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GokuMew2



Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 1599
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:56 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
I get where you're coming from but it's not like it's even remotely difficult to find pirated anime. Anyone can google anime torrent or anime fansub and immediately find multiple places to get them. By the time someone realizes bittorent/fansubs are a thing, they're 90% of the way to finding them if they so desire. So yeah, I don't really see a big difference between including piracy as an option and mentioning a specific torrent site.

Yes, but ANN is a legitimate website and I think it wants to stay that way, so it is not going to start pointing people in the direction of where they can find illegal content. If people want to go and find out where they can download anime illegally then they can do it themselves.

I mentioned it before and I'll mention it again that ANN has sponsors, many of them licensing companies. ANN and these sponsors recognize that anime is downloaded illegally but that does not mean the sponsors are OK with illegal downloads, or that they would be OK with ANN pointing people in the direction of where they can download illegal content that could directly compete with paid content/products they provide.

The sponsors wouldn't want ANN to directly name sites that include illegal downloads is one thing, but ANN's morals are in line with their sponsors' wants as well.

As for that site being more forum than torrent site, as long as it includes torrents, I don't think it will be included as a choice on the survey. But it's not like you can't enter it in the Other field anyway so like you said, this isn't be a big deal.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 12704
Location: NZL

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:39 am Reply with quote
Guess what, I can find illegal Anime content on YouTube too. Lots of it. Should ANN not include YouTube because of this? YouTube takes

As I've said before, AS does not include licensed content. They even have a permanent advertisement/link for Crunchyroll on most of their bittorrent pages, which I'm guessing is there for free. Seriously, who cares if they offer torrents for unlicensed Anime; while illegal it doesn't hurt anyone. Nobody is losing revenue. And as soon as a show is licensed then bam, that series is gone and unavailable.

ANN wouldn't be pointing users to AS just by naming them in a list. It's not like the name is a link. It's not like each site listed has a small blurb such as "AS - bittorrent site with large forum". Simply mentioning the site name with no explanation about what the site does is not pointing users to the site, especially in a survey. When you're checking boxes in the survey you're not going to go "hmm, AS, the name sounds interesting. I wonder what that site does. I'm going to stop this survey half-way through and go have a gander". That just ain't gonna realistically happen.

Finally, ANN uses fansubs for their seasonal preview guides wherever legal subs are unavailable. So they're willing to actually use fansubs but not to even allow the mention of a site which merely links to torrents of them? I am confused here. If ANN's sponsors/advertisers are okay with ANN's use of fansubs (and they must be, otherwise ANN wouldn't do it) then why would they be unhappy with AS being listed as an option in the survey? Can you not see how odd that is?
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 6926
Location: Snake Mountain Cocktail Lounge

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:11 am Reply with quote
This seems like mountain into molehill stuff, guys. You use it, you enjoy their community. If we didn't know that beforehand, we know it now, so mission accomplished.

GokuMew2 wrote:
But it's not like you can't enter it in the Other field anyway so like you said, this isn't be a big deal.


Also, this, for crap's sake. Write it in if it isn't there. You're complaining mostly that it wasn't a checkbox preloaded for you and you had to type it in to let us know that's a site you use? C'mon, people.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 12704
Location: NZL

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:37 am Reply with quote
I've already said I don't use AS and I haven't for years. (Last time I was active was back in 2009 when Endless Eight was the talk of the web.) I've also previously acknowledged that people could manually enter AS. I was merely responding to GokuMew2's views on AS.
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Nephtis
SubscriberSubscriber


Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 138
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:36 am Reply with quote
zensunni wrote:
The survey is closed already? That seems a bit fast...


Yeah is this intended? If so oh well, but I come here pretty often and found it closed already despite being advertised on the front page...seems odd.
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GokuMew2



Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 1599
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:39 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Guess what, I can find illegal Anime content on YouTube too. Lots of it. Should ANN not include YouTube because of this? YouTube takes

But the point of YouTube is not to distribute illegal content. Obviously many people use it for that purpose but YouTube was not created for the distribution of illegal content. AS' purpose, while it may have changed over the years, is to distribute illegal content via BT.

Btw, if you Google "[this is a bittorrent site]," the description is, "Fan-subtitled episode downloads through BitTorrent. Includes forum." Notice how the forum is secondary and the primary purpose is "episode downloads through BitTorrent," so I think they still consider themselves first and foremost a torrent site.

EDIT: Ha! I just realized that typing in the site's name gets it censored. Why should/would they include on the survey as a choice the name of a site that they censor on the forum?

Quote:
As I've said before, AS does not include licensed content. They even have a permanent advertisement/link for Crunchyroll on most of their bittorrent pages, which I'm guessing is there for free. Seriously, who cares if they offer torrents for unlicensed Anime; while illegal it doesn't hurt anyone. Nobody is losing revenue. And as soon as a show is licensed then bam, that series is gone and unavailable.

An affiliate program is different than the company directly buying ad space. AS went to CR; CR didn't go to AS. Most, if not all, the advertising you see on ANN is because the company went to ANN and bought that ad space. (I'm not counting any in-text ads because I'm using Ad-block and never see them, but I assume ANN removes any ads that include links to illegal content or are invasive.)

"Nobody is losing revenue"? That's a rather naive statement. Do you really think there are no people who don't buy a series that's been licensed because they've already seen it for free? That's losing revenue right there. So AS removes a series after it's been licensed... What difference does it make? The damage has already been done.

Quote:
ANN wouldn't be pointing users to AS just by naming them in a list. It's not like the name is a link. It's not like each site listed has a small blurb such as "AS - bittorrent site with large forum". Simply mentioning the site name with no explanation about what the site does is not pointing users to the site, especially in a survey. When you're checking boxes in the survey you're not going to go "hmm, AS, the name sounds interesting. I wonder what that site does. I'm going to stop this survey half-way through and go have a gander". That just ain't gonna realistically happen.

Perhaps, but the bottom line is that ANN decided not to include them in the list. That is their choice, regardless of the reason behind it, so what's the point of going back and forth with this? They are not prohibiting people from selecting AS because people can include it in the Other field. It is not hindering them from collecting data. If for some reason AS could not be entered in the field, only then do I think you might have cause for argument because not being able to enter a certain choice would affect the survey results.

AS is not a legitimate source for anime. That's the difference here. YouTube, while it may include user-submitted illegal content, also has official content uploaded by licensing companies, including full episodes.

Quote:
Finally, ANN uses fansubs for their seasonal preview guides wherever legal subs are unavailable. So they're willing to actually use fansubs but not to even allow the mention of a site which merely links to torrents of them? I am confused here. If ANN's sponsors/advertisers are okay with ANN's use of fansubs (and they must be, otherwise ANN wouldn't do it) then why would they be unhappy with AS being listed as an option in the survey? Can you not see how odd that is?

Their use of fansubs is to provide reviews of series that may not be available. They do not include in the review, "Oh by the way, we watched this by downloading it illegally from _______." They are just using a source to provide a service (reviews), without naming that source unless it is legal.

Now, let's think the opposite and forget things like legitimacy, sponsors, etc. Suppose AS were listed as a choice. Does it make a difference? No, because people who wanted to select it could enter it in the Other field if it were not listed.


In the end nothing I or anyone says will change your mind. If you feel AS should be on the list, fine, but you're not the one making the decision-- ANN is and they decided against putting it on the list. Boo hoo. WHO CARES. Does this even matter? Is somehow including that choice on the survey going to drastically change the results? Of course not, so just DROP IT. I know I will.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 12704
Location: NZL

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:51 am Reply with quote
GokuMew2 wrote:
Boo hoo. WHO CARES.


Evidently you do, if the length of your post is any indication.

I never set out to defend AS, just to point out the errors in your reasoning. You seem to think fansubs are the devil; good for you. But I'm not going to touch that topic with a ten-foot pole.
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jymmy



Joined: 11 Nov 2011
Posts: 794

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:04 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
GokuMew2 wrote:
Boo hoo. WHO CARES.

Evidently you do, if the length of your post is any indication.

I dunno, you'd be surprised at the length of spiels you can throw out on apparently meaningless subjects if you enjoy debating or even just writing.
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Mesonoxian Eve



Joined: 10 Jan 2012
Posts: 1858

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:10 am Reply with quote
octopodpie wrote:
Oh, awesome! I haven't seen the beta myself so this may be entirely redundant or outdated, but I'd love to see the site adopt a tabloid-style front page where (bear with me) the article feed isn't listed chronologically, but instead follows a "trending" format.

Your post is not outdated or redundant, as the beta is still in progress, but I don't know if Dan will read this topic to see this post. If you'd like, I can post it in the Community forum on your behalf.

Currently as designed, the goal of the beta is no different than what it is now, format wise. The direction is to make as much content available to all users (new and old) as possible, and the initial design has been deemed unfavorable for the few users now providing feedback. Dan is currently looking into another way to serve the direction.

At the risk of stepping over the line here, I would recommend those who'd like to invest in the future of ANN's design throw out $3 for a month's access to the Subscriber forum and provide their feedback.

In addition to the site change, the "My Anime" section is also getting a major overhaul. The initial design is very nice, and we're now providing feedback on it as well.

A bit of caution: this is a beta, which means it's not finalized. Some options are clunky and some layout issues are present, and they've been mentioned (some addressed), but don't expect a site that's going to be ready by the end of the week. In my opinion, I don't see this being released in 2012, but more at 2013, so feedback at this stage is being accepted.

I think this is a good idea and fits well with the purpose of the design.
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Maidenoftheredhand



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 1818

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:29 am Reply with quote
I also want to point out that there have been talks on AS to get rid of the torrent aspect all together, that is how dead it is how and how irrelevant it is so the site anymore. It was how the site was created but the forum is definitely the main part of the site now.

Again I don't really care that ANN didn't list it in the survey and I understand from a legal stand point why they didn't but to me the site is really just an anime community no different from MAL or ANN. And as someone else pointed out I go right to the forum site never the main page.

It just so happens that it's beginnings were very much tied to fansubs that I think it still gets a bad rap. Though unlike other fansub sites it always stayed in "the gray area" always sticking to unlicensed material.
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GokuMew2



Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 1599
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:39 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
GokuMew2 wrote:
Boo hoo. WHO CARES.


Evidently you do, if the length of your post is any indication.

I never set out to defend AS, just to point out the errors in your reasoning. You seem to think fansubs are the devil; good for you. But I'm not going to touch that topic with a ten-foot pole.

And I am pointing out the errors in yours. Simple as that.

I don't think fansubs are the devil, and don't know how you drew that conclusion. Me saying that they're illegal (ya know, because they are) doesn't mean that I hate them. I download fansubs, watch them, and no, I don't buy everything I watch. I'm like a lot of anime fans in this regard. I don't watch legal streams on Crunchyroll. I download Crunchyroll rips because Crunchyroll is blocked in Japan. I don't have a DVR so 90% of the anime I watch is watched on my PC.

jymmy wrote:
I dunno, you'd be surprised at the length of spiels you can throw out on apparently meaningless subjects if you enjoy debating or even just writing.

Exactly. Hit the nail right on the head. I also know when enough is enough though, and I think we've reached that point in time.

I've gone through each of dtm42's points and refuted them. If you, dtm42, don't buy any of them, then *shrug*. Whatever.
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samuelp



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 1551
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:08 am Reply with quote
Maidenoftheredhand wrote:
I also want to point out that there have been talks on AS to get rid of the torrent aspect all together, that is how dead it is how and how irrelevant it is so the site anymore. It was how the site was created but the forum is definitely the main part of the site now.

Again I don't really care that ANN didn't list it in the survey and I understand from a legal stand point why they didn't but to me the site is really just an anime community no different from MAL or ANN. And as someone else pointed out I go right to the forum site never the main page.

It just so happens that it's beginnings were very much tied to fansubs that I think it still gets a bad rap. Though unlike other fansub sites it always stayed in "the gray area" always sticking to unlicensed material.

I think the reason I was offended is because I associate myself with AS's history... I started on those forums as a fan, then as a fansubber, and I've always had respect for the people who run it. Remember when Mediafactory sent them a letter demanding they no longer list torrents for their shows and they dutifully complied, back in.... 2004? And now, they're the only site I know which makes sure to label every discussion thread with the legal way to view the show (if one exists).
The fact that ANN still blacklists their name makes me feel like since I was a former fansubber and still use their forums like I'm somehow aiding and abetting illegal activity. The argument that ANN as a "legitimate" news site cannot allow its members to even post the name honestly seriously annoys me; as someone in the position to know how much of a strawman that argument is.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 1776

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:15 am Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:

The fact that ANN still blacklists their name makes me feel like since I was a former fansubber and still use their forums like I'm somehow aiding and abetting illegal activity. The argument that ANN as a "legitimate" news site cannot allow its members to even post the name honestly seriously annoys me; as someone in the position to know how much of a strawman that argument is.


I think sometimes people make the mistake of assuming that a policy is put forth or decision made just to attack their position or offend them. You have to also consider the fact that ANN is making a lot of business decisions. It may be that they have sponsors and advertisers who like to support a website that is focused on promoting (as much as possible) legal content and supporting the artists and content creators by linking to paid content. If they are making decisions in order to further that agenda, that is not an assault on you, it is a business decision which probably benefits not only ANN but also visitors to the site. ANN is not going to stop you from doing what you will at other sites, but they are making decisions to make ANN successful at what the site does best.
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Tempest
ANN Publisher & CEO


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 8534
Location: Do not message me for support.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:46 pm Reply with quote
yuna49 wrote:

Perhaps you are dissembling, but if not, it's the one I cannot link to or name here. Its initials are AS.


In retrospect, I am interested in how many people visit AS, but I only listed commercial websites that I consider competitors to ANN in one way or another.

Next time I do this I'll probably ask about the various fan-sites, and piracy and fansub related sites. At the same time, I don't want to give people a list of pirate sites to check out.
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Tempest
ANN Publisher & CEO


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 8534
Location: Do not message me for support.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:53 pm Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:

I think the reason I was offended is because I associate myself with AS's history... I started on those forums as a fan, then as a fansubber, and I've always had respect for the people who run it. Remember when Mediafactory sent them a letter demanding they no longer list torrents for their shows and they dutifully complied, back in.... 2004? And now, they're the only site I know which makes sure to label every discussion thread with the legal way to view the show (if one exists).
The fact that ANN still blacklists their name makes me feel like since I was a former fansubber and still use their forums like I'm somehow aiding and abetting illegal activity. The argument that ANN as a "legitimate" news site cannot allow its members to even post the name honestly seriously annoys me; as someone in the position to know how much of a strawman that argument is.


Your assumption as to why the name is blacklisted is wrong. The blacklist is to stop people from linking to torrents. We have similar blacklists in place for any other site that offers pirated material.

Like you, I have a lot of respect for the people that run AS. I've told them this in person when I've run into them at various conventions (I wonder if they remember). They are the only anime BT site that I respect (they're the only one that sticks to the old ethical rules that no one else respects anymore).

That doesn't change the fact that the site hosts torrents and I don't want people linking to it here.

FWIW, there are sites in the survey that I don't respect. Those same sites can be named here without being censored. Neither the word-censor, nor a position in the survey has anything to do with my respect.

-t


Last edited by Tempest on Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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