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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 7199
Location: England, UK

PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:38 pm Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
This might be of use for you there mate.

Sure, once it's updated to reflect what really happens now, rather than what happened in 2003.
Wink
Things like that have changed very little in Japan as anyone who has worked there will attest to. The point there is commissions come with an agreed flat set budget, and studios like AIC, or any of them must work within that budget. Once AIC finish it and hand it over to say VAP, or Dentsu they're done and out of the picture, so to speak, as they already got theirs in that budget. So it goes, up to the final sales. It's the original executive producers, and/or commitee that get any profit from sales as it is them that hand out the budgets to companies like AIC, etc. The concept of royalities is culturally considered an insult to ask for, so many creators just don't.
Some other suggest references:

Japanamerica

Schoolgirl Milky Crisis


Last edited by Mohawk52 on Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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loka



Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 363
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:28 am Reply with quote
do you people realize that the ANN encyclopedia lists exactly two series this spring season as moe? there are more SPORTS ANIME than moe series. Sure, there has been at least one moeblob show a season for a few years, but you could say the same of mecha. I am not a fan of mecha. it's difficult to find any season where 3 or more 'moe shows' were being boadcast.

jeez, what is with all the boohoohoo moe is overtaking my Witchblade and [other crappy shows featuring girls with over-sized breasts]. They have a rough time coming up with good looking character models for 'mature' women. I, personally, do not find "Balsa the Spear Woman" pleasing to look at.

ps. I can't stand K-ON either.
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mabber36



Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 48
Location: georgia, usa

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:44 am Reply with quote
loka wrote:
do you people realize that the ANN encyclopedia lists exactly two series this spring season as moe? there are more SPORTS ANIME than moe series. Sure, there has been at least one moeblob show a season for a few years, but you could say the same of mecha. I am not a fan of mecha. it's difficult to find any season where 3 or more 'moe shows' were being boadcast.

jeez, what is with all the boohoohoo moe is overtaking my Witchblade and [other crappy shows featuring girls with over-sized breasts]. They have a rough time coming up with good looking character models for 'mature' women. I, personally, do not find "Balsa the Spear Woman" pleasing to look at.

ps. I can't stand K-ON either.


you do realize moe is not a genre, right?
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jsevakis
ANN Director of New Media


Joined: 28 Jul 2003
Posts: 1520
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:10 am Reply with quote
AkiraKaneda wrote:
I'm saying that some folks call Superbook anime. I'm not sure that's correct. It was created by TBN and essentially outsourced to Tatsunoko.


Not quite accurate. The original series アニメ親子劇場 (Anime Oyako Gekijo, roughly Anime Parent-Child Theater) was produced entirely by Tatsunoko, with no Americans on the creative team at all. It was, however, part of a Japanese outreach program by Pat Robertson and CBN, but they acted as a sponsor rather than a creative partner, and arranged to have a show like that made through Yomiuri Advertising. It's quite literally a commercial for Jesus, the way Transformers was a toy commercial. (According to Wikipedia, CBN wasn't originally intending to market it to Americans, but was encouraged by its success in Europe.)

Only difference with what Chi suggested was that maybe this time they'd produce the content with Americans specifically in mind.
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AkiraKaneda



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 53

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:03 am Reply with quote
jsevakis wrote:
AkiraKaneda wrote:
I'm saying that some folks call Superbook anime. I'm not sure that's correct. It was created by TBN and essentially outsourced to Tatsunoko.


Not quite accurate...


Gomen. My statement suggests that TBN did the scripting, etc., which they did not. This does put it into the same category of an Afro Samurai, then, if not even more Japanese in origin. The material that was presented at the panel I attended (which I mentioned above) stated as much that Superbook was intended for American audiences. Perhaps some more research is appropriate on my part!

jsevakis wrote:
Only difference with what Chi suggested was that maybe this time they'd produce the content with Americans specifically in mind.


Right...though I wonder how many people would still consider it anime if the whole aim was to reach Americans with it.
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Pandadice



Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:41 am Reply with quote
loka wrote:
do you people realize that the ANN encyclopedia lists exactly two series this spring season as moe? there are more SPORTS ANIME than moe series. Sure, there has been at least one moeblob show a season for a few years, but you could say the same of mecha. I am not a fan of mecha. it's difficult to find any season where 3 or more 'moe shows' were being boadcast.

jeez, what is with all the boohoohoo moe is overtaking my Witchblade and [other crappy shows featuring girls with over-sized breasts]. They have a rough time coming up with good looking character models for 'mature' women. I, personally, do not find "Balsa the Spear Woman" pleasing to look at.

ps. I can't stand K-ON either.


honestly, it depends on your definition of "moe".

The shows that Zac would consider "moe garbage", are a lot more common than shows I'd consider "moe". I'd consider a show like Sketchbook Fullcolors, or Hanamaru Kindergarten to be moe. But Zac/ANN (for the most part?) would say like, anything with females that could also include fanservice and/or ecchi (seeing as how when "moe" comes up, Zac always goes for the "and there's a shot of her panties", while in the biggest "moe" shows, there are no such shots (Kanon, Clannad, Air)) is moe.

Last Fall season we had Nyan Koi, Seitokai no Ichizon, Sora no Otoshimono, Shin Koihime Musou, Nogizaka 2.. These all are shows that if Zac watched them, his reaction would probably be like "uhgg, moe garbage". And these are the sort of ecchi/fanservice centric shows that, I'll agree, are really hurting the fanbase.

I don't think "crappy shows with girls with over sized breasts" (lol Qwaser) is what they want. You say they're complaining that moe is overtaking their Witchbalde? lol. No, they're complaining moe is overtaking their Neon Genesis :p.

You didn't find Balsa nice to look at? I mean, I wouldn't put her on a "hottest chicks list", but the animation quality and characters designs were just so good in that series, I definitely found her and everyone else in that series nice to look at.

K-ON is a series I'd consider an actual "moe" title. (and note, that the series (well, season 1 at least) featured no to minimal fanservice (there were.. 2 beach eps? but I mean, they weren't your normal fanservice beach eps)). And I enjoy it. What, you don't like K-ON, you don't like Witchblade.. what do you like?
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Metal_Slug



Joined: 20 Nov 2009
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:01 pm Reply with quote
Pandadice wrote:
Metal_Slug wrote:

I also have noticed the trend in Japan where those in the industry hate on American animation and companies like Pixar. I can't remember who was being interviewed, but some big shot in anime got their interview posted on here, and they said something about how Pixar "disturbingly ripped off Laputa" with Up or something like that. Now the translation may have come out stronger than intended, but to me somehow that really struck a nerve. I don't understand why animators in Japan hate Pixar, with all of its amazing success, instead of appreciating it. I do, however, agree that no one should try to copy Pixar, but should try their own method. I just don't get the disrespect. Confused


well i mean like, the dude who made Pixar was heavily influenced by like studio Ghibli stuff.

Western animation takes things from Japanese animation, and Japanese animation takes things from western animation. I might have it backwards, but wasn't it Disney that started out with the cute little animals following around the female leads? And now that has become a common and cliche element found in anime. Seriously, watching Hakujaden is like watching Snow White. It's a give and take relationship when it comes to these things..

Plus I mean.. It isn't anything new for Disney to be heavily copying elements from certain anime...

Well I don't really see how Pixar is "heavily" influenced by anime, or how Disney is "heavily" copying it. Animation around the world obviously influences each other, but I don't see much of a connection between Pixar's films and anime, and especially the anime having been produced recently. Anime origins was heavily influenced by Disney origins though (if I remember correctly), I just don't think thats the case anymore, especially with the animators in Japan blocking off Pixar like they are. It just seems to me that they're insulting companies from America, who are obviously currently more successful than them (financially), while they aren't currently coming up with anything. I wouldn't mind so much if they were actually coming up with anything that I really liked anymore. I think focusing on the niche otaku crowds is a mistake, and that they should try to achieve mainstream again, instead of sitting around complaining, and pandering to the safe otaku crowd.
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Metal_Slug



Joined: 20 Nov 2009
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:10 pm Reply with quote
Pandadice wrote:

Last Fall season we had Nyan Koi, Seitokai no Ichizon, Sora no Otoshimono, Shin Koihime Musou, Nogizaka 2.. These all are shows that if Zac watched them, his reaction would probably be like "uhgg, moe garbage". And these are the sort of ecchi/fanservice centric shows that, I'll agree, are really hurting the fanbase.

You didn't find Balsa nice to look at? I mean, I wouldn't put her on a "hottest chicks list", but the animation quality and characters designs were just so good in that series, I definitely found her and everyone else in that series nice to look at.

I have the same "ughh, moe garbage" reaction. I can't even really look at moe shows or anything to do with moe because I'm just so sick and done with it, and it doesn't appeal to me whatsoever. (Unless you count Haruhi, which is the only moe anime or anime approaching moe that I ever felt was pretty good) And it really is hurting the fanbase, because its alienating those that don't appreciate the niche stuff, and driving fans away from the whole genre.

And I personally was very refreshed by Moribito; the story, the animation quality and character designs, the no-moe element (lol), made me very appreciative. I didn't feel like it was the "best new thing", but it seemed like a step in the right direction.
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4nBlue



Joined: 28 Oct 2008
Posts: 350
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:17 pm Reply with quote
I don't see Hannah Montana - The Anime as something impossible. Like many have mentioned moe does not equal fanservice. And there has been many shoujo shows that have been also aimed at/gained popularity among otaku. Maria-sama ga Miteru was not originally aimed at male viewers but still gained popularity among otaku (MariMite books were the only shoujo light novel I saw at Toranoana's light novel section). Futari wa Pretty Cure was produced with both little girls and otaku as intented audiences (or so I have heard) and still there have been no controversies in countries it has been aired.
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loka



Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 363
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:45 pm Reply with quote
so it's not just the moe-themed shows, but all moe-styled characters in general, that must be purged from anime for you to be pleased?

when I think of moe-centric student council anime, I think of Manabi Straight not Seitokai no Ichizon (did you really watch it?). Sora no Otoshimono has a moe-styled character or two so now it's moe garbage? Baka and Test had an even more obnoxiously moe character(s) and it was well received.
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Sariachan



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 953
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:56 pm Reply with quote
I was reading the posts in this thread to understand what the podcast was about, since I didn't listen to it (I can't understand spoken English really well), and I found a couple of messages that had me lolling for minutes:
penguintruth wrote:
I can't wait for a slew of Christian-themed anime.

God is so tsundere. Tsun tsun in the Old Testament, dere dere in the New Testament.

Seljuk wrote:
It's...It's not like I wanted to save you, or anything!


ROFLMAO
Thank you guys, you just made my day.



P.S. Imho a partial solution for Japanese animation would be starting to make anime based on children/teenages books again... think what a multiple-seasons anime on Harry Potter, one season for each novel, could do. Wink
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vashfanatic
SubscriberSubscriber


Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3291
Location: Back stateside

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:25 pm Reply with quote
AkiraKaneda wrote:
Now I think you're casting the net too wide. This would include all books, music, films, TV shows, etc. apart from actual scriptures themselves. Is there a religious subculture that accepts less than professional quality filmmaking? Absolutely. But there are tons of Christians making quality material that may be religious in nature and entertaining, particularly when it comes to books and music. (I'm sure there are in other faiths as well, though I would not presume to speak for them.)

Welcome to the world of blanket generalizations and personal opinion. Wink It also depends on what you mean by "religion-sponsored," I suppose.

Quote:
I think the key issue here is that you aren't going to get many proselytizing Buddhists...a few, perhaps, but not as a whole.

I take it you've never heard of Souka Gakkai? Although you might have included them under NRMs. Still, they see themselves as orthodox Nichiren Buddhists.

Quote:
It seems to me that one major religion already promises 72 young virgins upon entry into paradise...how much more moe can you get? Wink

Well, most Muslims take that as a metaphor, but the ones that don't... why does the idea of Osama Bin Laden sponsoring a moe anime appeal to my very black sense of humor?

SariaChan wrote:
P.S. Imho a partial solution for Japanese animation would be starting to make anime based on children/teenages books again... think what a multiple-seasons anime on Harry Potter, one season for each novel, could do.

Except that starting with book 4, the Harry Potter "seasons" would have to be twice as long! Still, an English/Japanese partnership to make quality Harry Potter anime could be great idea. The books are popular all around the world. It would be a total genre mash-up of school slice-of-life, fantasy, action, romance, comedy, and drama. Give it a good dub and presto! it gets aired on ABC Family with as much frequency as the live action movies.
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AkiraKaneda



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 53

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:39 pm Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:
It also depends on what you mean by "religion-sponsored," I suppose.


Sure, I see that. A lot of Christian music that's decent is supported by labels that have secular ownership...in other words, they are selling to the Christian crowd, but the main thing is making money. (It's also why Christian music tends to be for the believer rather than the skeptic.)

vashfanatic wrote:

I take it you've never heard of Souka Gakkai? Although you might have included them under NRMs. Still, they see themselves as orthodox Nichiren Buddhists.


It's the exception that proves the rule. Buddhists in general don't mind sharing their belief system -- in fact, you could say that it was encouraged by the Buddha himself -- but they aren't particularly active in doing so, at least not as the active Westerner would see it. Unlike Christianity, there's only so much at stake when one rejects or accepts Buddhism.

vashfanatic wrote:
Well, most Muslims take that as a metaphor, but the ones that don't... why does the idea of Osama Bin Laden sponsoring a moe anime appeal to my very black sense of humor?


The mind reels. Wink
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doctordoom85



Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 1631

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:05 pm Reply with quote
Zac's "solution" was hilariously awesome.

LOL at the whole "Americans won't get it" deal. I laughed when I heard the creator of Serial Experiments Lain was surprised when the American audience had the same reactions as the Japanese audience, so this reminded me of that.

I have no problem with "moe meets this". Moe meets horror/mindscrew/tests of friendship worked insanely well in Higurashi/When They Cry, and "moe meets tragic story" worked well in the "Key trilogy". I also don't mind moe (Lucky Star for example) that aren't creepy at all except to idiots who automatically judges anyone reading/watching a story that involves pre-teen/teen girls (you know who you are Mad ). What I don't want is 90% of the season to be dominated by it. Thankfully, this isn't the case for the '10 season, or the R1 industry either.

Dear lord, no, just NO on the whole "Christian anime" thing. I'm a Christian myself (well, semi, I have trouble accepting a few parts of the Bible, and homophobes can bite me), but that's the last thing I want to see, accurate or not. Double no to the Hannah Montana anime. Laughing

So if we're not history buffs, is Night Raid still an enjoyable series? Because I'll admit, I have no idea what was going on between Japan and China in the 1930's. Can't blame me too much, by the time you get to that time period, history teachers seem more interested in only talking about events the US had a hand in (but I'll forgive my last one, as he was quite funny, especially his explanation on how "George Washington was an idiot sometimes").

Breaking Bad is definitely on my to-watch-list, but I need to finish collecting/watching the seasons of The Sopranos and Battlestar Galactica first. If I can talk him into it, me and my friend might check out How to Train a Dragon this weekend (we saw Kick-ass this past weekend, which rocked).
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Pandadice



Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:38 pm Reply with quote
loka wrote:
so it's not just the moe-themed shows, but all moe-styled characters in general, that must be purged from anime for you to be pleased?

when I think of moe-centric student council anime, I think of Manabi Straight not Seitokai no Ichizon (did you really watch it?). Sora no Otoshimono has a moe-styled character or two so now it's moe garbage? Baka and Test had an even more obnoxiously moe character(s) and it was well received.


If you read my post, you see where I said "last Fall season". That's why i mentioned Seitokai in stead of Manabi and I didn't mention Baka to Test.

Alright, so Seitokai isn't really a fanservice centric series, and after I posted that, I realized that. I'd say it's much more of the comedy type of series Chi was mentioning. It's a comedy parody romance, and i'd say it's more a "moe" anime than like, Sora no Otoshimono. I guess "fanservice/ecchi centric" wasn't the right phrase. It's more just like "female cahracter focused" anime. Like, the anime where the whole focus on the series is just bishoujos, and nothing else.

Sora no Otoshimono had more than just "a moe styled character or two". It's just a straight perverted harem comedy, and nothing else. The exact kind of mindless entertainment that Zac/other people complain about as "moe" anime.
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