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Princess_Irene



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 776
Location: The castle beyond the Goblin City

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:17 am Reply with quote
bravetailor wrote:
More damning about American media is just how many young female stars have been dropped by promotion companies after hitting age 25, and the amount of venom the hype machine spews toward some of these "aging" females. Bring them up when they're young and take them down when they're no longer young and vogue, right? To me that hints at the larger trend in America of exploitation of young females. Disney is the master of this, and I can't believe nobody has actually analyzed it further.


Damn, I was going to try and stay out of this thread.

CTV (Canadian TV) did analyze this in a report, oh, four odd years ago. They focused on how sex is being peddled to younger and younger children with girls being told that "sexy" is what they should strive for. Boys, conversely, are being taught that girls are sex objects. (I believe they used GTA to make their case.) Most disturbing to me was the discussion with the company that makes Bratz. The representative told CTV that Bratz were better than Barbie because they were just about fashion and looking pretty and hot while Barbie had to be a doctor or a lawyer or something. Honestly, I find that much more upsetting than little girls in swimsuits in anime. Maybe I just haven't seen the right (wrong?) shows, but I think we have bigger fish to fry in the sexualization of minors.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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Location: NZL

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:18 pm Reply with quote
Princess_Irene wrote:
The representative told CTV that Bratz were better than Barbie because they were just about fashion and looking pretty and hot while Barbie had to be a doctor or a lawyer or something.


It is a sad, sad day for girls everywhere if Barbie is held up as a modicum of what girls should strive for.

Link.

Link.

Link.

Bratz are worse, but Barbie isn't innocent either.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 7208
Location: England, UK

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:32 pm Reply with quote
Erin it's a shame you didn't finish Noir. If you did I think you wouldn't have felt as strongly about El Caz being better. It is widely felt, by those who have seen all the other Bee Train wannabe Noir sequels, that they were a failure and lamented that BT wasted value time and money making them when they could have made a proper sequel. Afterall the Director did strongly hint at the end of Noir that that would happen if enough interest was shown, which I presume it did for them to make two look alikes.
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Princess_Irene



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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Location: The castle beyond the Goblin City

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:28 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:

It is a sad, sad day for girls everywhere if Barbie is held up as a modicum of what girls should strive for.
Bratz are worse, but Barbie isn't innocent either.


Oh man, I didn't mean to imply that Barbie was the ideal for little girls! In fact, as a little girl, my My Little Ponies frequently stampeded the Barbies people insisted on giving me. My point was more that Barbie at least had the occasional aspiration to be a doctor or a vet where Bratz are just about looking sexy. Barbie suffers from that too, no doubt about it, but at least her slogan used to be "We girls can do anything."

Personally I would like to see all "fashion" dolls go away. But that is neither here nor there in this thread.
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bravetailor



Joined: 30 May 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:34 am Reply with quote
Princess_Irene wrote:


Personally I would like to see all "fashion" dolls go away. But that is neither here nor there in this thread.


That would be a little extreme, though? I don't think it's sexist to say that many little girls (and some boys) like to play dress up. It's a common compulsion that dates way back before Barbie, way back before Victorian England, way back before the medieval ages.

It's not the "dress up" part that's the problem, it's the fact that companies are telling kids what to like. The thing with Barbie, at least, is that you can go to a shelf full of 9-10 differently dressed Barbies and you can ask your kid to pick a Barbie based on what looks best to them. With Bratz, they're all pretty much the same look.

But then, that's not just a problem with youth, adults fall for the same tricks as well. It's more of a social phenomemon than strictly an advertising based one.
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Princess_Irene



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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Location: The castle beyond the Goblin City

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:20 pm Reply with quote
bravetailor wrote:

That would be a little extreme, though? I don't think it's sexist to say that many little girls (and some boys) like to play dress up. It's a common compulsion that dates way back before Barbie, way back before Victorian England, way back before the medieval ages.

It's not the "dress up" part that's the problem, it's the fact that companies are telling kids what to like. The thing with Barbie, at least, is that you can go to a shelf full of 9-10 differently dressed Barbies and you can ask your kid to pick a Barbie based on what looks best to them. With Bratz, they're all pretty much the same look.


You're absolutely right on both counts. (And I've clearly been hitting the feminist lit crit a bit too hard lately Smile) The major difference I see between Barbie and Bratz is just as you said - Barbie gives the child more of a choice. I remember one I was given as a child that was something along the lines of Business Woman Barbie - she wore a suit that could be turned inside out to become a dress for an evening out. That seems to me to be a much more positive message than a Bratz that comes with two prosti-tot outfits. It is the message, not the doll, that bears the brunt of my scrutiny.

Neither is perfect. Personally dolls did not hold my interest when I was little, and I'm sure that influences my feelings on the subject. What was so alarming about the comment on CTV that started this subdiscussion was that the Bratz representative seemed to feel that girls should only aspire to be pretty and sexy rather than be both that and successful. And as you said, that's a burden born by children and adults alike.
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bravetailor



Joined: 30 May 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:02 pm Reply with quote
Princess_Irene wrote:

You're absolutely right on both counts. (And I've clearly been hitting the feminist lit crit a bit too hard lately Smile) .


It is horrifying for me to realize that I'm with you all the way on this. Laughing I used to drop university classes from my sched because they got too "feminist lit crit" for me. Hell, my friends often chide me for watching too much "misogynist 1950s Film Noir crap" where every 3rd film noir I watch (and I watch my fair share of them) feature women getting treated roughly, slapped, or forced on regularly.

So if I'm able to see something as questionably sexist, it MUST be pretty blatant!
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zensunni



Joined: 05 Mar 2010
Posts: 814

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:44 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
GWOtaku wrote:
I hate creepy fanbase pandering as much as anyone, but in this case your condemnation is really off of the mark. The girls' situation is disturbing, there's no doubt about that, but I never once felt that it was being fetishized in any way.


Yet, everything that any of the girls can do, so can a man. Or, if they really want a female, then pick a woman. Or, if they really need someone who is young and therefore underestimated by their opponents (a completely laughable idea which doesn't work in reality and even if it did it still wouldn't be a good tradeoff), then a teenage girl. But there is no reason for the girls to be that gender and that age in the first place, other than to appeal to certain fans.

I notice the story was originally a doujinshi; why am I not surprised?

Except that there is a reason for the use of young girls stated in the story. The process of turning a person into a cyborg and the brainwashing/programming called "conditioning" is not easy on the body. It doesn't work well with adults and tends to work best with adolescent girls. (It is unclear whether it would work with boys too, or if there is something about the female anatomy/brain structure that allows for more successful cyborg conversion.)

If you still haven't watched the first season, you really should give it a whirl. You may not find that you like it, but thinking it is a wank-fest is not a valid reason to dismiss this series. It is disturbing, touching, and thought provoking at almost every turn. The only complaint I have with the first season is that the overall story doesn't flow well and there is a bit too much repetition in some of the episodes. If there were a stronger running plot-line for the whole season, it would be a classic, albeit a disturbing one. As it is, many of the individual episodes are some of the best anime I have seen. I just wish it had more continuity across the season.

In short, I think you are missing the point with this one. It is not about action and little girls doing a grown man's job. In many cases, it is little girls doing jobs that no one should be doing, the moral and ethical issues of counter-terrorism, and when the line is crossed and the government becomes as bad as the terrorists. It is a show that makes you think. From your statements, I would think that you would enjoy that.
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