×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
NEWS: Handley's Sentencing for 'Obscene' Manga Delayed


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:09 pm Reply with quote
I can just picture the Handley haters hypocritically ready to make posts praising "Hit-Girl" in Kick-Ass in a few months from now. Rolling Eyes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Richard J.



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 3367
Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:09 pm Reply with quote
OxnardMontolvo2 wrote:
I don't understand what is considered obscene.. aren't there TONS of anime/manga/drawings in the US that have teens (under 18) involved in sexual acts.. are those considered illegal or what?
There's no clear answer. The legal definition of what is or isn't "obscene" is pretty vague. (All the better prosecute you with my dear.) In the past, the Miller Test was used but I'm not sure if it's still being used or not.

Plus most people only seem to freak out when the characters depicted drop below puberty or just look too young. Then suddenly drawings get ascribed human rights and importance and people start calling you names.

Draw all the wanton murder you want but heaven help you if there's a naked 10-year-old anywhere on that paper. Rolling Eyes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Vinnems



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 32
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:26 pm Reply with quote
[quote="VORTIA"]
OxnardMontolvo2 wrote:


What a wonderful justice system we have.


Legal system. Justice is an occasional byproduct.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dark Elf Warrior



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 228
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:29 pm Reply with quote
I really don't see this as a big deal. And I don't think some of you really understand what's going on. But who cares? I'm just glad I'm not Handley. Just because Handley got arrested for possessing obscene manga, doesn't mean all anime fans are going to be condemned. Then again, that's easy for me to say, because I possess no manga that has children being raped. I have nothing to worry about, and I don't think you do too. Just don't import manga porn from Japan, that's what started this mess. The postal service looks at everything that comes from outside the U.S. That's how he got busted.

I say the rest of you chill out and don't worry about this. Enjoy anime while you can. Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:34 pm Reply with quote
Dark Elf: The point is where does it end? For example, they used to arrest and fine people in Texas for selling and owning sex toys.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
machetecat



Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 396
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:35 pm Reply with quote
egoist wrote:

This is what a real criminal is, and this is what real damage to kids is.
....I have a sudden urge to destroy...

Honestly, I'm bored with this case; it all got kinda stupid in the end. I wished they'd just do the sentencing already.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
KanjiiZ



Joined: 28 Jun 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Central Coast
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:52 pm Reply with quote
R315r4z0r wrote:
The way I see it:

-If there is no victim, there is no crime.
-If there IS a victim, but the suspect is not connected to them via illegal or maniacal behavior, they should not be charged with any crime.


Seriously? "You're going to jail because I don't like your comic book?" What the hell is that about?!


1) Failed logic.

2) It's because I don't like your comic book with kiddie porn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Onizuka666



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 266
Location: U.K
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:08 pm Reply with quote
Those gears of law still turning slow. Guess it was delayed because in an ironic way, they probably have REAL cases to deal with.

I too think that if the court had any sense, they'd just reasonably fine Handley for the shipping etc ($250,000 is a ridiculous amount, but may cover court costs) and release him for some community service. The guy is no danger to the public, and despite his taste in books, is unlikely to do the thought crimes they think he will.

There are REAL rapists, paedos and murderers out there, ACTUAL HURTING PEOPLE, to chase and catch. Stop wasting time and the people's money on this dude.

Frankly, I think the justice system and the courts should be ashamed of themselves, as this whole thing has been blown widely out of proportion,laced in the fear of peado predators that grips western society. Some perspective is badly needed and laws adjusted.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:26 pm Reply with quote
Kanjiiz: Again, if they go after that type of hentai, what will they target next? "Go Ask Alice"?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
sunflowerseed



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 106
Location: South Texas
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:30 pm Reply with quote
Normal adult citizens in the USA who are aware of normal anime and normal manga which can be sold and watched here on public tv channels do pretty much know better than to buy or import any manga from a Japanese comic book show as it is always depicting beyond the word 'lewd' acts with minors. In fact, they all look the same with a different name every year.

Grooming minors, male or female, is done by constantly presenting behavior they should not do and should not know about till they are maybe 25 years old using these methods. Making fiction fact. Grooming minors is 3x worse than delinquency to minors because it usually involves sex at a very young age - under 14.

So, the basic reasons for the anti obscene laws is right there. To stop conditioning and what the person who has the items is going to use them for on another person IE: child.

By saying may the sentencing be proper, that means Chris isn't a serial murder or a terrorist who blew up a plane with 500 people on it. Nor is he a guy who had a crack lab in his basement who sold 500 lbs of it to the local elementary school kids. From what I have read in all these articles about him, as well, he didn't run a website selling or showing child porn or adult porn. So, let it be reasonable.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kougeru



Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 5521
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:31 pm Reply with quote
KanjiiZ wrote:
R315r4z0r wrote:
The way I see it:

-If there is no victim, there is no crime.
-If there IS a victim, but the suspect is not connected to them via illegal or maniacal behavior, they should not be charged with any crime.


Seriously? "You're going to jail because I don't like your comic book?" What the hell is that about?!


1) Failed logic.

2) It's because I don't like your comic book with kiddie porn.
No failed logic there, except for what you said. I don't like Call of Duty but that doesn't mean it should be banned just because me and everyone else on the jury call it obscene.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address My Anime My Manga
nottimkai



Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 77
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:40 pm Reply with quote
This case is intensely frustrating and honestly a little baffling.

Handley is busted not on child porn laws, but on interstate obscenity because they can't get him on a child porn wrap. Then he pleads guilty under a child porn statute because the prosecutors were making it so detrimental for Handley if he lost an actual juried trial that he couldn't even think of going to the stand. Like, 25 to life detrimental, instead of just 15 years.

From what I understand, the manga that was being shipped was some sort of Yaoi, and not necessarily shotacon. The characters depicted didn't have any pubic hair and were youngish looking, not uncommon in all manga. And of thousands of individual manga volumes, 7 volumes were confiscated, and of those seven volumes, there were 'more than 150 but less than 300' examples that were considered. Not volumes. Not necessarily even pages. Could be as little as individual panels. 1

One full volume's worth of drawings (maybe, if we're talking pages, instead of individual panels). Out of roughly (assuming an average of 180 pages per volume) 216,000 pages of manga (assuming the 1200 volume collection number that I have seen is accurate).

My manga collection has probably passed Handley's since he was arrested, and in that collection there are probably an equal number of panels of Miller Test actionable material. You know, like Ranma 1/2. Or an untranslated copy of the first volume of Tenshi ni Narumon. Or my copies of Sundome, which is basically a high school softcore with a urine fetish attached. Heaven help me, I own copies of the animes Kamichu and My Neighbor Totoro! UNDERAGE GIRLS BATHING!!

(I won't even mention that I own a copy of Alan Moore's "Lost Girls" which features explicit underage sex in the context of the girls who were the bases for "Alice in Wonderland", "Peter Pan" and "the Wizard of Oz".)

I mention the miller test because that is what you have to deal with when you are under an 'obscenity' wrap. And the miller test is subjective to the point of insanity. It uses community standards, which vary by however many communities exist. In other words, the jury of your peers gets to say whether or not the underage nude hijinks that ensue in something like ranma 1/2 or My neighbor Totoro (or Lost Girls koff koff) is obscene.

I'm going to quote Neil Gaiman, because this damn blog post of his is still pertinent.

If you accept -- and I do -- that freedom of speech is important, then you are going to have to defend the indefensible. That means you are going to be defending the right of people to read, or to write, or to say, what you don't say or like or want said.

The Law is a huge blunt weapon that does not and will not make distinctions between what you find acceptable and what you don't. This is how the Law is made. ... The Law is a blunt instrument. It's not a scalpel. It's a club. If there is something you consider indefensible, and there is something you consider defensible, and the same laws can take them both out, you are going to find yourself defending the indefensible.
2

Since Handley did not actually go to trial, no precedent was set by his guilty plea, helpful or detrimental. But seriously people - you start taking down non offending private citizens for possessing art in their home, and it stands - they WILL eventually come for you.

This whole case is just darkness. There is no light coming from it. And we should all be ashamed of ourselves for allowing them to take away our speech.

1: Down the Slippery Slope - the Crime of Viewing Manga
http://comipress.com/special/miscellaneous/down-the-slippery-slope-the-crime-of-viewing-manga
2: Neil Gaiman - Why defend freedom of Icky Speech
http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-icky-speech.html


Last edited by nottimkai on Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:55 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
KanjiiZ



Joined: 28 Jun 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Central Coast
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:40 pm Reply with quote
That's a really bad example. There's a more passable difference between the airport scene in Call of Duty and something like child porn.

I really think the guy should get five years and then some probation and restriction from the internet. We all have our strange fetishes, but I think kids is just one of the few that we shouldn't look over.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lemoncookies23



Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 355
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:19 pm Reply with quote
KanjiiZ wrote:
That's a really bad example. There's a more passable difference between the airport scene in Call of Duty and something like child porn.

I really think the guy should get five years and then some probation and restriction from the internet. We all have our strange fetishes, but I think kids is just one of the few that we shouldn't look over.


Except that he didn't do anything to any kids.... What are you not getting here?!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bored-otaku



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 112
Location: Odessa,Texas
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:56 pm Reply with quote
I've been trying to keep up with this case for a while now. I must say I'm really disappointed in that guy. If he wanted to, he could've probably torn the prosecution to shreds. How sad. I also find it sad how people associate his tastes to actual child pornography, what a joke! By the same principle, I should be arrested for capital murder since I play Grand Theft Auto all the time. Jeez people use you your heads! You cannot associate fantasy with real life.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 3 of 10

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group