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Tempest
ANN Publisher & CEO


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 8571
Location: Do not message me for support.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:16 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Guess what, I can find illegal Anime content on YouTube too. Lots of it. Should ANN not include YouTube because of this? YouTube takes


As I've posted above, my reasons for leaving AS off the survey are simply because they didn't fit into the categories I was asking about. TBH, it never even occurred to me to ask about fansub sites.

Still, I'm going to be stupid and argue semantics with you.

Comparing YT to AS is, imho, completely pointless. YT makes a reasonable effort to remove infringing material from their site (some would even say they go to far since they often remove material that would be considered fair use). Every torrent on AS is infringement. So, no, I don't think there's any reason to treat YT the same way we treat sites that focus on infringing material.


Quote:
Finally, ANN uses fansubs for their seasonal preview guides wherever legal subs are unavailable. So they're willing to actually use fansubs but not to even allow the mention of a site which merely links to torrents of them? I am confused here. If ANN's sponsors/advertisers are okay with ANN's use of fansubs (and they must be, otherwise ANN wouldn't do it) then why would they be unhappy with AS being listed as an option in the survey? Can you not see how odd that is?


We made a policy a long time ago to not allow users to post links to copyright infringing material, provided such material isn't fair use. That's all. That's the totality of the rule. It does not imply that we hate fansubs; it has nothing to do with our sponsors / business relationship (the rule was formulated when this was a fan-site); and it doesn't apply to our editorial rules (we've mentioned AS in the news on more than one occasion).

As for the season preview guide, people love bringing it up as some sort of implicit approval of fansubs. IMHO, that's a bit of a stretch, but it's not a completely insane opinion. The only thing I'd like to point out, again, is that ANN has no policy or official opinion on fansubs. Some of our writers have expressed opinions (differing opinions if you care to pay attention), but "the opinions expressed in this article do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Anime News Network, its employees or business partners."

One last little fansub semantic; by downloading, watching and reviewing fansubs, our writers are not breaking any US laws. If you don't understand this, wait for the articles about it, which start in January.

Speaking of sponsors and business partners. We've been asked to remove content from the forum (people discussing fansubs) and we've refused. We've also refused to remove editorial content that featured interior art (which we felt was fair use) or covered subjects that were embarrassing to our partners. In some cases we've been warned that there would be "consequences" if we refused... we still refused. Outside of the Spotlight, our sponsors and business partners have no control over the content of this site (even in Spotlight, the don't get what they want if we don't feel it suits Spotlight).

Woo, I feel like I just came in... somewhere in the special olympics. I feel proud.

-t
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Tempest
ANN Publisher & CEO


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 8571
Location: Do not message me for support.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:18 pm Reply with quote
zensunni wrote:
The survey is closed already? That seems a bit fast...

Nephtis wrote:

Yeah is this intended? If so oh well, but I come here pretty often and found it closed already despite being advertised on the front page...seems odd.


Yup. 36 hours is more than long enough to get statistically relevant data. (A few thousand answers).

In fact, 90% of the answers are received within the first 12 hours.

For a simple ye/no, it becomes statistically relevant at about 50 answers...

-t
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Tempest
ANN Publisher & CEO


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 8571
Location: Do not message me for support.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:33 pm Reply with quote
yuna49 wrote:

What about the privacy issue? Do you anonymize the responses?


We do not.The survey engine was designed to allow you to go back and make changes after the fact (if you made a mistake, want to add info, or whatever). We wouldn't be able to do that if the

That said, we never share the raw survey data in any way that can be linked to specific users (we only share the stats, none of the individual answers).

animenewsnetwork.com/privacy-policy

We'll be upgrading the survey engine in 2013 and we'll consider an option to allow individuals to reply anonymously. There'd still be a piece of data that showed you answered the survey, but not which set of answers are yours.

-t
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Maidenoftheredhand



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 1913

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:59 pm Reply with quote
Tempest thank you for sharing your opinions on AS.

I do have one further question about the site. I've noticed people refer it to as the site that cannot be named. Now I understand not discussing the main page and linking where actual torrents are (those that are left) but can we not discuss the forum either on this site?

I wasn't sure if that was some official policy or posters were just doing what they thought.

But I am glad to see AS is not thought of as the bogey man on here because that was certainly my impression in the past.
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potatochobit



Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 1287
Location: TEXAS

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:07 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
by downloading, watching and reviewing fansubs, our writers are not breaking any US laws.

nope, you can totally be sued and are liable.
watching it is one thing, but making a digital copy is totally something else.
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RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 4210
Location: Towson, Maryland

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:19 pm Reply with quote
Tempest wrote:
One last little fansub semantic; by downloading, watching and reviewing fansubs, our writers are not breaking any US laws. If you don't understand this, wait for the articles about it, which start in January.


I've always wondered about the legality of this, and I'm looking forward to the articles. I'd assume anything thats licensed is illegal, since those companies hold the licenses in America... but for shows like JoJo and Little Busters this season, which nobody licensed, I don't see how it can be illegal to watch fansubs of them.
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Saffire



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 870
Location: Iowa, USA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:32 pm Reply with quote
potatochobit wrote:
Quote:
by downloading, watching and reviewing fansubs, our writers are not breaking any US laws.

nope, you can totally be sued and are liable.
watching it is one thing, but making a digital copy is totally something else.
Because obviously you know more about copyright than a practicing lawyer.
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RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
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Location: Towson, Maryland

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:40 pm Reply with quote
Saffire wrote:
potatochobit wrote:
Quote:
by downloading, watching and reviewing fansubs, our writers are not breaking any US laws.

nope, you can totally be sued and are liable.
watching it is one thing, but making a digital copy is totally something else.
Because obviously you know more about copyright than a practicing lawyer.


It makes me wonder if fansubs technically fall under the "Parody" or "AMV" kinda clause. Where you are making your own take on something else, so its legal for people to download and watch it.
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Saffire



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:11 pm Reply with quote
I don' t think AMVs are really protected either, but I could be wrong on that. Seems more like no one goes after them because the backlash would be instant death.

But fansubs are definitely illegal. It's not a new work, it's a derivative of an existing one. It would be a very different market if they were legal. My suspicion is that the "reviewing" part is what protects them; he was pretty specific about saying "our writers" and not "anime fans". That's just a guess though, I know no more about this than anyone else. It'll be an interesting set of articles for sure.
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Mesonoxian Eve



Joined: 10 Jan 2012
Posts: 1858

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:11 pm Reply with quote
RyanSaotome wrote:
I've always wondered about the legality of this, and I'm looking forward to the articles.

I can already tell you this will be wrapped under the Fair Use clause, which is assumed to give an instant waiver because of the articles associated with it.

It's inaccurate. Fair Use is a guideline to be used by the civil court system, not people, which is why it's misleading. Every case that's filed must be decided on by a court of law, and if the judge deems a Fair Use exception is valid, the case is tossed.

This does not exempt infringement from the law itself even if the guidelines are met.

I've seen cases where 4 lines of a book were found guilty of infringement while whole movies shown given a pass and all because the assumption Fair Use was automatically given. It is never automatically given. Ever. EVER. Let this sink in if nothing else is learned today.

It doesn't help, either, when different court circuits in the US use different rulers. Right now, many lawsuits are being filed in those circuits favorable to rights holders (both creators and distributors).

Quote:
I'd assume anything thats licensed is illegal, since those companies hold the licenses in America... but for shows like JoJo and Little Busters this season, which nobody licensed, I don't see how it can be illegal to watch fansubs of them.

This is where things get mixed because the copyright is actually based in Japan, and until it's licensed, there's a misconception US copyright law doesn't apply.

Except, it does by proxy, thanks to the Berne (not Berner, people) Convention. The US is a participant, which is basically the same thing as saying US law applies by proxy.

Where things get tricky: even though the law is applied to protect the copyright of the creator, there can be no filing of infringement in US court unless the copyright was filed (applies to all US copyright cases).

In addition, copyright ownership can get convoluted because of what's covered, and this is why tempest's notion is inaccurate.

Why? The fansub text used in fansubs is, ironically, protected by copyright. While it's extremely unlikely a fansub site would ever sue for this, they are, legally, covered by copyright law.

How's that for an FYI. Sucks, right? Well, now you have just a little more understanding why this is a very hot topic right now.

The worst part in all this is copyright itself is a basterdization which literally conflicts against its own sections. This is because Disney, the MPAA, and RIAA, just to name a few, decided it was okay to add distribution to copyright, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the rights of artists, the biggest misconception of copyright most people carry.

Here's another misconception: The US Constitution's Article 1, Section 8 does not guarantee people that limited right to their work(s). If people actually read it as it is worded, it gives Congress the power to grant that right, which they do via copyright law.

As much as I understand some of these issues, I can promise you one thing: there's no such thing as an expert in copyright because it's impossible.

How? Answer this question: if you took a picture of a work under copyright, who owns the copyright?

The law can not answer the question, but a court can.

I've been saying this for years, but it's nice to see some sites like TechDirt are finally addressing these nuances. Sadly, it takes the likes of SOPA to get anyone interested in these issues, and the worst part about SOPA was it was used to mislead people to get phone calls and letters made.

I hated SOPA, but I hated this abuse worse. To me, the sites that mislead people are no better than those who drafted the law to mislead Congress.

Both sides are wrong for the right reasons, but two wrongs still don't make a right.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7047
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:29 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, let's not start pre-arguing against articles that haven't been published yet, folks.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 13018
Location: NZL

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:56 pm Reply with quote
Tempest wrote:
Still, I'm going to be stupid and argue semantics with you.


And the rest of your post is actually destroying GokuMew2's argument that ANN is beholden to its "sponsors". So thank you.
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potatochobit



Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 1287
Location: TEXAS

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:11 pm Reply with quote
this post has been edited:

Saffire wrote:
Because obviously you know more about copyright than a practicing lawyer.


I ... personal history deleted.... see post below
angry comment archived: probably longer than you have been diaper trained and I ... personal info deleted.... I have nothing else to say about that.

btw, who the hell are you? are you a lawyer? you realize most lawyers will tell you anything you want to hear - after you pay them.

I'm just kidding man, but it is far more complicated than someone posting on an anime forum, "Fansubs are legal! and I can prove it!"

well, if fansubs are legal then everyone in china downloading microsoft windows for free must be legal to you, as well.

btw, most anime does NOT air over the airwaves, you must pay for cable service. you are going to have a hard time in america arguing the legality of recording and distributing content like 'HBO' over the internet.


Last edited by potatochobit on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:13 pm; edited 2 times in total
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potatochobit



Joined: 26 Aug 2009
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Location: TEXAS

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:14 pm Reply with quote
Saffire wrote:

But fansubs are definitely illegal. It's not a new work, it's a derivative of an existing one. It would be a very different market if they were legal.


what are you the neighborhood seesaw?
first you complain now you are expressing your opinion?
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Saffire



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 870
Location: Iowa, USA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:16 pm Reply with quote
potatochobit wrote:
I worked for a law enforcement agency for many years specifically in the forgery area. I know alot about the difference between civil and criminal laws. I also studied international law in college with the hopes of opening my own anime import store. I know alot about the legality of 'gray' market goods and how arbitration is handled bewteen laws differing bewtween two countries. Intellectual property rights has always been an interest of mine, after all, I have been watching fansubs for 20years which is probably longer than you have been diaper trained and I know alot about the fansub community though I have nothing else to say about that.

btw, who the hell are you? are you a lawyer? you realize most lawyers will tell you anything you want to hear - after you pay them.

I'm just kidding man, but it is far more complicated than someone posting on an anime forum, "Fansubs are legal! and I can prove it!"
Thanks for the mass of presumptions - they tell me up front that you've already decided what I think, so you're not worth engaging on the subject.
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