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CNN article on the decline of the anime industry in Japan.


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animeboy12



Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 160
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:07 am Reply with quote
ah, articles from the mainstream press good or bad are always an interesting reads. The amount of blame put on moe or otaku-oriented series is..... I dunno. I recently read a blogspost from ask john, here, where he made a pretty good point that the majority of the anime industry output is not of the moe, otaku-oriented lot (Not that I have any beef with these). I dunno it's getting mighty suspicious because every time I hear the complaints about the moe take over it's always those series K-on, Lucky Star Clannad, air. Just what really amount to a small handful when you consider the what? 50+ series that come out each year, I mean even if you were to add to it would it make a difference? I dunno maybe I'm missing something? For one thing I really like to know the state of the anime industry from a business stand point because lets face it you could have an industry that release epic content after epic content but if the industry isn't a well oil machine, which come to think of it, what industry is going well for itself nowadays?

Anyway just my thoughts
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Jackmace Ryo



Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 65
Location: Southeast Asia
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:49 am Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:
The article is far too sensational, skeletal and loose with the facts to really be considered worth much. There's some worthwhile points made, but they're scarce.


Do you think this beacuse it is filtered by the subjective view of an 'old fan' who doesn't like moe and set in that it is one of the (if not the) biggest factor in the decline of the anime industry?

While that factor is there, the discussion in his private blog suggests that the bottom line is not that, rather than the animators themselves. Perhaps the problem in the anime industry is too many one can't make a satisfying conclusion what is the root and what causes what.

As for my opinion, perhaps the real problem lies in the stigma of anime. This early decade shows signs of possibility of anime coming to the mainstream, as indicated by those points the article made. However, those 'successes' never actually succeed in substantially expanding the market, resulting in an overestimation of anime's worth in both American and Japanese industry.

As a result, the industry focuses to the otaku industry. Now, I think this is actually a good thing. See, the market of entertainment in general is over saturated (which I believe resulting in anime never goes to the mainstream). A marketer brings a great point that what the industry should do in that climate is selling to the people who cares. In short, the otaku. But it shouldn't stop there, in the hope that the people who cares (otaku) creates buzz that eventually will interest people that usually does not care (the mainstream). In this aspect, the problem lies in that the shows that are popular in the otaku market are generally not accessible to the general market. What anime really needs is something that can appeal to both otaku and the general market like say, Neon Genesis Evangelion.


Last edited by Jackmace Ryo on Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:59 am; edited 2 times in total
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Shawn Shaolin



Joined: 30 Dec 2008
Posts: 111
Location: New Jersey
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:49 am Reply with quote
Ggultra2764 wrote:
I think with the downturn in the economy that's taken place, animation studios have taken to development on titles with scenarios and character types that have been done before which are easier to cater to anime fans as taking unconventional or original premises would be risky for most struggling studios. In other words, more moe, romantic comedy and dating sim spinoffs appear to be the norm with studios at the moment.


I concur with this. Its kinda hard right now for an original anime to make it, while the studios know that moe would sell. I think they don't want to take the risk backing something original that may bomb.
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Zin5ki



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 6680
Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:17 am Reply with quote
animeboy12 wrote:
I dunno. I recently read a blogspost from ask john, here, where he made a pretty good point that the majority of the anime industry output is not of the moe, otaku-oriented lot (Not that I have any beef with these).

That was an insightful read. Diagnosing industrial 'cancers' such as these is far from clear-cut, considering the disagreement between this blog post and the CNN article. This would certainly make for an interesting question, albeit a somewhat posing one, for an interview with a contemporary anime director.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:39 am Reply with quote
Jackmace Ryo wrote:
As a result, the industry focuses to the otaku industry. Now, I think this is actually a good thing. See, the market of entertainment in general is over saturated (which I believe resulting in anime never goes to the mainstream). A marketer brings a great point that what the industry should do in that climate is selling to the people who cares. In short, the otaku. But it shouldn't stop there, in the hope that the people who cares (otaku) creates buzz that eventually will interest people that usually does not care (the mainstream). In this aspect, the problem lies in that the shows that are popular in the otaku market are generally not accessible to the general market. What anime really needs is something that can appeal to both otaku and the general market like say, Neon Genesis Evangelion.


Yes, this is exactly it. It's not like anyone expects anime to suddenly become mainstream. The closest to mainstream anime will ever come is kids fads. What we need is simply shows that are accessible to outsiders.

PetrifiedJello wrote:
If one looks at the demographic and viewer statistics to The Simpsons, Family Guy, and Southpark, I'd bet this market is roughly the same as anime.


Dude...Please, for your own sake just go out and ask a few people about this. Anyone not within the anime community will do. Ask which they know more of. Fans of one of those shows or anime fans. Because right now you're totally destroying your credibility...you're basically this woman right now:
elephants moon Pictures, Images and Photos

PetrifiedJello wrote:
And for the record, I don't discriminate a series because of its intended target. Dragonball was targeted at young boys yet many of us watched it.


This may be neither here nor there but I also watched Thomas the train when I was a baby. Sadly I now choose to 'discriminate' against it merely because I'm not it's target demographic. What I'm trying to say is, keep in mind that it's hardly a black and white issue. Sure, it's certainly reasonable if not downright wise to give shows a chance even if you aren't their specific primary demographic. However, there's clearly a limit to that. It's more a question of what specifically a show is about. Again, to use an extreme example: It would be quite odd for an adult to watch Barney because it wouldn't appear to have any kind of appeal to adults.

Quote:
It appears to me it's the current market that's demanding them. A business would be stupid to ignore this demand regardless how saturated the market becomes.


No, that's utterly untrue. A smart business considers the long run as well.
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 3782
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:39 pm Reply with quote
hissatsu01 wrote:
Once again, moe shows that would be considered truly creepy for the most part don't make it to the US.

As well as shows which don't contain creepy or "moe".

Quote:
Those that aren't so creepy and do make it to the US don't sell particularly well.

As well as shows which don't contain creepy or "moe".

Quote:
Ignore reality if you wish.

Now that the scope has been broken out above for better observation, the point I'm making still stands.

Many of you whine and complain that "moe" and creepy elements is what keeps anime from expanding, but that's simply not true. Animation (cartoons) itself is what prevents expansion.

It seems many people here seem to have gotten their "start" in anime through shows like Cowboy Bebop. Yet, why was this series never aired outside of Cartoon Network?

Instead of blaming the "same shit" over and over again, why not ask yourself why anime has never expanded at all given its abundant offerings throughout the many years Japan has been producing it.

Make no mistake here, folks. I'm not at all challenging the "creepy moe" crap wouldn't be distributed here due to people's position on the material. But I absolutely fail to understand the position most of you seem to take that this is the only reason.

Thus, most of us who've been watching for a while aren't fooling ourselves. That falls to those who believe anime "must get better" to increase an imaginary audience base.

Try not fool yourselves to think hardcore fans of this "moe" increase aren't going to be ignored simply because you don't choose to buy it. This hardcore crowd is what's helping anime through larger revenues of merchandise sales. Sure, we'll think it's creepy someone's buying body pillows because of a "moe" series, but don't dismiss the simple fact they bought the very pillow to begin with which is monies they return while you whine about "the same shit".

ikillchicken wrote:
Dude...Please, for your own sake just go out and ask a few people about this.

Don't need to. The Nielsen ratings do all the "talking" for these people.

I just believe it's ironic people are attacking "hardcore creepy moe" fans while not realizing the very same applies to our cartoons outside the child demographic.

Or do people forget Family Guy was once canceled. Why'd it come back? Because the hardcore fans wanted it back.
The same applies to the soon-to-be aired Futurama. Those hardcore fans bought the merchandise, direct-to-DVD movies, and watch the reruns on Comedy Central.

They're contributing, which brings in revenue.

You should also note the irony of your Thomas the train reference and how your consumerism demands have changed because it no longer suits what you feel is entertainment.

It appears Japan's demographic feels the Cowboy Bebop shows are no longer their form of entertainment.

Money is what it's all about. Don't buy creepy "moe" stuff and eventually our distributors may take notice.

The fact they're still bringing it over tells me "[this 'moe' stuff] doesn't sell well" seems to be an inaccurate statement to use as a defense by most.

Also, don't post pictures in your posts. It makes you look like an elementary student. I'm not worried about my credibility, so you shouldn't be either.
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catstigereye



Joined: 25 Oct 2009
Posts: 341
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:40 pm Reply with quote
here it is whats wrong with moe? Anime is not classed by one or the other. calling such shows moe and not moe is nuts. Anime is good or its not. You like the show for the show or you dont! Moe moe moe.. is a forced term on anime. there are other ways of looking at it. Shana how is this moe? I know the problems some have with it. so what? i enjoyed the story. Liked the second season and wanted it released. the real problem is that there is no way to own something you want to own with subtitles right from japan. Now when the companies give us the ability to own the subtitles from japan right off. I will be happy to own the shows i enjoy. moe or not. because i enjoy those shows. i get sick of hearing a small group of fans wine.

just watch or do not watch it's your choice.. simple..
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Gideon Krieg



Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 27
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:13 pm Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:
Now that the scope has been broken out above for better observation, the point I'm making still stands.

Many of you whine and complain that "moe" and creepy elements is what keeps anime from expanding, but that's simply not true. Animation (cartoons) itself is what prevents expansion.
It seems many people here seem to have gotten their "start" in anime through shows like Cowboy Bebop. Yet, why was this series never aired outside of Cartoon Network?

Instead of blaming the "same shit" over and over again, why not ask yourself why anime has never expanded at all given its abundant offerings throughout the many years Japan has been producing it.

Make no mistake here, folks. I'm not at all challenging the "creepy moe" crap wouldn't be distributed here due to people's position on the material. But I absolutely fail to understand the position most of you seem to take that this is the only reason.

Thus, most of us who've been watching for a while aren't fooling ourselves. That falls to those who believe anime "must get better" to increase an imaginary audience base.

Try not fool yourselves to think hardcore fans of this "moe" increase aren't going to be ignored simply because you don't choose to buy it. This hardcore crowd is what's helping anime through larger revenues of merchandise sales. Sure, we'll think it's creepy someone's buying body pillows because of a "moe" series, but don't dismiss the simple fact they bought the very pillow to begin with which is monies they return while you whine about "the same shit".

ikillchicken wrote:
Dude...Please, for your own sake just go out and ask a few people about this.

Don't need to. The Nielsen ratings do all the "talking" for these people.

I just believe it's ironic people are attacking "hardcore creepy moe" fans while not realizing the very same applies to our cartoons outside the child demographic.

Or do people forget Family Guy was once canceled. Why'd it come back? Because the hardcore fans wanted it back.
The same applies to the soon-to-be aired Futurama. Those hardcore fans bought the merchandise, direct-to-DVD movies, and watch the reruns on Comedy Central.

They're contributing, which brings in revenue.

It appears Japan's demographic feels the Cowboy Bebop shows are no longer their form of entertainment.

Money is what it's all about. Don't buy creepy "moe" stuff and eventually our distributors may take notice.


I agree with you.
In the 1980s it was the Sci-Fi wave started by Star Wars that brought us shows like Space Battleship Yamato (Starblazers), Battle of the Planets (Gatchaman), Robotech (Macross, Southern Cross, Mospeada; Frankenstein monster that it was, it was still anime. Very Happy ), and the real first wave of anime into North America.
Why? Because there was money to be made off of the Sci-Fi craze of the 1980s.

The 90s wave came with Pokemon, Sailor Moon, DBZ, etc. because of the whole Magic the Gathering phenomena early in the decade, and the rise of anime-style video games on the SNES, SEGA, and eventually the PS1.
Anime took on a video-game feel in shows like G-Gundam, Macross 7, and even Neon Genesis Evangelion (each angel was kinda like a boss monster and each one got harder along the way until the final boss).
Again, the genre was driven by the money, not the other way around.

The early 2000s seem to be driven by a combination of interests (moe among them) which appear to have been spurred on by an interest in more dramatic story telling, like GITS, or Moribito, or Geass.

Now the swing seems to be shifting yet again as we head into the second decade of the 21st Century.
Where the money is taking it too I have no idea, but if I had to guess I'd say both more Sci-Fi and moe; since women are getting into the Giant-Robot genre, and men are gravitating towards moe.
We may even see a fusion of moe and Science-Fiction/Fantasy in the coming years.
I believe that Code Geass was the first of this fusion-type of storytelling, but I could be wrong. Wink
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:07 pm Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:
Make no mistake here, folks. I'm not at all challenging the "creepy moe" crap wouldn't be distributed here due to people's position on the material. But I absolutely fail to understand the position most of you seem to take that this is the only reason.


The only reason for what? I don't know who 'most of you' refers to but for the record, I'll say that I do not think moe is the only reason anime is in the state it's in. Not by a long shot. The biggest reason we're in the situation we are now is because the anime bubble became vastly overinflated and eventually burst in both Japan and North America. Sadly, people in the industry over-estimated their success, flooded the market and allowed costs to skyrocket. Even worse, the inevitable collapse largely coincided with two other factors. The first of which being anime losing it's novelty. This was inevitable but might have only resulted in a slight decrease in sales but coupled with the collapse in both the anime market itself as well as the general economic troubles and eventual collapse it all came together into one giant mess.

That said, while I concede that moe did not get us where we are (and admit that the article is pretty misleading in this regard) I do feel that moe and related issues are undoubtedly the main factor that is hurting the industry now. If the industry hopes to rebuild from this collapse they need to start expanding their audience again just like they did over the previous couple decades. Except they're not. Instead they've gone into their shell and are just milking the dwindling audience they have left. Sure that provides enough of an audience to get buy for now and that's great in the short term but what about long term? They can keep milking those otaku until the cows come home but eventually, they will come home and then who do you milk? That's probably the worst metaphor ever but you can see my point.

Quote:
I just believe it's ironic people are attacking "hardcore creepy moe" fans while not realizing the very same applies to our cartoons outside the child demographic.


First, Family Guy didn't get super popular until after it was brought back. Also, the fact that it was canceled serves more to demonstrate FOX's ineptitude than FG's lack of popularity. It's subsequent popularity confirms this. Secondly, you never mentioned Futurama initially. While I expect it's vastly more popular than most anime, it's no where near the level of the other three. It ran for a healthy four seasons and as you said, was later revived. If anything this demonstrates that even though it's kind of the ugly ducking of that whole animation family it's still hugely popular rather than the opposite as you claim.

In the end though, forget Family Guy. Forget Futurama. It's all irrelevant. If you feel that anime is equal in popularity to 'The Simpsons' then it is meaningless to converse with you. You exist on a plane separate from our own reality.
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Gideon Krieg



Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 27
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:53 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
First, Family Guy didn't get super popular until after it was brought back. Also, the fact that it was canceled serves more to demonstrate FOX's ineptitude than FG's lack of popularity. It's subsequent popularity confirms this. Secondly, you never mentioned Futurama initially. While I expect it's vastly more popular than most anime, it's no where near the level of the other three. It ran for a healthy four seasons and as you said, was later revived. If anything this demonstrates that even though it's kind of the ugly ducking of that whole animation family it's still hugely popular rather than the opposite as you claim.


I know for a fact that you are absolutely correct in stating that in so far as television ratings are concerned.
The [as] Nielsen numbers do not lie and they're posted on the [as] website's General Discussion TV board every Sunday night.

Family Guy, King of the Hill, the Boondocks, the PJs, Robot Chicken, and even the new Titan Maximum bury the anime on [as] in terms of ratings and have done so since they were first aired.
Futurama used to dominate Saturday night ratings until [as] lost the rights.
The Simpsons would kill nearly any anime it was put up against in terms of TV ratings.
Ratings are what drive marketing prices for airtime thus if a show can't bring home the bacon it gets canceled or shoved to the wee hours of the morning.

This is precisely why anime shows are disappearing off of North American TV channels.
The interest just isn't there and the ratings show it, thus no money from advertising is garnered.

I don't know about DVD sales, if anyone does please share this info because I'd love to know how well anime does verses other animated entertainment.

This article doesn't look like bad news to me if it forces a positive change in the industry. If in order to make money the anime industry has to cause some angst in its fanbase and branch out into more mainstream territory-then so be it.
It's not like the moe shows are going to vanish, there will just be fewer of them that's all.
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RHachicho



Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 897
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:42 am Reply with quote
Hmm i have looked up various definitions of the word Moe and have not come across something that makes me really understand it are we basically talking stuff like Shana here? If so I completely agree the idea of someone THAT young being portrayed in a sexual sense is just creepy and it completely put me off the show. I can't agree more that these lolita types need to be phased out they are annoying characters anyway. But I guess as long as the demand exists there will always be some shows along these lines. And in a country where someone married a virtual girl from a Bishoujo game .. anything is possible. I guess the only thing to do really is to boycott shows that try to sell based on Moe and vote with our wallets. The Anime studios will get the message eventually Smile.

Don't get me wrong though theres nothing wrong with "cute little girl" characters its when they are the involved with a love interest that things get creepy and wrong imho. For me something along the lines of Higurashi would not be cosidered Moe? (Im asking if im right about this as im not sure about my definition) As although the girls themselves bore some similarities to moe stereotypes they were never involved in any romance stories or subjected to fanservice. Or am I wrong ... ok I think im managing to confuse myself now. So i'l stop ranting and just say yeah Moe probably won't bury the industry alone but it certainly is not helping.

It could also be that the people that like the less creepy Anime don't spend as much on it. We all know the Otaku crowd spend a buttload on Anime each year yet many of us went through phases (myself included) where all I did was download fansubs. It got to the stage where somewhere in my mind I kind of stopped even thinking of buying Anime. Then again looking back if you don't pump at least some money into the industry you don't really have alot of leeway to b*tch about the direction that industry is taking.
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qollocust



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:46 pm Reply with quote
Jackmace Ryo wrote:

As a result, the industry focuses to the otaku industry. Now, I think this is actually a good thing. See, the market of entertainment in general is over saturated (which I believe resulting in anime never goes to the mainstream). A marketer brings a great point that what the industry should do in that climate is selling to the people who cares. In short, the otaku. But it shouldn't stop there, in the hope that the people who cares (otaku) creates buzz that eventually will interest people that usually does not care (the mainstream). In this aspect, the problem lies in that the shows that are popular in the otaku market are generally not accessible to the general market. What anime really needs is something that can appeal to both otaku and the general market like say, Neon Genesis Evangelion.


This is exactly what I was going to post after reading that article. I have been holding out for the "next big thing" for awhile now. Something originial, really well done, and has mass appeal. I think the recent lack of these sorts of shows has kept me away from new series for the last few years.

There really hasn't been anything major recently that can attract new casual fans like Bebop, Eva, or even Pokemon did. If the industry can pull itself together enough to produce something great then I think we will see anime maintaining the popularity it had during the mid 2000s. If not, then I've still got my late 90s era anime to keep me happy.
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pparker



Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 1185
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:07 pm Reply with quote
As to the definition of moe, keep in mind that moe in anime was a result of kawaii and the female Lolita sub-culture growing in popularity and then being reflected in entertainment (anime, idols, music, etc). Kawaii represents the whole "cute" obsession in Japan, e.g., Hello Kitty. The term lolita as used in reference to anime comes from that source and connection, and in fact is a misnomer, and especially causes confusion because of the book title. Rozen Maiden represents the most direct borrowing from Lolita sub-culture and lacks any sexual innuendo or connotation whatsoever.

Lolitas themselves in Japan are not motivated by trying to attract sexual attention, but by creating a cultural space for themselves that is outside the stultifying norm of traditional Japanese society. Their objective is kawaii, cute, not sexy. Moe derives from an emotional response to kawaii, which itself generates heated debate over its contribution to the degradation of Japanese society and the plummeting birth rate. Then manga, game and anime creators discover that cute combined with sexy sells by the boatload to socially inept males (duh).

Entertainment is both a reflection and a driver of culture, in a self-reinforcing feedback loop. What we normally regard as ground-breaking entertainment/art is when a show suddenly appears as a creator of a trend, rather than simply integrating already existing trends. Evangelion, Bebop, Yamato, etc, tapped into existing but unacknowledged emotions and thoughts in the audience, but only because they were also done very well in terms of aesthetics--story, character, art and all the other aspects of the creation.

Entertainment is cyclical, tastes change. Japanese tastes change as well, and as the otaku demographic shrinks, anime will discover and begin to reflect those changes, and one day even get ahead of the curve and produce something ground-breaking. Frankly the few moe shows this past season were all forgettable. I enjoy them as a diversion, but couldn't even be bothered to follow any of the new ones. It will likely continue as a genre or style, just like robot shows continue to be made for a particular demographic, but it certainly feels exhausted to me.

Another factor in operation, though, is that anime itself was always niche. The majority of Japanese don't watch anime. It isn't spread all over the channels, garnering huge audiences. The children's and family anime continuously hold the top ratings. The boom both in Japan and the U.S. was likely just that, a temporary phenomenon. I don't expect anime to die, but I truly see no reason for it to return to its 2005-2006 levels of popularity. Partly that feeling comes from anecdotal evidence, from being a parent of two boys who grew up digital during the anime boom. They were big fans of anime, being surrounded by it through the past decade. But today, at 20ish, neither is much interested in anime. They've moved on, as I naturally expect the majority of kids to do who grew up with anime fansubs.

It's also informed by observation of fandom on the Internet. Anime fans who interact and watch/buy anime continuously are by definition "hardcore". It's a small niche culture, these people who devote so much of their entertainment attention to anime. No anime series, no matter how impressive to us, is going to convert enormous numbers of Americans into the standard anime fan who continues in adulthood to watch at least 10 series a year, and probably far more--and that never did happen. The number of people who have never seen anime is declining as the digital age progresses. As the majority of childhood fans drop off, and a few don't, fandom for anime on the whole will likely maintain its numbers, maybe growing slightly. If fewer continue with it, then the anime sub-culture is going to stagnate. Bottom line, don't expect to convert large numbers of over-20's to this "hobby" any more than has ever occurred, which in real numbers is not a lot percentage-wise.

Not that it matters. Our concern is seeing something new in anime, something fresh and ground-breaking that gives us that Bebop feeling again. It will come, but not as some master marketing plan (which are virtually always based on the past--what already worked--not the unknown future), but from the mind of some creator who nails the emerging new mood or attitude before anyone really realizes it has arrived, and does it so aesthetically as to blow people away with the art alone.

That's my pollyanna view anyway Smile. The problem is, you can't predict these things. It may take awhile.
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RHachicho



Joined: 07 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:41 am Reply with quote
Ouch I didn't know things had gotten that bad in Japan ... still plummeting birth rates is probably a good thing with the world population crises the Japanese will probably still be living comfortably in 100 years whearas most other countries will be standing room only. Still thanks for clearing up my moe definition pparker. It is pretty much what I suspected however it's nice to have some clear confirmation. I also agree with alot of the things you said. Anime will always be a "niche" market however it has a certain quality that will always attract die hard fans like us to it Smile
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konaruki_hirasawa



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:02 am Reply with quote
Quote:

And in a country where someone married a virtual girl from a Bishoujo game .. anything is possible. I guess the only thing to do really is to boycott shows that try to sell based on Moe and vote with our wallets.


Then they would stop shipping "moe" outside the world and there'll probably be fewer anime being shipped out. Maybe...

Though I wonder if it's better to cater to the otaku (who number in thousands and spend a lot of money) than the mundanes (who number millions and nearly have zero spending...)
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