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GWOtaku



Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 622

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:42 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
I don't know why Bored_Ming's post got deleted, but I'll reply to it nonetheless.

I see what you're saying. That the girls are girls in the first place not to appeal to a fetish but to appeal to the nurturing side programmed into people.

So - at the risk of setting off a bomb - it is, essentially, Moe.

Well, isn't Moe a fetish? So wasn't I right all along? Well, okay, it isn't "wank-material", but that was Erin's terminology anyway (regarding the OVA's second episode), and I was just latching onto that.


jenthehen wrote:


At it's root, GSG is a more serious psychological study almost on par with Now and Then, Here and There (as I mentioned before) - although it IS less intense.

Girls can be "cute" and you can pity them without it being moe, fetishy, or anything like that ... maybe step back from the anime world/fandom for awhile and think about how real humans react to broken little girls/children in bad situations.

Not to mention that this is a show with no fanservice (except for perhaps violence?) The show is heartbreaking and realistic. (First season, at least - I can't speak for all of Teatrino or the OVA).

SakechanBD wrote:


I don't think GSG is a moe show... but I do think the girls are moe. They *do* bring out feelings of protectiveness in me. They *do* make me go "Awwww" and want to hug them and make everything okay.

They may be well-trained crack cybernetic assassins, but at their very core, they are still little girls. That contrast is one of the best parts of the show. These girls can kill people ruthlessly and efficiently... but at the end of the day, they just want their Brothers to be proud of them. Their personal interactions with their handlers are more of a focal point of the series, rather than the killing and the action, I think.


I think the words quoted above basically sum things up. It's been a very interesting discussion to say the least, and I see where everybody's coming from. At the end of the day though, if what we're supposed to feel for the girls is supposed to be "moe" or what have you, then so be it. The word I would use for this is empathy, and I consider that to be very much human rather than creepy. I would be certainly be more worried if one felt nothing, having witnessed their plight. It may be there are otaku sad enough to romanticize it, but the blame for that falls on them rather than the show and its storytelling from what I've seen.
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Lemoncookies23



Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:49 am Reply with quote
GWOtaku wrote:
JairStout wrote:


A most ironic accusation. In my post, you will notice that I came to the very same conclusion about her reviews! But apparently what I said was a prolonged insult. I'm curious, to stave off my coming observation that you are a hypocrite, would you care to explain why my post is a prolonged insult? (Ah, yet another irony!)


Unfortunately, your comeback relies on the silly idea that your post is completely equal to the quality of review, which suggests both a lack of attention to what was written and a severe lack of self-awareness. But all right, you ask me to eviscerate you in detail. I will oblige you one and only one response and lay everything out clearly. Another post like the above will be simply ignored.

Here is what you said.

Quote:
In my worthless opinion, these "reviews" are terrible. It's like reading a glorified forum post (and that may even be too complimentary). At least Kimlinger, Martin, and the other reviewers here write with good prose. That is to say, they actually sound professional.


The components of this are as follows: the writing is terrible, it lacks the prose that other writers possess, and it's unprofessional. That's it. Nowhere do you say why.

Quote:
Erin, if you feel you must be use pejoratives and inject your petty morals into the reviews, then at least do so with class! The GG OVA is a "wank-fest?" Really? Smooth.... For the record, and unlike you, I have seen all of GG and plan on buying the OVA. Furthermore, I don't plan on masturbating to it, despite however much you think I should according to your supposed "morals."


Here you simply scoff at her moral objection, which is limited to only a single episode. You waste some words boasting that you've seen more Gunslinger Girl than the writer has. The closest thing to an actual response is a "Really?", as if what is wrong with what she said is supposed to be somehow self-evident. You basically say that you simply disagree and then default to the would-be rebel attitude, declaring that you will watch and buy regardless of what she says. That's a useful attitude for patting yourself on the back and not much else.

So yeah, there is obviously no substance in your post. You insult her writing and then declare yourself a rebellious true fan. Not very impressive. It basically boils down to "you don't like that episode! Well I do, so screw you!"

In contrast, let's look at some of what the column actually said--the column you claim I am a hypocrite for not condemning as a prolonged insult.

Quote:
I have nothing against Gunslinger Girl as a series, from what I've seen, which is admittedly only the first few episodes. In fact, I like the idea of elementary school girls carrying large automatic weapons. I like the sci-fi elements. The Italian music and the lush settings add a really classy, unique touch. I appreciate the complicated relationships the girls have with their handlers, who are at once coworkers, older brothers and father figures.


A positive paragraph in a column you insist is a prolonged insult. It's right there, unambiguously in the open!

Quote:
So although the Gunslinger Girl OVA contains all of the positive qualities above, I didn't enjoy it as much as I might like the series, given the chance.


So it has good qualities from the first series. You and the writer both like the original series! Then there's the phrase "I didn't enjoy it as much..." Not "I hate it." Not "only lolicon creeps could ever enjoy this OVA." And so you are proven wrong. Again.

Then there's a paragraph about the bad subtitles for the extras on the disc. All this is substance, not blind invective.

Quote:
The entire episode feels like a gross double date between 20-something men and 10-year-old girls.

I found this episode of Gunslinger Girls offensive. I didn't think the rest of Gunslinger Girl was upsetting, just this one episode.


There you go. This is reasonable. It might be wrong and one might disagree with it (I very well might when I see it), but it's reasonable. Perhaps there is a valid, understandable, well-written reason for Jose to have Henrietta wear his sister's old clothes. But if there is, you sure didn't offer one. You didn't care to offer one. You were interested in insults. She was interested in offering honest, pithy reasons for why she didn't think it was up to the standards of what she's seen in GSG's TV series.


Why bother to respond to me at all if you have no intention of continuing after this post? Irregardless, I will respond now.

(1) My point was that there was no quality in her review. Absent the professionalism I see elsewhere, I don't feel obligated to honor her status. (2) Injecting one's own morality into a review is pathetic. I don't read reviews to get a better understanding of the reviewers' sense of morality. I don't care! Short of offering a philosophical treatise on why and how a moral system can be rationally established, whether it is objective or subjective or not, and how said complaints of the show fit into such a system, objecting with "moral outrage" is meaningless to me. (3) So yes, it should be self-evident that such an argument is unprofessional. Sure, she offered legitimate objections, such as the subtitles, and liked some of the OVA, such as the music, but these things don't "balance out" the overall blunt tone and utterly ridiculous objection of her review.


Last edited by Lemoncookies23 on Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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TC-man



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:56 am Reply with quote
JairStout wrote:
GWOtaku wrote:
JairStout wrote:


A most ironic accusation. In my post, you will notice that I came to the very same conclusion about her reviews! But apparently what I said was a prolonged insult. I'm curious, to stave off my coming observation that you are a hypocrite, would you care to explain why my post is a prolonged insult? (Ah, yet another irony!)


Unfortunately, your comeback relies on the silly idea that your post is completely equal to the quality of review, which suggests both a lack of attention to what was written and a severe lack of self-awareness. But all right, you ask me to eviscerate you in detail. I will oblige you one and only one response and lay everything out clearly. Another post like the above will be simply ignored.

Here is what you said.

Quote:
In my worthless opinion, these "reviews" are terrible. It's like reading a glorified forum post (and that may even be too complimentary). At least Kimlinger, Martin, and the other reviewers here write with good prose. That is to say, they actually sound professional.


The components of this are as follows: the writing is terrible, it lacks the prose that other writers possess, and it's unprofessional. That's it. Nowhere do you say why.

Quote:
Erin, if you feel you must be use pejoratives and inject your petty morals into the reviews, then at least do so with class! The GG OVA is a "wank-fest?" Really? Smooth.... For the record, and unlike you, I have seen all of GG and plan on buying the OVA. Furthermore, I don't plan on masturbating to it, despite however much you think I should according to your supposed "morals."


Here you simply scoff at her moral objection, which is limited to only a single episode. You waste some words boasting that you've seen more Gunslinger Girl than the writer has. The closest thing to an actual response is a "Really?", as if what is wrong with what she said is supposed to be somehow self-evident. You basically say that you simply disagree and then default to the would-be rebel attitude, declaring that you will watch and buy regardless of what she says. That's a useful attitude for patting yourself on the back and not much else.

So yeah, there is obviously no substance in your post. You insult her writing and then declare yourself a rebellious true fan. Not very impressive. It basically boils down to "you don't like that episode! Well I do, so screw you!"

In contrast, let's look at some of what the column actually said--the column you claim I am a hypocrite for not condemning as a prolonged insult.

Quote:
I have nothing against Gunslinger Girl as a series, from what I've seen, which is admittedly only the first few episodes. In fact, I like the idea of elementary school girls carrying large automatic weapons. I like the sci-fi elements. The Italian music and the lush settings add a really classy, unique touch. I appreciate the complicated relationships the girls have with their handlers, who are at once coworkers, older brothers and father figures.


A positive paragraph in a column you insist is a prolonged insult. It's right there, unambiguously in the open!

Quote:
So although the Gunslinger Girl OVA contains all of the positive qualities above, I didn't enjoy it as much as I might like the series, given the chance.


So it has good qualities from the first series. You and the writer both like the original series! Then there's the phrase "I didn't enjoy it as much..." Not "I hate it." Not "only lolicon creeps could ever enjoy this OVA." And so you are proven wrong. Again.

Then there's a paragraph about the bad subtitles for the extras on the disc. All this is substance, not blind invective.

Quote:
The entire episode feels like a gross double date between 20-something men and 10-year-old girls.

I found this episode of Gunslinger Girls offensive. I didn't think the rest of Gunslinger Girl was upsetting, just this one episode.


There you go. This is reasonable. It might be wrong and one might disagree with it (I very well might when I see it), but it's reasonable. Perhaps there is a valid, understandable, well-written reason for Jose to have Henrietta wear his sister's old clothes. But if there is, you sure didn't offer one. You didn't care to offer one. You were interested in insults. She was interested in offering honest, pithy reasons for why she didn't think it was up to the standards of what she's seen in GSG's TV series.


Why bother to respond to me at all if you have no intention of continuing after this post? Irregardless, I will respond now.

(1) My point was that there was no quality in her review. Absent the professionalism I see elsewhere, I don't feel obligated to honor her status. (2) Injecting one's own morality into a review is pathetic. I don't read reviews to get a better understanding of the reviewers' sense of morality. I don't care! Short of offering a philosophical treatise on why and how a moral system can be rationally established, whether it is objective or subjective or not, and how your objections fit said system, your "moral outrage" is meaningless to me. (3) So yes, it should be self-evident that such an argument is unprofessional. Sure, she offered legitimate objections, such as the subtitles, and liked some of the OVA, such as the music, but these things don't "balance out" the overall blunt tone and utterly ridiculous objection of her review.


Well, I don't think the "morality" talk is the problem here. But here it feels like the talk about morality is a bit off, since the OVA of Gunslinger Girls is pretty okay and it's not about something that's perverse at all. If this is the case it wouldn't be available in the US market, just like Kodomo no Jikan.
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Lemoncookies23



Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:58 am Reply with quote
TC-man wrote:
Well, I don't think the "morality" talk is the problem here. But here it feels like the talk about morality is a bit off, since the OVA of Gunslinger Girls is pretty okay and it's not about something that's perverse at all. If this is the case it wouldn't be available in the US market, just like Kodomo no Jikan.


Tell that to Erin!
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John Casey



Joined: 31 May 2009
Posts: 1853
Location: In My Angry Center

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:21 pm Reply with quote
Ok! I'm a bit gorram lost. I've found a review or two puzzling on Erin's behalf every now and then, but can someone here just flat-out explain to me the controversy?

Every time! Every time she posts Self Life, it's Vietnam War all over again in here...
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jenthehen



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 451
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:40 pm Reply with quote
lol ... well, after somebody uses the 'word' "irregardless" then we can pretty much discount everything he or she says. Razz
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7008
Location: Snake Mountain Cocktail Lounge

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:59 pm Reply with quote
JairStout wrote:


Tell that to Erin!


You do realize that you complain and whine and act offended so much here that the staff doesn't listen to you at all, right?

I really don't care what your objections are. If you don't like Shelf Life, stop reading it and stay out of the forums thread for it.
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Veers



Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 1184
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:09 pm Reply with quote
JairStout wrote:
professionalism

Quote:
"Irregardless"

Quote:
most ironic

Delicious.
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Kyon27
Enjoying the time of EVEEnjoying the time of EVE


Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 83
Location: Lake Stevens, WA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:38 pm Reply with quote
jenthehen wrote:
lol ... well, after somebody uses the 'word' "irregardless" then we can pretty much discount everything he or she says. Razz


Damn, you beat me to it! A 'Bushism' is it not? Wink
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GrilledEelHamatsu



Joined: 02 Sep 2009
Posts: 703

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:47 pm Reply with quote
tuxedocat wrote:
JairStout wrote:
In my worthless opinion, these "reviews" are terrible. It's like reading a glorified forum post (and that may even be too complimentary). At least Kimlinger, Martin, and the other reviewers here write with good prose. That is to say, they actually sound professional.

Erin, if you feel you must be use pejoratives and inject your petty morals into the reviews, then at least do so with class! The GG OVA is a "wank-fest?" Really? Smooth.... For the record, and unlike you, I have seen all of GG and plan on buying the OVA. Furthermore, I don't plan on masturbating to it, despite however much you think I should according to your supposed "morals."


Actually, I thought the moniker "wank-fest" was pretty darn funny, although I think she should have saved it for a review of something like Chu-Bra. I don't think it applies all that well to GSG (even though I haven't seen the OVA, I thought the series was very good).

Oh, and I don't plan on masturbating either. Everyone who has NO plans to masturbate, raise your non-busy hand.... Razz


Who the hell would get off on Gunslinger Girl? Whoever has seen the entire series wouldn't be turned on by any of the characters or thier maladjusted murdeous tendencies. I don't understand what your getting at Ms. Erin, there's nobody who watches this series that feels compelled to pull out thier jimmy and start spanking it when they see the little murderous assassin girls. You need to watch the entire series from season 1 to understand what I'm talking about.

You would have to be a sick person to want to fap to this title.





As for Chu-Bra. The series is still WAY too new for God's sakes. Wait there's actaully people that will jack off to an fansubbed ecchi that hasn't gotten ranchy yet and where they haven't even gotten to know the characters?
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erinfinnegan
ANN Columnist


Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 598

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:47 pm Reply with quote
jenthehen wrote:
however, know some folks who would be offended by this, though (people who only wanted to graduate high school, get married, and have a baby).

At one point I started to put something in the review about how those are fine life choices, or specifically about how being a homemaker is a totally legitimate career, but I ended up dropping the sentence.

Anyway, even people I know who only went to high school, got married, and had kids have more than one interest and hobbies and stuff.

Pneumekian wrote:
As for the review, I've seen CAS and I think I understand your view of Nagisa, although I feel very differently about it. I happen to be a man who likes more, for lack of a better word, "traditional" women and Nagisa seems to be catering to that preference. However, I can see how she would be boring or lacking in ambition to a more modern, independent woman. Well, different cups of tea, as you said.

I don't mind her lack of ambition, she's just totally boring. Even when she gets drunk she doesn't have anything interesting to say - she just asks her husband if he's interested in her mother!?! Which is gross, but I was really disappointed she didn't say anything that would give us more insight into her inner self.

PetrifiedJello wrote:
As for El Cazador, does the narration happen only at the beginning or is it throughout the episode? When I read this, I instantly thought of the same approach taken with Blade Runner and it was... ugh.

It's not Blade Runner bad! Don't worry. Also they lay off a bit on it after a while. It's just the beginning and end of the episodes, not throughout.

PetrifiedJello wrote:
Also, between Noir and Madlax, which do you prefer? Would this series fall between them?

Anime smile + sweatdrop I never finished watching Noir, and never saw Madlax, so it's hard to say...

vashfanatic wrote:
For Erin: since you brought up Michiko & Hatchin, I was curious how much of that you've seen and what you thought of it.

I'm on episode 20, I think. I like it a lot, but it was hard to get into at first.


Prede wrote:
Although I haven't seen the Gunslinger Girl OVAs yet (got it for Christmas along with the second season), I kind of think you may have gone overboard a bit with that.

The last episode was really not typical of the rest of the series. I tried to say that in the column a couple of times. The last episode was really bad. Even the second-to-last episode wasn't that bad.

Gewürtztraminer wrote:
If the first Gunslinger girls was any kind of porn, it was gun porn. [snip] Do not be upset with the bestowed wank worthy moniker unless you really get off on guns, and want your secret to remain safe.

I thought that comment was a bit off the mark.

The last episode was unfortunately lacking in gun porn, atypical of the rest of the show.

JairStout wrote:
In my worthless opinion, these "reviews" are terrible. It's like reading a glorified forum post (and that may even be too complimentary). At least Kimlinger, Martin, and the other reviewers here write with good prose. That is to say, they actually sound professional.

When I took over the column, it was explained to me that this was a less formal review format where I'm allowed to use the word "I" and be personal. Unfortunately, the Shelf Life mission statement is not spelled out formally on the site anywhere. You'll have to take my word for it.

Additionally, I was approached to take over the column specifically because of my style of writing.

I've been writing manga reviews for Publishers Weekly since 2007. Those are much more formal. I also write anime reviews for Otaku USA magazine, and that's how I got this job.

JairStout wrote:
Furthermore, I don't plan on masturbating to it, despite however much you think I should according to your supposed "morals."

No one needs to actually wank to something for it to be wank material.

JairStout wrote:
(2) Injecting one's own morality into a review is pathetic.

A review is largely the reviewer's reaction to the show. I described my reaction. It seems as if you're looking for a more dry and technical review, which isn't really the purpose of Shelf Life.

How could I leave out the part about how I was deeply offended by the show? I would be lying by omission if all I said was "This was rather boring compared to the original series." It was both boring and it grossed me out.
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 3782

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:09 pm Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:
It's not Blade Runner bad! Don't worry. Also they lay off a bit on it after a while. It's just the beginning and end of the episodes, not throughout.

Sold. While not a great fan of Noir and Madlax, they were still decent series to watch.
Thanks for the clarification.
*adds to wish list*
Smile
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8JF



Joined: 02 Nov 2007
Posts: 88

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:27 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:

Half of doujinshi are Yaoi, Yuri or Hentai.


That link has one serious problem. It fails to mention its sources for that statement or any others.
Janet Houck wrote:
About half of all doujinshi is hentai, yuri or yaoi, especially the titles that parody popular works, or which use alternative worlds to pair up their favorite characters in a series. This huge percentage of H-doujinshi, or ero manga is due to the sheer demand for adult content (nothing sells like pornography...), and because publishers must adhere to a certain code of conduct, while doujinshi does not. This practice has tainted Western perception of doujinshi as a whole, rendering it as nothing but fanfiction pornography in the eyes of Western readers.

Did you notice the weasel word at the start of the actual quote?
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jenthehen



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 451
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:34 pm Reply with quote
8JF wrote:
dtm42 wrote:

Half of doujinshi are Yaoi, Yuri or Hentai.


That link has one serious problem. It fails to mention its sources for that statement or any others.
Janet Houck wrote:
About half of all doujinshi is hentai, yuri or yaoi, especially the titles that parody popular works, or which use alternative worlds to pair up their favorite characters in a series. This huge percentage of H-doujinshi, or ero manga is due to the sheer demand for adult content (nothing sells like pornography...), and because publishers must adhere to a certain code of conduct, while doujinshi does not. This practice has tainted Western perception of doujinshi as a whole, rendering it as nothing but fanfiction pornography in the eyes of Western readers.

Did you notice the weasel word at the start of the actual quote?


Oh man ... I love me some weasel words. Anime hyper
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Veers



Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 1184
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:49 pm Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:
JairStout wrote:
t;](2) Injecting one's own morality into a review is pathetic.

A review is largely the reviewer's reaction to the show. I described my reaction. It seems as if you're looking for a more dry and technical review, which isn't really the purpose of Shelf Life.
I think JS is confusing a report (an objective, unopinionated* article explaining the content/theme/messages) with a review (a personal reaction to the content/theme/messages).

Reading reviews without personal opinion is boring; it's like making chocolate chip cookies without the chocolate chips. I dunno about you but I like my chocolate chip cookies to have the chocolate chips in them.

*(no such thing)
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