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Hey, Answerman! [2009-12-18]


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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:05 pm Reply with quote
The one where I would compare it to is Houshin Enegi, which kills off pretty much the entire cast 2/3rds of the way through for no apparent reason. The entertainment of the series just collapses because all the likeable characters are dead. The deaths are by and large meaningless, and add nothing while killing the series.

Though I do agree with you on the award crap. There's a reason why I don't give a crap about the newberry award. I own a book which basically won an award because the dog dies at the end. It delt with death for a couple of pages, and it wins an award. It was a good book, but the dog's death was completely meaningless due to it happening within the last few pages.
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CCSYueh



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:24 pm Reply with quote
Kalessin wrote:
I get the impression that having women play men works better in Japanese than in English. I don't know if it's the vocal range of Japanese or what, but it's not as obvious as when they try it in English. It's fairly typical for women to play some of the men in Japanese (e.g. Kenshin in Rurouni Kenshin was played by a woman in Japanese even though he is most definitely a man). But it's quite rare in English.


Peter Pan
Was this not a female role for ages on stage?

Don't forget there was a time not all that long ago when being an actor was a rather disreputable career in the west. Females were often played by males so our tradition actually runs opposite of Japan's use of females playing males. However, there have been many roles of women pretending to be men in movies. Julie Andrews. Barbara Streisand. It's not an uncommon situation. But I do know in dubbing work in the past it wasn't uncommon for them to run to guys. I recall Hal Linden talking about starving actor work where he'd dub entire foreign films. If they were lucky, the studio hired a female, but he said it was often just 2 guys doing all the roles so again the idea in the west is more guys as gals.
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pparker



Joined: 13 Oct 2007
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Location: Florida
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:30 pm Reply with quote
Things I did not say nor imply in my post...

Charred Knight wrote:
So your saying that Strike Witches is better than anything that the western tainted Shinichirō Watanabe can create? Okay, um no. Your celebrating one of the biggest problems that anime is having as the companies are trying to sell all of their shows to the exact same group of people with hardly any real variation except in what kind of moe show it is. The result is that the market is shrinking with less anime being made, all while you celebrate it's demise. Your basically saying that Xenophobia is a good thing, when it's not.


Now that we have that cleared up...

What I did say was:

Quote:
The Japanese combination of animism and Eastern religion, their social and cultural traditions, plus their own library of history and myth, and often layered with the U.S. occupation and cultural import influence, provides a new and unique entertainment experience.


Re:

Charred Knight wrote:
Japan's xenophobic behavior when it comes to video games has caused a crisis in gaming as well where the Japanese have begun to just make the same games over and over again...

I can't tell if you are saying the xenophobia is the cause of the repetitiveness in game designs, or whether those are two separate issues. I would say that lack of creative innovation has little if any direct connection with xenophobia.

Charred Knight wrote:
Compare that with western gaming as it continues to evolve due to the influences of companies all over the world.

Again, not a logical conclusion. Maybe those influences are contributing to innovation, maybe not so much. I'm not a gamer, so my opinion is worth that little. Obviously foreign influences can spark innovations, as has happened in film at times. However, the effect isn't that simple. New Hollywood was influenced by The French New Wave, which borrowed from Italian Neorealism and Hollywood Film Noir, which itself used visual style from German Expressionist. Anime was influenced by Disney, etc, etc.

Japan has a proclivity and talent for importing and incorporating elements of other cultures, again layering them with their own stories. That's not the same as a Japanese author writing a story that adheres to Western mores, social concepts, plot structures and political strictures because of U.S. production control and influence, which is then animated in anime style by Japanese.

The theme of my post was that apparently, according to scholarly and anecdotal evidence, the interest in anime in the U.S., at least, was due to the "Japanese-ness" of anime more than any other factor. The fact that anime has become stale creatively is just that. They've suffered a blow to their economic model and are reacting in typical human, and particularly Japanese, manner by pulling back to what pays the bills. The Japanese economically tend to develop a mass-production type of model and then refuse to change it well beyond its usefulness. This is based on their social model, which I think is changing, but ever so slowly. They will have a creative revolution in anime, but I don't think sacrificing their own viewpoint to that of Hollywood is the right direction.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:58 pm Reply with quote
Did you not say you don't want western ideas to influence anime? That the best part of anime was how "Japanese" it was? That to me shows that you applaud xenophobic behavior.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:35 pm Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:
The one where I would compare it to is Houshin Enegi, which kills off pretty much the entire cast 2/3rds of the way through for no apparent reason. The entertainment of the series just collapses because all the likeable characters are dead. The deaths are by and large meaningless, and add nothing while killing the series.


I've loved Soul Hunter since I bought it while ADV was releasing the individual dvds. I completely disagree the character deaths kill the show, particularly when the bloodbath is from the original manga which is based on a classic Chinese tale. Maybe the bloodbath comes from there. They are tackling an extremely powerful entity & her allies & the deaths are her fickle whims. If the author is trying to portray her as an abominable creature, he shouldn't have her wreak carnage? What do you want? Dakki just take away their library cards? Throw mud on them? Of all the stuff I've read she stands as one of the most wicked evil creatures in manga because she can kill so easily.
Look at Romeo & Juliet. Ever read "How to write a Blackwood Article" by Poe? Not to mention his writings on the use of dead people in the story.
Yes, sometimes it's a cheap device, but isn't the heroes all surviving the assault on the enemy also a tad unreasonable? Ask a soldier sometime. Warriors die.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:44 pm Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:
Charred Knight wrote:
The one where I would compare it to is Houshin Enegi, which kills off pretty much the entire cast 2/3rds of the way through for no apparent reason. The entertainment of the series just collapses because all the likeable characters are dead. The deaths are by and large meaningless, and add nothing while killing the series.


I've loved Soul Hunter since I bought it while ADV was releasing the individual dvds. I completely disagree the character deaths kill the show, particularly when the bloodbath is from the original manga which is based on a classic Chinese tale. Maybe the bloodbath comes from there. They are tackling an extremely powerful entity & her allies & the deaths are her fickle whims. If the author is trying to portray her as an abominable creature, he shouldn't have her wreak carnage? What do you want? Dakki just take away their library cards? Throw mud on them? Of all the stuff I've read she stands as one of the most wicked evil creatures in manga because she can kill so easily.
Look at Romeo & Juliet. Ever read "How to write a Blackwood Article" by Poe? Not to mention his writings on the use of dead people in the story.
Yes, sometimes it's a cheap device, but isn't the heroes all surviving the assault on the enemy also a tad unreasonable? Ask a soldier sometime. Warriors die.


The deaths are the point where Houshin Engi goes away from the original legend, unless the original legend has an alien in it. The point is that it kills the enjoyment of the manga, that's something that a shonen writer must know.

Also the deaths occur way to early, even Tomino knows that you keep characters alive until the end. If you look at Zeta the death total sky rockets at the end, same with G Gundam, and in Fullmetal Alchemist the deaths happen in bunches.

Also you have to replace characters when you kill them, Fullmetal Alchemist immediatly introduced a ton of characters after the Greed arc to replace characters killed earlier.

Also I should point out that the killings only happen in the manga, the anime doesn't have the bloodbath. It's why I prefer the anime because it leaves in the good parts while ignoring the horrible 2/3rds.
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Kalessin



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:20 pm Reply with quote
pparker wrote:
Ryo Hazuki wrote:
This might be a very unpopular opinion but I certainly wouldn't want Disney or even Pixar influencing Studio Ghibli.

Agreed. I don't know where the concept comes from that Westernizing anime is a good thing other than a sort of cultural imperialism, wanting to influence and take credit for animation made outside the U.S. If you put these two studios together, you'll get Ghibli watered down to political correctness and the standard Disney formula. Every time I've read scholarly works contemplating the appeal of anime outside Japan, that author concluded in one way or another that it was "because of the Japanese story elements". Every time I read or listen to accounts from early fans, I hear the same thing. From the little I've read about it, a big part of Gonzo's demise was their attempt to directly appeal to Western audiences. As soon as they dropped that and did Strike Witches, they had their biggest seller in history.


If the goal is to improve how well Ghibli moves sell internationally, then it makes perfect sense to try and "broaden its appeal." Doing so could easily make it less appealing to Japanese audiences and could result in what many would consider an inferior movie. However, if the goal was to sell more, and it sells more, then they'd have succeeded. It really depends on what they're trying to do. For whatever reason, quality and mass market appeal tend to have little to do with one another.

I got the impression that Brian was talking about what Ghibli needed to do to make itself more "relevant" to countries outside of Japan and sell better. That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with quality. Though, if you're taking the best of the western creators as their partners, it might turn out quite well. But no, it probably wouldn't be as "Japanese" as it would have been otherwise, and many (potentially including the Japanese) might not like that.
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Kalessin



Joined: 15 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:33 pm Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:
Kalessin wrote:
I get the impression that having women play men works better in Japanese than in English. I don't know if it's the vocal range of Japanese or what, but it's not as obvious as when they try it in English. It's fairly typical for women to play some of the men in Japanese (e.g. Kenshin in Rurouni Kenshin was played by a woman in Japanese even though he is most definitely a man). But it's quite rare in English.


Peter Pan
Was this not a female role for ages on stage?


Well, Peter Pan is a boy, so that's really not all that different from having women play boys in anime. It's them playing men that's weird.

CCSYueh wrote:
Don't forget there was a time not all that long ago when being an actor was a rather disreputable career in the west. Females were often played by males so our tradition actually runs opposite of Japan's use of females playing males. However, there have been many roles of women pretending to be men in movies. Julie Andrews. Barbara Streisand. It's not an uncommon situation. But I do know in dubbing work in the past it wasn't uncommon for them to run to guys. I recall Hal Linden talking about starving actor work where he'd dub entire foreign films. If they were lucky, the studio hired a female, but he said it was often just 2 guys doing all the roles so again the idea in the west is more guys as gals.


Good point, but generally speaking, these days, women do not actually play men in US productions. It is a rare case indeed when you see a woman playing a man's part, and the character is actually a man. So, not much of anyone is going to think that a character is a man if they're played by a female, even if everyone in the production acts like the character is male. The viewers will either be confused and/or expect some later revelation that the character is actually a woman posing as a man.

And as for men playing women in theater, that's not exactly Western-specific. The same happened in Kabuki theater in Japan. It's just that they went farther the other way than we did, and they have female voice actors playing male parts.

Really, if a male VA can sound like a woman or a female VA can sound like a man, then it's not an issue (shockingly enough, Edna in The Incredibles was played by a man - the director in fact). However, in English at least, it's quite difficult for someone to sound like they're an adult of the opposite gender. I get the impression that it works better in Japanese due to a smaller gap in the vocal range of the two, but maybe it's just that Japanese audiences don't care as much - like how US audiences tend to really care about the VAs matching the lip flaps, and the Japanese don't seem to mind as long as it's not way off.
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TheVok



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:14 pm Reply with quote
If you want to point fingers at economically unsustainable anime, Studio Ghibli--and in particular, Hayao Miyazaki--is really not a good place to start.

When Miyazaki directs a movie and it is released in Japan, it sets box office records. It brings in massive profit on a relatively small upfront cost. It's the kind of gravy most Hollywood producers would die for. Big, big, big.

These are not movies that need to do well in other countries. (Though sometimes they happen to. Ponyo did surprising business not just in other Asian markets like South Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan, but also France and Italy. And it still did better in the U.S. than any previous Miyazaki movie, including the far more widely hyped Spirited Away.)

Other anime productions, on the other hand, could stand to diversify their audience. The Japanese market (like the country's population) is stabilizing very quickly, so any growth will have to be found elsewhere.

Getting back to Ghibli, the way I figure, the Disney deal is doing its job. Gradually a North American audience (which keep in mind is only one segment of the 'overseas audience') is being built for the studio's works. This is the only way, I think, that Ponyo did as well as it did on these shores.
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pparker



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:03 pm Reply with quote
Kalessin wrote:
If the goal is to improve how well Ghibli moves sell internationally, then it makes perfect sense to try and "broaden its appeal." Doing so could easily make it less appealing to Japanese audiences and could result in what many would consider an inferior movie. However, if the goal was to sell more, and it sells more, then they'd have succeeded.... Though, if you're taking the best of the western creators as their partners, it might turn out quite well. But no, it probably wouldn't be as "Japanese" as it would have been otherwise

My viewpoint is purely from a viewer perspective, and quality is subjective. I was just tossing out the concept that if you are trying to make "anime" more popular outside Japan, it may not be the best idea to try to Westernize it, based on existing research and past results. It would be silly to think that Disney would invest substantial funding without creative control, so you will get an animated feature that adheres to their social and political standards regardless of who writes it. They want to make their money back, and they have a formula that beats the hell out of Miyazaki's commercial results internationally. It's entirely possible that a collaboration between Disney and Ghibli could produce a wildly popular animated movie. It doubt it would be what I think of as anime, or include certain of the elements that attracted me to anime, but it could be successful financially.

TheVok wrote:
Other anime productions, on the other hand, could stand to diversify their audience. The Japanese market (like the country's population) is stabilizing very quickly, so any growth will have to be found elsewhere.

It really is a problem that their population is aging and shrinking, and along with that their anime market is shrinking as well. All entertainment gets old and goes out of style eventually. They do need to figure out what, if anything, is going to bring audiences back to or toward anime in Japan. That may in fact be going to more foreign content, but I doubt it. If the movie market crashed in America, producing a bunch of Chinese scripts probably wouldn't be the solution. Just as an example, New Hollywood succeeded because the studio system had kept on making movies in the 1960's that appealed to audiences in 1950's. The world had moved on, and the studio execs couldn't even understand the problem, much less discover a solution amongst themselves. The Japanese are superb incrementalist innovators, but when it comes to the big bang revolution, they may be even worse than those old studio heads. I believe the industry may have to suffer a near-total breakdown before new blood has a chance to discover the next big thing.

Outside Japan, I don't see a huge boom in animation occuring based on our telling our stories in cartoon format. So it doesn't make sense that westernizing anime is going to make it any more appealing to Western audiences. It's still cartoons. Cartoons made in Japan have been wildly popular there, and to some degree in other countries. Cartoons produced elsewhere have not. There's the rub.

Charred Knight wrote:
Did you not say you don't want western ideas to influence anime? That the best part of anime was how "Japanese" it was? That to me shows that you applaud xenophobic behavior.

You seem to have a political dog to beat, and you're irked because I'm not picking up my whip to join you. What is going on with the xenophobia bit? Are you still upset that R.O.D. the TV made fun of George Bush?
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CCSYueh



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:56 am Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:
The deaths are the point where Houshin Engi goes away from the original legend, unless the original legend has an alien in it. The point is that it kills the enjoyment of the manga, that's something that a shonen writer must know.


I'm very much enjoying the manga as Viz is releasing it. It seems a pretty good way to establish what a monster Dakki is. What's thew dif between Light killing hundreds of people & Dakki? Just because Light's are off screen for the most part & we don't see them? Did we really know Hiko's wife? His sister? Weren't they more a reason for Hiko to turn on the Emperor? Ki Sho's son? And that makes the story so incredibly good, that the author can make such fasciating characters out of what would normally be a bit player, the red shirts of Star Trek characters.


Charred Knight wrote:
Also the deaths occur way to early, even Tomino knows that you keep characters alive until the end. If you look at Zeta the death total sky rockets at the end, same with G Gundam, and in Fullmetal Alchemist the deaths happen in bunches.


Katsuyuki Konishi in Guren Lagann lasted how long?

When is too early? I've seen stories start with the main character's death & play backwards from there. (Didn't Urameshi die right off the bat in YuYu Hakusho?) The author should have waited halfway thru the story to establish what an evil monster Dakki was? To give various characters personal motivation to take her out?

Charred Knight wrote:
Also you have to replace characters when you kill them, Fullmetal Alchemist immediatly introduced a ton of characters after the Greed arc to replace characters killed earlier.


One practically needs a scorecard to keep track of the characters in Hoshin Engi. It reminds me of those All Star cast movies. He has dozens of characters so what doe it matter if he kills a bunch off. There are dozens more in the wings.

Charred Knight wrote:
Also I should point out that the killings only happen in the manga, the anime doesn't have the bloodbath. It's why I prefer the anime because it leaves in the good parts while ignoring the horrible 2/3rds.


No, the anime has the bloodbath. It really helps one hate Dakki with a passion for killing off so many good people.

Quote:
Really, if a male VA can sound like a woman or a female VA can sound like a man, then it's not an issue (shockingly enough, Edna in The Incredibles was played by a man - the director in fact). However, in English at least, it's quite difficult for someone to sound like they're an adult of the opposite gender. I get the impression that it works better in Japanese due to a smaller gap in the vocal range of the two, but maybe it's just that Japanese audiences don't care as much - like how US audiences tend to really care about the VAs matching the lip flaps, and the Japanese don't seem to mind as long as it's not way off


There are certain tones to a gal's voice vs a guy's voice so with an androgynous character, a director might choose to go with a female to pick up those tones. The better actresses deepen their voices to sound more masculine, but they still have the female tones. I really don't like when the gal doesn't even try to sound masculine

I recall a person who died about a decade ago was believed to be a man, but the autopsy revealed he was a she. No one noticed in town?
It probably goes back to our own sexist society, but I do recall much more male crossdressing roles than gals. It's a staple of comedy. (Milton Berle.) The image of a guy dressed as a chick being talked up by another guy is perceived as funnier than a gal dressed as a guy talking up a gal (for one, a lot of guys seem to like gal-on-gal action) so we just have less of a tradition. Guys doing old lady voices is also pretty common.

There are the male roles given over to chicks in the dub. I know in Maze they seemed to have a huge problem with Ran Chiki referring to him as a girl in one ep & a boy in another (probably because he's in love with a guy). ADV gave Nobuo Tobita's role in Kimera to a gal. Sailor Moon did that also, didn't they? Turned a guy into a chick in the dub? Tekkaman also?
And then there's Soichiro Hoshi cast as a teen boy in Space Pirate Mito stuck with the role when the boy turns into a girl.


Last edited by CCSYueh on Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ryo Hazuki



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:06 am Reply with quote
Some people don't understand that anime being influenced by western movies or animation is fundamentally different than being influenced by Hollywood execs. In the former the directors, writers and animators take what they think is good in Hollywood, German, Russian or other kind of movies and in the latter the Hollywood guy tells you what to do. Even though Mamoru Oshii's wasn't a massive hit to my knowledge I don't believe it could have been even made in the US. Satoshi Kon isn't as popular as Miyazaki either but he can still make the kind of movies he enjoys.
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:15 am Reply with quote
Regarding death in stories: You're experiencing stories to identify with the protagonist. Everything in a well-written story happens in order to push the protagonist, either positively (towards his or her goals) or negatively (closer to a mental breakdown). Every character who isn't the protagonist is there to allow the protagonist to do things that he or she thinks will bring him or her towards the goal.

Having a character die that affects the protagonist is most certainly a valid reason to drive the story forward and wouldn't distract the story from being "art" at all. It doesn't matter if that character dies early on or near the end, as long as it fits within the context of that point in the story. A well-written story also "raises the stakes" (a narratology term) as it goes on, starting the conflict small and making it grow until the climax. If a character dies at the midway point, or even earlier, as long as increasing pressure gets put on the protagonist, then a character death at that point makes perfect sense and is a great narrative decision to make, if not always the best. Sometimes, a death starts the conflict (Fullmetal Alchemist, The Lion King, The Third Man) and is at the lowest point of raising the stakes.

It does make sense to think that deaths of major characters should come late into the story though, since the protagonist would undoubtedly feel tremendous grief over the loss of someone close to him or her.

Code Geass is the only example I've seen among those mentioned so far about this concept, but every death of a major character drives Lelough Lamperouge (its protagonist) forward, either positively (such as a villain) or negatively (such as a friend). There are a few deaths of important characters near its midway point, which fit within the show raising the stakes in that they drive Lelouch in a different direction than before, and one that allows him to learn bigger truths about his world. At least one of these midpoint deaths affects other characters, who give Lelouch greater opposition than before. (Whether Code Geass is well-written or not is up to the individual viewer, but I feel that it does, at least, get these narrative points right.)

I'll give an example not yet brought up as well. In The Shawshank Redemption, about halfway through, spoiler[Brooks is released out of Shawshank Penitentiary because he's reached the end of his 50-year sentence. Brooks is unable to deal with how different the outside world has become since he went in and subsequently hangs himself. Until that point, Brooks had been a sort of old mentor figure to Andy Dufresne, the protagonist, who is also an inmate of the prison. Andy feels very sad about this, but it's placed halfway through because Andy now knows the horrors of being released too late and starts making an effort to get out as soon as possible.] Had this death been placed any later into the movie, The Shawshank Redemption would have lacked momentum and a consistent pace. This moment drives Andy in a way that needs the remaining half of the movie to play out.

In other words, there is no such thing as a death that occurs "too early" into a story, as long as it's appropriate to that point in the story. Rather, the issue in point is regarding character deaths that don't seem necessary or are placed at the wrong moments.

chrisb wrote:
Is it really that hard to get real kids to do voices in anime? I imagine it'd be easier with teenagers. The recent Final Fantasies use real teen actors with Vincent Martella and Bobby Edner. As did Read or Die TV which had a fantastic dub thanks to the kids. Chowder on Cartoon Network's youngest characters are voiced by little kids as well. Infinite Ryvius had a huge amount of teenage actors to go with the mainly teenage cast so it ended up sounding more realistic to me.


As I know more about the behind-the-scenes stuff of American animation than Japanese animation, the only one I knew about on that list is the case with Chowder. It's really quite a mystery to me as to how Cartoon Network could find a kid who had that sort of time to play a starring role in a major TV series. I suppose it found its own Aaron Dismuke. The others, I can only hypothesize: You list a lot of teenage roles, and I can only assume that American culture believes teenagers to be more responsible than pre-teens, both in time management and using money.

I do know the same child-labor laws exist for teenagers, so I can't really explain it. I see a lot of roles that children take up in which the staff had to find ways to accomodate for the child actors, and what I listed were the most prominent cases of stuff I've heard.


Last edited by leafy sea dragon on Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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CCSYueh



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:00 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
Regarding death in stories: You're experiencing stories to identify with the protagonist. Everything in a well-written story happens in order to push the protagonist, either positively (towards his or her goals) or negatively (closer to a mental breakdown). Every character who isn't the protagonist is there to allow the protagonist to do things that he or she thinks will bring him or her towards the goal.

Having a character die that affects the protagonist is most certainly a valid reason to drive the story forward and wouldn't distract the story from being "art" at all. It doesn't matter if that character dies early on or near the end, as long as it fits within the context of that point in the story. A well-written story also "raises the stakes" (a narratology term) as it goes on, starting the conflict small and making it grow until the climax. If a character dies at the midway point, or even earlier, as long as increasing pressure gets put on the protagonist, then a character death at that point makes perfect sense and is a great narrative decision to make, if not always the best. Sometimes, a death starts the conflict (Fullmetal Alchemist, The Lion King, The Third Man) and is at the lowest point of raising the stakes.


With the whole "gather your team" shonen concept, one has XX people who may need motivation. The idea of a team is good because different people supply things the hero may lack. (For Goku-brains. He had power down but seriously lacked intelligence)

leafy sea dragon wrote:
It does make sense to think that deaths of major characters should come late into the story though, since the protagonist would undoubtedly feel tremendous grief over the loss of someone close to him or her.


Shaman King-Faust's Eliza drove him to become a shaman. Had she lived, Yoh would have lost a powerful team member because Faust would have remained a doctor in Germany.
Had Cho Gonou's girlfriend not been kidnapped, he would not have killed 1000 demons to become on himself & The Sanzo Party would be down one very powerful member.
Sometimes the baddie can manipulate someone who has lost someone dear or who has been persecuted (The Fushigi Yugi OVA-siblings in love used by the big bad for his own goals, never actually planning to give them what he promised)
The only dif really is these happen in backstory. The author may show it, or simply refer to it in passing, but these events shape the team members so they can be there to support the hero, particularly in the case of multiple flunkies. If Kyo had to fight thru all those Mibu in SDK himself, he'd have been out early on. It's Benetora, Hotaru, etc. stepping up allowing him a breather to prepare for the next battle that keeps it going.
Had Hiko not lost family, he might have remained with the Emperor. It also helped paint Dakki as a creature who loved to torture others. She could have simply killed Ki Sho's son in the rotten method she did, but to make her even more evil, she served that son to his father as a meal. All this to make her as despicable as the worst rulers that ever existed, not to mention the whole mythological tie-ins one could get into. She is one of the most vile monsters in anime/manga. Even if she has a personal noble goal, it does not excuse her actions
As was said in the Dudley Dooright movie-the bad guy is the one who has all the fun until he's brought down. Like the baddies in Mad Max or Robocop-rape, pillage, plunder until they are brought down. They ignore society's rules forcing someone, even an average Joe type person to say "Enough!" & rise up to stop them.

leafy sea dragon wrote:
As I know more about the behind-the-scenes stuff of American animation than Japanese animation, the only one I knew about on that list is the case with Chowder. It's really quite a mystery to me as to how Cartoon Network could find a kid who had that sort of time to play a starring role in a major TV series. I suppose it found its own Aaron Dismuke. The others, I can only hypothesize: You list a lot of teenage roles, and I can only assume that American culture believes teenagers to be more responsible than pre-teens, both in time management and using money.

I do know the same child-labor laws exist for teenagers, so I can't really explain it. I see a lot of roles that children take up in which the staff had to find ways to accomodate for the child actors, and what I listed were the most prominent cases of stuff I've heard.


I've seen directors swear they'll never work with kids because of the laws. Why do you think they use twins so often with younger children? They can cover more ground & still comply with child-labor laws. However in voice acting, twins don't necessarily sound alike. Yeah, the way things are dubbed here is different from in Japan so there may be a tad more room here, but VA work in anime also doesn't necessarily pay union scale, so it makes more sense for stage moms/dads to steer the kids to live-action stuff like tv, movies or stage work. The biggest reason to use a kid is because an adult can't pass. If you can find an adult to pass as they do so often in movies & tv, why deal with having to have a teacher on set, only working the kid so many hours per day or week, etc?
Not to mention the skill level.
Don't take my word for it. Go watch the cast interviews on Area 88 where the director (producer?) comments the pros like Koyasu, Seki & Miki came in & knocked out their lines with barely a pause even at complex technical terms while the newbs caused the majority of the re-takes. Last I saw in Japan they still record the thing with all the actors together in the room which is nice because it allows for interaction vs the way we do it just recording each actor's bit so they have no idea how the other performer is playing the line, but that also means you want the anime production to pay the salaries to the big name actors, the director & the tech while a child flubs a line, forgets, whatever just for authenticity? Yeah, some kids are pros, but kids are also kids. The younger they are, the more likely one is to hit moods.
What is the dif in the sound of an 18 yr old adult & a 15 yr old boy? Would it make you happier if the female voicing the 12 yr old were 18 instead of 45?
Why?
If she's an actress & can sound like a child, why not go for experience? At least she can probably sound coherant. I for one am not a kid person. I like kids when they can tell you what they want. Babies are not cute. They're noisy, demanding, Eveready bunnies who want to play all night after you've been at work all day. No. 2 yr olds are cuter, but if I can't understand what they're saying, they're too frustrating, not to mention useless if the audience can't understand the line being said.
I listened to a commentary on the one Read or Die dvd I found used (#6). Those girls are so annoying in that commentary. Sorry. I listened to a commentary with Aaron Dismuke & he was talking about a term he didn't know that I know my daughter's known since she was 12 or 13. How can you convincingly use a word if you do not understand the meaning of it? If it's your paycheck, maybe you should have a policy of looking it up? (I'll give them tech specific words as long as they can make it sound like they know what it is. Not like there are working Gundams in the world) They're really too much work. I'll take the adult that can knock it out like s/he is the character & not just an actor speaking lines.
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Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 137
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:05 am Reply with quote
Prede wrote:
Wow more Steven Foster complaints? Will that ever die, will it Rolling Eyes ?

Maybe when his career in the field dies. Maybe after he himself dies. Maybe never. Some of us have memories longer than the final season episode of Survivor.
Prede wrote:
Look the guy has directed some truly amazing dubs, from (ADV's ) 5 Centimeters Per Second (one of my all time favorites!!) to Le Chevalier D'Eon . There's really no need to keep bagging on the guy. Ok so Orphen was a little liberal, come on now. It's still a good dub.

Sez you. I'd sooner hammer sharpened pencils into my earholes than hear that one again.
Prede wrote:
There are many other dubs that have been much looser then the Foster stuff Confused , and they really get no crazy outcry either. I'll take the dubs of Pani Poni Dash! , Red Garden, and This Ugly Yet Beautiful World over most other dubs out there anyday. I really like a Foster dub, he knows how to get great performances out of his actors.

You mean like the insultingly horrid dub he did for Saiyuki, which resulted in Newtype USA's sampler discs changing from dub-only to bilingual after a whole lot of negative feedback? This reportedly included someone smashing their copy of the Saiyuki sampler disc to pieces and mailing the shards to ADV.
Prede wrote:
Why do people keep bringing this stupid thing up? Especially since the guy says he's not a big dub fan. Well then why bother in the first place? Crying or Very sad

Because maybe if we get the likes of his BS hammered down (which is not to say that he corners the market on it; did you notice the other two names in that reply?), then I'll appreciate dubs more. Bandai's people don't screw around anywhere near as much, and their dubs are generally good. This is high praise from a subbie.
SXAniMedia wrote:
I largely agree. Some purist fans are still living in the past it seems. These are the same fans that'll still be railing and complaining about Sgt Frog 30 years from now. It amazes me how other companies and directors do the same thing and there isn't the level of venom - probably because those other shows are less otaku-favorites. There's a double standard.

Trish Ledoux was co-head of Viz and now does "adaptations" for Del Rey. Keith Giffen works for DC, but he took some time out to ruin some manga for Tokyopop. This isn't strictly an anti-Foster or anti-ADV thing. It's an anti-I'll-rewrite-this-in-my-own-image-because-I-can-nyaah! thing, and everybody who does that deserves the hate, too.
SXAniMedia wrote:
To compare Foster's early works to today is incomparable anyway.
Foster's recent productions have pretty tight scripts, but still have a great balance of flow and naturalism. Faithfulness for the sake of just being faithful and having poor flow is no good, and sometimes quite boring.

Yeah, wet cement looks dull and has horrible flow compared to, say, beer vomit, but, funnily enough, almost everybody prefers to use the former to lay foundations for homes. Just sayin'.
SXAniMedia wrote:
I can not imagine enjoying Steel Angel Kurumi, Ghost Stories, Colorful or Cromartie High as much as I did without Foster's touch. There's a reason he's considered as one of the top Directors in the industry, landing high profile job after high profile job even with ADV and Seraphim Studio's outside clients.

Steel Angel Kurumi? The same one that made me shut the dub off doubleplusquick because this show that's set in 1920's Japan starts with a group of boys insulting the cautious male lead by calling him a "pussy"? You have got to be joking. Ghost Stories? You mean the one that he totally rewrote so wretchedly that I refuse to buy it as long as his dub is on it (despite liking what I'd seen of it and the faithful subs), since I won't support setting anime back 20 years? Intercourse that distortion. If that's the sort of thing you hold up as examples of his good stuff, then I won't be taking your word on the quality of the most recent titles he's done (in). Face it: Like the other directors/"adapters" who pull this crap, he obviously loves himself far more than the art he's supposed to be adapting, and his body of werk (sic) is vivid proof. If I ever meet him, the first thing I'm going to do is demand that he give me back his share of the money from the discs I've bought that he's dubbed. What I'd do next is tell him to his face all the stuff I'm telling you. Some People Have To Be Told.

Dave.
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