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Shelf Life - Road to El Cazador


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erinfinnegan
ANN Columnist


Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 598

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:33 pm Reply with quote
GrilledEelHamatsu wrote:
If Erin thinks that the episode is in anyway repugant, then she obviously has NEVER seen the wanker "Aika-16 Virgin Mission" which is just pure fanservice porn. It's got enough explict panty shots and nipple and cunts to force anyone to want to masturbate to. Now that's a vivid thought.

Let the record show that I am not offended by sex or sexuality. I am offended by wank material involving children. I know about half of the forum supports me on this and the other half are offended by my saying so, and let's leave it at that.

Most of Gunslinger Girl is NOT straight-up wank, just the last episode, which most of you have never even seen. Whether or not the underlying purpose of the work was to create wank material or what - that's something only the creator of the work knows for sure.

I haven't seen Agent Aika - but I have seen Najica: Blitz Tactics.
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TC-man



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:47 pm Reply with quote
Prede wrote:
Case wrote:
erinfinnegan wrote:
I think a lot of you are taking this whole reviewing business in a way it was never intended. Surely every review the readers disagree with does not need to melt into a meta-discussion about what the word "review" means.


I only bring the quotes into play because it seems to bear repeating. American comic-book writer Steven Grant's opinion notwithstanding, you do really believe with conviction that "I had moral problems with the second episode" makes good reviews?


Not that I agree with her opinion at all (that anything in Gunslinger Girl bothers me morally), but many reviewers take into consideration if something is morally repulsing. Ever read a Roger Ebert review? Read this one. Now that should never be the main focus of a review, but if the show is totally and utterly offenseive, shouldn't that be mentioned? If a film is almost snuff (for example), I'd like to know how offensive it is before I even consider watching it/buying it. I do agree Erin seems to focus on this a lot (perhaps too much IMO but what do I know. IMO I'd only focus on it if it was so terrible/offensive that it detracts pleasure from the show, something really horrible yah know? but that's me), but you can't ignore it either.


The Gunslinger Girl OVA is not repulsive or offensive at all; the beach scene Erin is talking about is about 1 to 2 minutes before the final OVA episode ends; the bikinis the girls are wearing are fairly normal, there's no fanservice and no specific (zoom) shots to body parts every lolicon wants to see. For me the socalled "date" between the cyborg handler and the girl feels more like going out and relaxing somewhere after hard work (like big brother & little sister or even father & daughter). Nothing sexuals happens, if I remember it correctly they never hug or kiss each other; the guy merely pat the girl on her shoulder; I think the old clothes of the deceased sister is too emphasized on the word "old"; spoiler[I think Jose is seeing Henriette more than a tool for assassination, he sees her as a human-being, as his sister, that's why he gives his sister's dress to Henriette].

I admit Gunslinger Girl OVA is not as good as the first series, it is just above average, but there's some interesting character development in the first OVA episode. I find the term "dicey wank material" to describe the second (final) episode of the OVA to be quite misleading, especially for someone who has read the manga and watched the TV series. I also see a little bit sarcasm in that part of the article/review.
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GrilledEelHamatsu



Joined: 02 Sep 2009
Posts: 701

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:28 pm Reply with quote
TC-man wrote:


The Gunslinger Girl OVA is not repulsive or offensive at all; the beach scene Erin is talking about is about 1 to 2 minutes before the final OVA episode ends; the bikinis the girls are wearing are fairly normal, there's no fanservice and no specific (zoom) shots to body parts every lolicon wants to see. For me the socalled "date" between the cyborg handler and the girl feels more like going out and relaxing somewhere after hard work (like big brother & little sister or even father & daughter). Nothing sexuals happens, if I remember it correctly they never hug or kiss each other; the guy merely pat the girl on her shoulder; I think the old clothes of the deceased sister is too emphasized on the word "old"; spoiler[I think Jose is seeing Henriette more than a tool for assassination, he sees her as a human-being, as his sister, that's why he gives his sister's dress to Henriette].

I admit Gunslinger Girl OVA is not as good as the first series, it is just above average, but there's some interesting character development in the first OVA episode. I find the term "dicey wank material" to describe the second (final) episode of the OVA to be quite misleading, especially for someone who has read the manga and watched the TV series. I also see a little bit sarcasm in that part of the article/review.


Exactly.

The problem seems to be that Erin is way too conservitive when it comes to children being depicted in anime. In no way was Gunslinger Girl created for the exploitation of lolicon. The characters are ruthless assassins who's job is to kill.

I don't see how one beach scene is inappropiate. This black and white buruacracy opinion only serves to turn off fans of the series and offend them. Haven't you ever seen "Azumanga Daioh" Erin? There's at least 3 swimsuit episodes where Chiyo is wearing a bathing suit much like you see in the final episode of the GSG OVA. Did you find that wank material?

All we are trying to say is that you can't simply reduce every single depiction of a little girl in anime as loli-porn. It shouldn't be a liablity in your opinion.


Last edited by GrilledEelHamatsu on Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Case



Joined: 09 Apr 2002
Posts: 1016

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:38 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
I really do not at all understand why you continue to wander into our review threads and try to tell the writer what they should or should not be doing, or start, as Erin said, yet more meta-discussions about "But guys what is a review supposed to be really??", as if it's going to have any impact at all? As if that's a good use of anyone's time?


I do get the impression frequently that the only person you hear when they speak is yourself. I guess the logical regression from there would be not understanding why other people do.

Zac wrote:
Have you not figured it out yet that I don't care what your personal take on what a review "should be" is? I don't see how that's possible, given that I've never taken any of your advice and the only consequence for that has been more complaining and condescension from you, rather than any sort of drop in readership. Our readership has only grown over the years, in fact.


Idem?

Zac wrote:
"This review is flawed because I did not write it."


That strawman's seen better days man, isn't it about time you got a new one?

Zac wrote:
That's what most of it boils down to. Erin has a particular style, and there are a lot more people who like and appreciate it than not. She hasn't lost any of Shelf Life's regular readership; the column is as popular and well-read as it was when Bamboo wrote it. What does that tell me? That she's doing a good job, and her take on the column is working out just fine.


I like Erin's style, actually. She gives a lot of stuff a fair shake that you would just laugh at and throw off a building. (Lulz! Edgy review idea you haven't tried yet. Take it, it's all yours free and clear.) While I'm certainly not holding my breath over it, I can't help nursing the faint hope that she might not be corrupted by the dark side. *hiss* *gasp*

Zac wrote:
And yet here you are, continuing to lecture her about how to do her job. In spite of the fact that you know her editor - the person responsible for any editorial changes or shifts in the column's content - is reading the forum response and very specifically does not listen to any of your advice or personal philosophies, Case. You have nothing to offer me and I have no interest in taking advice from you.

There are plenty of wonderful friends and colleagues and forum users I do listen to out there, and I cherish the feedback they give me. You are not one of them.

Capice?


Sì Don Ironia! Right away Don Ironia!

Gotta hand it to you, that's the most creative LALALAIMNOTLISTENINGLALALA I've gotten out of you yet. You might still get that writing job one day. Props. Seriously.

Let's see... Lecturing Erin. Lecturing? Hmmm... Kinda like someone's boss inserting themselves into a conversation just so just so they can go "look, look, I'm covering her ears"? Uh, yeah, lecturing, obviously we're all on the same page on this one.

You're a masterpiece bro. I don't know what type of masterpiece you are, but whatever it is, you're an award winner. Way to lead the community by example yet again. Laughing
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 6979
Location: Snake Mountain Cocktail Lounge

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:56 pm Reply with quote
Case wrote:
neverending douchebaggery


Banned. Back on topic.
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Fabe



Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 162

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:09 pm Reply with quote
On the subject of the GSG beach h scene here's some I don't think has been brought up yet, The suits the Girls where wearing are perfectly representative of the bathing suits currently available,a search of the sears web site will prove that.

So the question is was Erin maybe over reacting that they where wearing perfectly "normal" girls swimwear or is that a example of how young children are being sexualized in society.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3337
Location: Back stateside

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:09 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Case wrote:
neverending douchebaggery


Banned. Back on topic.


*huggles* I like you!

Erin: great to hear that you're liking Michiko & Hatchin so far. I'm really hoping that one gets licensed. Very Happy

Oh, and reviewers have every right in the world to talk about the moral content of a movie. You can talk about how Birth of a Nation invented the close-up and revolutionized directing - but you'd be missing a big part of it if you didn't mention how appallingly racist it is. Erin has every right to say that she felt an episode in an otherwise un-wanky series veered to close to wank-zone for her comfort. She's giving fair warning to anyone else who feels that way.
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Prede



Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 378

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:11 pm Reply with quote
...well back on topic...spoiler[ I saw Zac banning him from a mile away with the kind of post he just put out there...]

I am kind of disapointed with the production values in the new Gunslinger Girl series. One thing I really liked about the original series was the amazing artwork. Really everything from the perfect character desings, amazing detail in everything, wonderful backgrounds, great contrast between black and white (chiaroscuro!! Thanks FUNI commentary!), and even the illusion of a 3d world for the characters to move around in was perfect (something only Madhouse and Manglobe seems to get perfect IMO). And everytime a peice of artwork was recreated in the background, I was really impressed. The great, fluid animation was another winning part of this series. And the music was really amazing, you can tell a lot of emotion went into the soundtrack...

Sadly the second series seems to have not only taken a huge step backwards in artwork and animation, but also in the music department as well. While all of it is quite good (when taken on it's own), it's pales in comparison to the original series. I'm still kinda sad Madhouse didn't get the sequel.

Anyway I look forward to finishing up the second series, and then getting to the OVAs. Despite the drop in production values, the characters and story is still really good, and that's most important. Not as good as the original sadly, but it's still very good. And my opinion may change the more I see of it.

vashfanatic: Michiko to Hatchin needs to be licensed...yestorday! I gata see this!
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Otaking09



Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 614

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:49 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Zac wrote:
Case wrote:
neverending douchebaggery



Banned. Back on topic.



*huggles* I like you!



What a time to see how things are going, eh?

heh... well, at least we know what NOT to discuss on these here forums.......
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 6979
Location: Snake Mountain Cocktail Lounge

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:59 pm Reply with quote
Otaking09 wrote:

heh... well, at least we know what NOT to discuss on these here forums.......


It's not about discussion, it's about not constantly trolling and attacking the staff.
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The Black Stones



Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:04 pm Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:

The last episode was really not typical of the rest of the series. I tried to say that in the column a couple of times. The last episode was really bad. Even the second-to-last episode wasn't that bad.

.


I thought you only ever saw the first couple of episodes of GSG? How can you say that episode was nothing like the rest of the series you admittedly haven't seen the rest? (Sorry, on re-reading I sound like an ass trying to call you out on this. I'm really just curious if you have seen the full series or not, because my response here kind of goes off of that. )

I really just think because of your lack of watching the series in full and coming into it in the OVA's, you interpreted things wrong and came out with the wrong ideas behind it. The whole episode was basically about how Jean disagrees with Jose's methods about how he's treating Henrietta more like a family member rather than a weapon. The whole point of her trying on those clothes was basically used as the tipping point for Jean and how he disagrees with Jose's methods.

As far as the whole beach thing. I never even once thought that they were sexualizing the girls, and the scene was more used to try and humanize the girls more by trying to show us they enjoy the beach and trying to get the attentions of their loved ones like any kid would.

Your certainly entitled to your opinion and if that's what you truly think of it, so be it. It's a show and no reason to go and rage about. But I also at the same time think that's it not necessarily a problem with the show that that's what you got out of it.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 12767
Location: NZL

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:44 pm Reply with quote
So sad. Zac set Case up with his "Capice?" post and Case took the bait. You'd have thought that Case would have known better, but . . . maybe he wanted to get banned? Nah, couldn't be . . .
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kkayala



Joined: 25 Sep 2009
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:02 pm Reply with quote
i would just like to put my 2 cents in...
i think erin is doing a great job with this column. yes her way of reviewing things is different from bamboo's, but how is that possibly a bad thing? she explains why she rates things the way she does, and it's an opinion folks! take it or leave it.
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Bored_Ming



Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 239
Location: The Edge of ......

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:12 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
I don't know why Bored_Ming's post got deleted, but I'll reply to it nonetheless.


I deleted my own post. After writing and posting I realized that most of my points were already mentioned by other posters. So, I decided to delete it due to is redundancy.
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Kougeru



Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 2166

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:31 pm Reply with quote
I think the reviewer took the GSG beach "episode" waaay too ..pervertly..they're only on the beach for like 2 minutes or so and are barely focused on the girls. The episode itself is about the dead girl and is far from a glorified "beach episode". Was a pretty pointless OVA though. Also they're MIDDLE SCHOOL aged..they're like 12+ ..at least those two are...and it's very common..at least in america for middle school girls to wear bikinis instead of 1 pieces. Sorry if (which im guessing it was) this was already posted
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