pay for samples (especially those longer than 1 second). I'm not even going to talk about asking for permissions first. Do you think Kanno ever did that? Had she EVER credited people she "sampled"?


I leave you with just one more comment:

penguintruth wrote:
Again, you're exaggerating. Nothing of what Kanno borrows in any of her pieces amounts to wholesale plagiarism.


I already told you about "Words that We Couldn't Say" - that's wholesale plagarism. So is the opening theme to "Escaflowne" that is "wholesale" take on Adiemus's self-titled track.

I'll give you that the woman does have some talent though. She must - for one thing her records often sound great and the list of her "sources" is quite varied and even expressive. Anything from Steve Reich and Angelo Badalamenti to Ennio Marricone and Herbie Hancock... She also worked with some pretty great English lyricists and singers. I mean, I understand why you enjoy her - I do too Smile . I just wish you were willing to put things in perspective.

You are welcome to continue dissmissing the evidence but I doubt a lot of people will be swayed by your arguments Rolling Eyes .
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penguintruth



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:30 pm Reply with quote
As opposed to the five people on the internet who think you're right, right?
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