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Shelf Life - Road to El Cazador


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Lemoncookies23



Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:39 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
JairStout wrote:


Tell that to Erin!


You do realize that you complain and whine and act offended so much here that the staff doesn't listen to you at all, right?

I really don't care what your objections are. If you don't like Shelf Life, stop reading it and stay out of the forums thread for it.


Do you honestly think I care whether your staff listens to me or not? I've known for months now that you people don't budge an inch. I'm simply offering my opinions. Sure, I could stop posting altogether, but half the time what I say spawns interesting discussion (like in this thread).

But here's a question: if you don't listen to me and don't care about my objections, why did you bother responding to me now?
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Lemoncookies23



Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:03 am Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:
When I took over the column, it was explained to me that this was a less formal review format where I'm allowed to use the word "I" and be personal. Unfortunately, the Shelf Life mission statement is not spelled out formally on the site anywhere. You'll have to take my word for it.

Additionally, I was approached to take over the column specifically because of my style of writing.

I've been writing manga reviews for Publishers Weekly since 2007. Those are much more formal. I also write anime reviews for Otaku USA magazine, and that's how I got this job.


I'm want to believe you. Thank you for explaining.

Quote:
No one needs to actually wank to something for it to be wank material.


Interesting loop-hole. Disregarding the fact that I'm still floored to read the words "wank material" in a review (impersonal though it may be!) the implication put forth by your "moral objection" is grossly uncouth and inaccurate, which should have been evident to anyone reading, unless they (and you) equate "a more personal review" to "trashy, crass, and overly blunt pejoratives."

Quote:
A review is largely the reviewer's reaction to the show. I described my reaction. It seems as if you're looking for a more dry and technical review, which isn't really the purpose of Shelf Life.

How could I leave out the part about how I was deeply offended by the show? I would be lying by omission if all I said was "This was rather boring compared to the original series." It was both boring and it grossed me out.


No, I'm looking for a splendidly articulate, witty, and positively wet (as opposed to dry) review. Not: "I will now tell you my personal reactions to the show. They are as follows: Haven't seen the original actually. Good music. Bad subtitles. Pedo-bait. Ta-da!"
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CareyGrant



Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Posts: 451

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:18 am Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:
Case wrote:
review - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary wrote:

6 a : a critical evaluation (as of a book or play) b : a magazine devoted chiefly to reviews and essays

I encourage you to read the intro to this column:


And now I want a slice of pumpkin pie...

With all this unnecessary panty-bunching, I can't help but be reminded of a rather funny Anime News Nina re: a cellar dweller "Winning the Internet" in a flame war of silliness.

But enough of that...

Pass on El Cazador: boring and repetitive; never met a Robert Rodriguez movie it didn't like, but better than average musical score. Funnily enough, I thought the spoiler[ witch-cum-office executive was the most entertaining at times... should've made the show about her. ] Michiko to Hatchin, however, has caught my eye.

Gunslinger Girls: Loved the original, despite the almost illogical need for the assassins to be little girls/pre-teens (except to sell the story to audiences most likely). TOTALLY gun porn, which wasn't a bad thing. I'll probably take a pass on the sequels, more than likely.

And... since nobody's seen fit to comment: Nice Shelves! You've got quite the collection! I had my eye on a few I wouldn't mind watching right this minute.

Oh, and a chocolate chip cookie without chocolate chips is a sugar cookie (more or less).

Good Review.
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: IL

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:10 pm Reply with quote
GrilledEelHamatsu wrote:
Haven't you ever seen "Azumanga Daioh" Erin? There's at least 3 swimsuit episodes where Chiyo is wearing a bathing suit much like you see in the final episode of the GSG OVA. Did you find that wank material?

All we are trying to say is that you can't simply reduce every single depiction of a little girl in anime as loli-porn. It shouldn't be a liablity in your opinion.


I'd like to see Erin's response to this. Going to the beach and swimming are rather natural for kids to do, especially since Japan itself is a island nation (and the majority of Italy is bordered by water). I've seen the Teatrino OVA... and not once did the idea that they were exploiting Henrietta and the other girls ever come to mind.

The scene, like others have already explained, was simply to show that the girls can act normally. That while they have cybernetic implants and can kill anyone that their fratello asks them to kill, they also still retain that carefree spirit that adolescence is composed of.

For those who live in the US and are over 18, you can see the episode with subtitles on FUNimation's video portal here.

You'll see for yourself that there is nothing in the episode that comes even close to "wank material".. and that has to be the most hyperbolic exaggeration I've ever read on this site. It sounded like it came from someone uninformed and already had a preconception that anime=porn or something like that.
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GWOtaku



Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 622

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:17 pm Reply with quote
See, I can understand disagreeing. I can't understand the stereotyping of the opinion considering the good things Erin does say about Gunslinger Girl.
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
Get off my lawn!Get off my lawn!


Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 2251
Location: Bellevue, WA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:14 pm Reply with quote
GWOtaku wrote:
See, I can understand disagreeing. I can't understand the stereotyping of the opinion considering the good things Erin does say about Gunslinger Girl.


Some people just want something to be upset about. If you try, you're sure to find something that'll offend/annoy you. Going on and on about it, as some folks are doing, just proves that's what this is about.
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erinfinnegan
ANN Columnist


Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 598

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:45 pm Reply with quote
GrilledEelHamatsu wrote:
Haven't you ever seen "Azumanga Daioh" Erin? There's at least 3 swimsuit episodes where Chiyo is wearing a bathing suit much like you see in the final episode of the GSG OVA. Did you find that wank material?

I enjoy Azumanga Daioh, just like almost every anime fan. I like the manga a lot, too.

But, I am suspicious of Azumanga since it ran in a magazine for 30-something dudes. Specifically, I don't mind all the junior high girls with kitty cats on their underpants, that's fair enough. But I often feel creeped out about Chiyo-chan's inclusion in the show. If I didn't know anything about lolicon, or the magazine Azumanga ran in, I would feel better about it. If I didn't know about 4-chan or doujinshi or hug/hump pillows I wouldn't bat an eyelash.

I'd put Chiyo-chan on the second row of this chart.

GrilledEelHamatsu wrote:
All we are trying to say is that you can't simply reduce every single depiction of a little girl in anime as loli-porn. It shouldn't be a liablity in your opinion.

I know exactly what you're trying to say, but these things are going to influence my opinion.

Megiddo wrote:
I'd like to see Erin's response to this. Going to the beach and swimming are rather natural for kids to do... You'll see for yourself that there is nothing in the episode that comes even close to "wank material"...

I am tired of talking about this episode for now. I'll provide screengrabs and commentary on my livejournal later on when I'm not under other deadlines. Please look forward to my continued hyperbole, here and elsewhere.

JairStout wrote:
Quote:
No one needs to actually wank to something for it to be wank material.
Interesting loop-hole.

It's not a loophole. Good porn is wankable, bad porn is not wankable, but it is still porn. Perhaps you would find the term "fappable" less offensive to your prose standards.

And yes, I know everything can be porn, even a commercial for a broccoli sale at a locally grocery store, but we have to consider the intended audience for the work. Is it meant to be watched by grocery shoppers or otaku?

JairStout wrote:
"moral objection" is grossly uncouth and inaccurate,

I'm not sure how my description of my state of being could be inaccurate. Let me try to summarize:

Me: I feel morally offended.
You: Well, you're wrong about that.
Me: I'm wrong about how I feel?
You: Yes.
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Shale



Joined: 04 Dec 2002
Posts: 337
Location: The Middle of Nowhere, DE

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:00 pm Reply with quote
Exactly! If your opinion conflicts with my opinion, then you are objectively wrong. That's how the Internet works.
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Furudanuki



Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1874

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:41 pm Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:
I enjoy Azumanga Daioh, just like almost every anime fan. I like the manga a lot, too.

But, I am suspicious of Azumanga since it ran in a magazine for 30-something dudes. Specifically, I don't mind all the junior high girls with kitty cats on their underpants, that's fair enough.

I'm not sure whether I am more amused or appalled that someone who professes to enjoy Azumanga Daioh in both anime and manga form is under that impression that the girls are in junior high. Shocked Also, I don't think that a single panel featuring Sakaki - the student voted least likely to ever be mistaken for a loli - equates to an overabundance of girls with kitty-cat underpants. Laughing Lots of discussion about and grabbing of breasts can be found in Azumanga, but panties are kept under wraps for the most part.
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TC-man



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:26 pm Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:

I enjoy Azumanga Daioh, just like almost every anime fan. I like the manga a lot, too.

But, I am suspicious of Azumanga manga since it ran in a magazine for 30-something dudes. Specifically, I don't mind all the junior high girls with kitty cats on their underpants, that's fair enough. But I often feel creeped out about Chiyo-chan's inclusion in the show. If I didn't know anything about lolicon, or the magazine Azumanga ran in, I would feel better about it. If I didn't know about 4-chan or doujinshi or hug/hump pillows I wouldn't bat an eyelash.

I'd put Chiyo-chan on the second row of this chart.


Hi Erin,

If I am right the Azumanga originally ran in a shōnen magazine (Dengeki Daioh) from February 1999 – June 2002.* So you can now feel better about it.

And if you haven't read Yotsuba&! yet you should, since this slice of life manga has the similar light-hearted atmosphere and it's as funny as Azumanga if not funnier. Yotsuba&! is written and drawn by the same author/mangaka of Azumanga, Kiyohiko Azuma. Highly recommended!

I don't know whether you have confused Chiyo (orange hair) with Yotsuba (green hair) or not, when you are refering to sites like 4chan etc.. Well, what I can say is that Yotsuba can't do anything herself about the fact that she has become an icon for the mentioned site. Poor girl!
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7042
Location: Snake Mountain Cocktail Lounge

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:36 pm Reply with quote
JairStout wrote:

But here's a question: if you don't listen to me and don't care about my objections, why did you bother responding to me now?


Actually it spawns pretty much the same conversation every time: you hate it when a reviewer squicks over something they perceive as fetishy, and so you run into the forums to condescend about it. That's pretty much what this conversation comes down to every time.

The reason I respond to you is to determine whether or not I should just remove you from the forums or if you're not quite enough of a nuisance to ban yet.

You may find your feedback scintillating, but I find it repetitive, condescending, and predictable. Not only that it often just derails the thread into a neverending pit where you try and lecture the writer like they're the student and you're the master and they don't really respond in kind and so you keep going. It's white noise, doesn't add anything of value and becomes demoralizing for the writer when you basically repeatedly call them - and me - stupid, ignorant morons who don't know how to do our jobs.

Forgive me for not finding any value in that. You probably wouldn't want someone like you hanging around at your job either.
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Kyon27
Enjoying the time of EVEEnjoying the time of EVE


Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 83
Location: Lake Stevens, WA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:44 pm Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:
I am tired of talking about this episode for now. I'll provide screengrabs and commentary on my livejournal later on when I'm not under other deadlines. Please look forward to my continued hyperbole, here and elsewhere.


Sigh...Erin, I don't know why you keep getting so much crap about your shelf life columns week after week. I don't remember Bamboo ever being told off so much, and I believe you're every bit as good a writer/reviewer. Truth be told, I don't really agree with you on this whole Gunslinger Girl debate, but I'm not going to give you any grief about it. I mean, jeez, everyone's entitled to an opinion right? Lately all I hear from a lot of people is, "You're entitled to an opinion, as long as it's mine!" Right now I'm starting to wonder if this thread will keep going even after you post next week's column. I hope not.

Even though I tended to be more in line with Bamboo's opinions than yours, I believe you're doing a fantastic job and yours is the column I look forward to the most each week (except maybe for Astro Toy, when there is one). Keep up the good work, and don't let the whining get you down.
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: IL

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:02 pm Reply with quote
Kyon27 wrote:
Truth be told, I don't really agree with you on this whole Gunslinger Girl debate, but I'm not going to give you any grief about it. I mean, jeez, everyone's entitled to an opinion right? Lately all I hear from a lot of people is, "You're entitled to an opinion, as long as it's mine!"


Absolutely she is entitled to an opinion. However, if she types up that opinion and publishes it on a popular site than she should understand that her opinion is open to scrutiny, and if she wants to maintain her views, than she should support them.

I just watched the OVA. There's about maybe 15 seconds of Henrietta and Rico in non-revealing swimwear playing in the water at the beach. In that same scene there is about a minute of shirtless Jean and Jose/Giuseppe. Maybe she meant that the OVA was targeted at women and she meant that it would get the females masturbating? I don't know.
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Lemoncookies23



Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:27 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
JairStout wrote:

But here's a question: if you don't listen to me and don't care about my objections, why did you bother responding to me now?


Actually it spawns pretty much the same conversation every time: you hate it when a reviewer squicks over something they perceive as fetishy, and so you run into the forums to condescend about it. That's pretty much what this conversation comes down to every time.

The reason I respond to you is to determine whether or not I should just remove you from the forums or if you're not quite enough of a nuisance to ban yet.

You may find your feedback scintillating, but I find it repetitive, condescending, and predictable. Not only that it often just derails the thread into a neverending pit where you try and lecture the writer like they're the student and you're the master and they don't really respond in kind and so you keep going. It's white noise, doesn't add anything of value and becomes demoralizing for the writer when you basically repeatedly call them - and me - stupid, ignorant morons who don't know how to do our jobs.

Forgive me for not finding any value in that. You probably wouldn't want someone like you hanging around at your job either.


Even though they're generally not worth anything to anybody on a meaningless little internet forum such as this, I'd rather post my opinions than not do so at all. It's like voting: it doesn't matter, but I do it anyway to sustain the illusion that it makes a difference. The fact that you are so constantly perturbed by my opinions is both odd and amusing. And if I'm one your major headaches at "work," then you have an amazingly stress-free job, at least in comparison with mine. So quit complaining! Wink

Edit: Now that I think about it, if you want to delete my account, that'd be fine with me. I changed my email recently and was considering making a new one anyway.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 12996
Location: NZL

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:53 pm Reply with quote
JairStout wrote:
Edit: Now that I think about it, if you want to delete my account, that'd be fine with me. I changed my email recently and was considering making a new one anyway.


Dude, then he'll just IP ban you, forcing you to have to use another computer from a friend/university/work/whatever. A proxy might work, but that's outside my knowledge.

But the moral of the story is, don't be rude* in the expectation that you can always make a new account.



*
I say this in a general sense, so I'm not commenting on you specifically.
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