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ABCBTom wrote:

If I had my guess, since Viz is doing a speed-up release of One Piece, and introducing chapters in Shonen Jump, that One Piece would be the manga that will have the first "simulcast" experiments.

[other stuff]

I would like to direct you to Viz's handling of Rin-ne. They release it weekly, online, in unison with the Japanese release. Once a volume has been published in print, they remove all but the first chapter(s) of that volume from their website.

I just checked, and while some groups attempted to scanlate the manga, they all seemed to have dropped out, with the last group only getting to chapter 16 -- and this was only based on random chapters. Viz is currently up to date with the Japanese release by hosting chapter 45 on the site.

I don't know if this model is really a smash-hit for Viz, per se, but they're doing a similar thing with SigIkki titles and other Shonen Sunday titles. That they haven't abandoned any of them I would think speaks to the relative success that they're seeing. Thus, it might be assumed that this is a viable model. It's already being done. If Shueisha can only whine and moan while not using using this model that has seen apparent success -- essentially avoiding a real alternative to scanlations of these series * -- then I've no sympathy for them.

*People might say, "But people would just complain about the services!" You always have malcontents -- no shit. But just because you cannot transport 100% of your readership over to your legal alternative to illegal viewing does not mean you don't bother with it.

ZiharkXVI wrote:

If the manga industry can't address these issues, then expect less manga. Expect a sort of black hole to appear sucking all creativity into it and that only those sold for a cheap buck survive.

At that point, the industry will either die and be remembered fondly or will transform through the help of new businesses. I mean, mangaka aren't going to just die I suppose. They just might not use a company like WSJ to get their stories out there.

Oh, we're in complete agreement there. I'm no fantasist that assumes the magic of the internet will cure everything.

Yeah, basically the publisher model that spawned everyone from Osamu Tezuka to Naoki Urasawa will die.

And from that, we'll have millions of Japanese webcomics, some good, some great, many mediocre, and more awful. And we all know how insanely profitable 99% of webcomics are. I'm sure most creators will be able to put in hours and hours of work after they get home from their 9 to 5 shift at their day job. Except it's more like 7am to 11pm shifts at most Japanese companies. With nights out drinking. And most manga chapters take about a week's worth of work.

Then you really will be waiting 6 to 12 months for your next chapter. Or you'll get really simplified art. Or manga designed to sell t-shirts. Whatevs.

I just think we should try and meet the publishers halfway.

Last edited by sdhd on Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:57 pm; edited 8 times in total

HellKorn wrote:

I would like to direct you to Viz's handling of Rin-ne. They release it weekly, online, in unison with the Japanese release. Once a volume has been published in print, they remove all but the first chapter(s) of that volume from their website.

Thanks for the tip. I did not know VIZ already have a site with manga to read. The problem with VIZ and Netcomics they don't promote their sites so how is a fan suppose to know they exist in the first place. Is it a secret where only a few selective people are invited. It's hard to spread the word if no one knows about the site existence.

Last edited by Paploo on Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

What boat is there to miss? Subscription webcomics have never done terribly well, many websites don't really make money, and anyone remember the great Flash Animation crash of 2000 when a bajillion companies were making cartoons for the internet and it just crashed horrifically when advertises saw there was no real money in it?? The only survivor I know of is Mondo Media- who came back from the dead by getting Happy Tree Friends on TV and DVD.

It's not like any comics publisher is out there making lots of money on webcomics- there's some cartoonists who are making a living on it, but not solely from the admoney of their comics- most of that comes from selling print eds. of their comics directly to their fans via mailorder- and even then, the number of webcomics whose print eds's are easily available at bookstores is pretty few, so it's a cottage industry. [I do webcomics, and it's a fun hobby, but it is more of a niche of the comics industry right now, than a leader in the field- the fact is that in order to make money, webcomics usually become real comics]

The only people who ARE making money at this are the pirates w/thousands of series that they don't have to pay anything for. If they had to pay artists the same page rates and royalties real publishers do, they'd be bleeding out debt.

VIZ and NetComics have their web stuff all over their websites- heck, NetComics website is nothing but webcomics with links to amazon listings of the print eds. I don't really see how they're not "promoting" them. You can only go so far with ad budgets. It's not like they're some kind of secret their hiding- VIZ did BIG pr for Rinne and SigIkki. I think if people don't know about SigIkki or NetComics, it's because they only visit the fake anime sites [ie-Fox,One, etc] that don't want you to know about stuff like that, and not the real ones like ANN

ANYONE can look at http://www.netcomics.com or http://www.sigikki.com The only reason they don't pop up quick in google searchs is becasue the scanlation aggregators take up so much of google's searches [I'm also guessing some might buy their position in google listings]

I'm sorry but.... " Is it a secret where only a few selective people are invited.".... are you kidding me?!?! If people can't be bothered with keeping themselves informed, that's kind of sad. I mean, ANN posts news about both VIZ and NetComics all the time. NetComics is a smaller pub, so I imagine they're busier paying for licensing fees, artists, and paying their staff then launching a large expensive online ad campaign--- to me they're doing something right, because they've outlasted lots of other startups and continue to publish a good number of books.

Anyhoo, VIZ is probably wiser to continue experimenting w/stuff like Rinne and SigIkki. Maybe relaunch Shojo Beat as web magazine w/3 or 4 titles, or have SJ USA's website run the latest Naruto chapters as a test run. It's still not clear if this is big enough to support itself, or if VIZ is just experimenting and absorbing the costs of these sites.

HellKorn wrote:

ABCBTom wrote:

If I had my guess, since Viz is doing a speed-up release of One Piece, and introducing chapters in Shonen Jump, that One Piece would be the manga that will have the first "simulcast" experiments.

[other stuff]

I would like to direct you to Viz's handling of Rin-ne. They release it weekly, online, in unison with the Japanese release. Once a volume has been published in print, they remove all but the first chapter(s) of that volume from their website.

I just checked, and while some groups attempted to scanlate the manga, they all seemed to have dropped out, with the last group only getting to chapter 16 -- and this was only based on random chapters. Viz is currently up to date with the Japanese release by hosting chapter 45 on the site.

I don't know if this model is really a smash-hit for Viz, per se, but they're doing a similar thing with SigIkki titles and other Shonen Sunday titles. That they haven't abandoned any of them I would think speaks to the relative success that they're seeing. Thus, it might be assumed that this is a viable model. It's already being done. If Shueisha can only whine and moan while not using using this model that has seen apparent success -- essentially avoiding a real alternative to scanlations of these series * -- then I've no sympathy for them.

*People might say, "But people would just complain about the services!" You always have malcontents -- no shit. But just because you cannot transport 100% of your readership over to your legal alternative to illegal viewing does not mean you don't bother with it.

That is true. I was aware of Rin-ne, but I'm not sure how good of an example that is, because as far as I can tell, nobody knows or cares about Rin-ne. Maybe they're sick of Takahashi recycling the same story in every single series, or it's just incredibly dull. So while I assume it's not bleeding money for Viz, I'm not quite sure how great a measure it is to check on a series' viability.

If they do it with Naruto, and the Naruto scanlations dry up, and Viz makes wild money off the project, I will fly myself to Japan to bash some heads in at Shueisha myself. And there would be no happier person in the world than I.

ABCBTom wrote:

Then you really will be waiting 6 to 12 months for your next chapter. Or you'll get really simplified art. Or manga designed to sell t-shirts. Whatevs.

I just think we should try and meet the publishers halfway.

That is a true point- my webcomic is currently weekly, so that means a 30 page story takes over 6 months to finish, which is why I've opted for shorter stories lately. I've done a lot of webcomics, and really like webcomcis in general, but it really pales in comparision to the amount of work you can do when you're getting paid to do it full time, and even the quality too for that matter. Working with an editor is very different from working by yourself from page to page

Paploo wrote:

I'm sorry but.... " Is it a secret where only a few selective people are invited.".... are you kidding me?!?! If people can't be bothered with keeping themselves informed, that's kind of sad. I mean, ANN posts news about both VIZ and NetComics all the time. NetComics is a smaller pub, so I imagine they're busier paying for licensing fees, artists, and paying their staff then launching a large expensive online ad campaign--- to me they're doing something right, because they've outlasted lots of other startups and continue to publish a good number of books.

My life does not center around ANN, VIZ, Netcomics, anime, and manga. I know about Netcomics over a year ago when I wanted to buy 100% Perfect Girl and wanted to know who published it. I google it and stumbled on Netcomics.com by accident. I did not read it on ANN.

For VIZ I just found out today due to HellKorn's post. I did not read that on ANN either.

I believe your assumption is wrong in regards to people knowing about VIZ and Netcomics manga website existence because the comments on this article says otherwise with the exception of you and a few other people.

sdhd wrote:

My life does not center around ANN, VIZ, Netcomics, anime, and manga. I know about Netcomics over a year ago when I wanted to buy 100% Perfect Girl and wanted to know who published it. I google it and stumbled on Netcomics.com by accident. I did not read it on ANN.

For VIZ I just found out today due to HellKorn's post. I did not read that on ANN either.

I believe your assumption is wrong in regards to people knowing about VIZ and Netcomics manga website existence because the comments on this article says otherwise with the exception of you and a few other people.

It's not hard to keep yourself informed. You don't have to pay to get this information, you just have to look up info about publishers or browse online catalogues like Amazon or RightStuf's. Or spend 5 minutes browsing ANN's mainpage.

I mean, it's not like they're [or other fans are] keeping it all a
secret, and it's strange to frame it that way 0_o No one is trying to keep this is a secret, if anything they want you to know more, more, more. Did you know a lot of Seven Sea's OEL works are on their website? http://www.gomanga.com/

I'm guessing the reason people aren't as informed as they should be is be cause they go to websites that don't have a high level of legit content for their anime/manga info.

Paploo wrote:

What boat is there to miss? Subscription webcomics have never done terribly well, many websites don't really make money, and anyone remember the great Flash Animation crash of 2000 when a bajillion companies were making cartoons for the internet and it just crashed horrifically when advertises saw there was no real money in it?? The only survivor I know of is Mondo Media- who came back from the dead by getting Happy Tree Friends on TV and DVD.

*rolls eyes*

Did I say webcomics?

Did I?

What I was referring to is the fact that digital is fast overtaking print as a preferred medium. I didn't say the manga providers should have produced webcomics.

Clearly the webcomic format is problematic. Perhaps they are not as far from the answer as they appear to be, but that's another story.

But that doesn't mean a digital solution doesn't exist. And the point I was making is the companies made the INCORRECT choice of just ignoring all of this for YEARS.

Years. Think about it. Had they taken the initiative and shaped the digital market early on, things like scanlators might not be the problem they are today.

You know, we talk now of what to do - but it very well may be too late to do anything. The "market" is already in place (steal and survive as I call it). Scanlators and readers firmly entrenched and no amount of self-righteous preaching is gonna eject them from where they are at. As I stated earlier, there is no need whatsoever to do any of the things you are suggesting when you can click and find everything you want on a website scanlated and downloadable. These things have enjoyed no competition. No serious costs. No legal challenges. Nothing. In effect, they've won the early battles by just being ignored.

I'm actually not sure of what the companies should have done in the beginning. A lot of "What ifs" there. Most likely they should have been doing what VIZ is doing now. Experimenting to find a solution. But I know just ignoring the problem and hoping it would all blow away was not a good plan of action. These companies really just grabbed the shovel and helped dig their own graves here, if we are indeed seeing them suffer at the hands of the scanlators.

Last edited by sdhd on Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

Paploo wrote:

I'm guessing the reason people aren't as informed as they should be is be cause they go to websites that don't have a high level of legit content for their anime/manga info.

Glad to know you are on top of everything in regards to manga and if there is an award for it you would win the prize.

It is the responsibility of the manga companies to get their information out there to the fans. It is not the responsibility of the fans to do the companies homework for them.

I have no real problem with this but what about some one like me who likes the berserk, eden, mpd, stuff that is more for the older group of people that doesn't get lisensed very often and only way we can see new stuff is internet.

akmid wrote:

I have no real problem with this but what about some one like me who likes the berserk, eden, mpd, stuff that is more for the older group of people that doesn't get lisensed very often and only way we can see new stuff is internet.

......... that's an odd point to make when all 3 series are licensed and available from the kings of seinen manga, Dark Horse. There's a lot of seinen not licensed yet, all the more reason to get DH's releases ASAP so they'll keep licensing more seinen titles. If you want more like that, support their large catalogue of seinen works, and ask them to license new ones.

Paploo wrote:

akmid wrote:

I have no real problem with this but what about some one like me who likes the berserk, eden, mpd, stuff that is more for the older group of people that doesn't get lisensed very often and only way we can see new stuff is internet.

......... that's an odd point to make when all 3 series are licensed and available from the kings of seinen manga, Dark Horse. There's a lot of seinen not licensed yet, all the more reason to get DH's releases ASAP so they'll keep licensing more seinen titles. If you want more like that, support their large catalogue of seinen works, and ask them to license new ones.

I know they are lisenced i was saying there is alot out there that is not lisenced because of may not sale good because of age limit. So for me i have to download ones not lisensed. But i do support the ones that are I buy the ones that come out.

akmid wrote:

Paploo wrote:

akmid wrote:

I have no real problem with this but what about some one like me who likes the berserk, eden, mpd, stuff that is more for the older group of people that doesn't get lisensed very often and only way we can see new stuff is internet.

......... that's an odd point to make when all 3 series are licensed and available from the kings of seinen manga, Dark Horse. There's a lot of seinen not licensed yet, all the more reason to get DH's releases ASAP so they'll keep licensing more seinen titles. If you want more like that, support their large catalogue of seinen works, and ask them to license new ones.

I know they are lisenced i was saying there is alot out there that is not lisenced because of may not sale good because of age limit. So for me i have to download ones not lisensed. But i do support the ones that are I buy the ones that come out.

As a fan of all of those series, I have to say... !!?!

The reason Dark Horse is sitting on them, and some series like Reiko the Zombie Shop have been put on infinite hiatus is because they don't sell!

The reason they're unavailable is because nobody buys them... but me and you, apparently.

Berserk's actually done pretty well. Apparently when fans get behind a series and buy it en masse, a 30+ volume seinen series is possible [also, Lone Wolf and Cub]. DH doesn't sell to online anime fans though, they sell to comic shop fans, a different sort of collector.

Anyhoo, if you want Seinen titles, buy up SigIkki and Dark Horse titles and stop reading scanlations. And stop making them if you make them. It's become more clear then ever to me that these do nothing but harm to the industry and creators at this point, and have no real valid reason to exist.

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