Forum - View topicANNCast - Divine Ed-ification
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Tanteikingdomkey
 Posts: 2346 |
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remind me who we are stealing from kindaichi is 10 years old, and tokyopop dropped the manga. and the lack of fan subs is not causing people to buy the discontinued partial release singles. out of 142 episodes only around 40 got released on dvd. so I would love to see what harm I am doing to the industry, versus string up interest in the series again. also what are we stealing excatly credit for making the episode, NO we translate the credits in the opening most of the time, and we are making zero money from this so I would love to know what I am stealing since I am not steal the credit for the work, or any other part of the episode, the shows are not licensed and will not become licensed (it has been over 10 years since the episodes we are working on came out) so we are not stealing profits. so please tell me what am I stealing my fan subbing a ten year old mystery show. |
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5824 Location: Virginia, United States |
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Don't take it too personal. I agree with you. This issues of fansubbing and scanlations are not black and white issues, no matter how either side seeks to portray it. There is a middle ground that embraces both sides of the issue. |
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Tanteikingdomkey
Posts: 2346 |
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it is a little hard not to when you are called a theif and then stereotyped in with a bunch of thieves |
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Kalessin
 Posts: 931 |
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In terms of copyright law, it doesn't matter whether anyone is losing money over something, or whether it has ever been released in your language or ever will. A fansub or scanlation group is taking something that they have no legal right to and distributing it to others without any permission from the people who do have the legal rights for the product. So, from a legal standpoint, any and all fansub and scanlation groups are breaking the law. And there are people who will view any and all fansub and scanlation groups as criminal.
I think that it's quite clear that anyone who scans or rips an R1 release and uploads it for consumption by the very people in the R1 market who could and should be buying it, you're dealing with outright theft. The issue that makes it so that so many groups fansub and scanlate stuff and so many otherwise law-abiding folks would choose to fansub/scanlate something or download something that has bend fansubbed/scanlated is all of the stuff which hasn't been release for R1 yet. And that's where things start to get grey. Because while legally, they may be in the wrong, many would argue that it's okay because they cannot legally get the product in their own language. And at that point, it often becomes an economic argument with the idea that if it does not economically harm the rights holders or if it actually helps them once the product is released in R1, then it's okay. Whether that is true or not is up for much debate, and what is generally up for the most debate are new shows which have not yet had the chance to be licensed and released in R1. The fact that they've been fansubbed/scanlated could garner fans and increase future sales when the product finally is licensed, or it could mean that a bunch of people who would have bought the product now never will because they've already seen it. The reality is likely that you get some of both, which of course raises the question of which you get more of. What this podcast made quite clear is that there are folks who will get pirated copies of R1 releases if they can rather than pay. It doesn't make it clear one way or another for releases which have been scanlated long before the R1 release. However, it's hard to believe that when you lose 20% of your sales over a pirated R1 release, you won't lose those same sales over a fan-translated scanlation of the R2 release. And you may lose more because of all of the folks who will grab the first release available and won't buy stuff after that (since in that case, the fan translation would be out first rather than the R1 release). You'd have to gain more sales by that extra exposure than you lose by that extra exposure for it to be beneficial economically, and all of the signs indicate that that's not generally the case. And the situation is almost certainly quite similar with fansubs. Whether any fansubs/scanlations are really okay, or how much they are or aren't okay, or under what circumstances - if any - they could be okay would be a great, long debate. However, three things are quite clear: 1. In the US, fansubs and scanlations are never legal because they break copyright law. This is likely true for most other countries as well - particularly those who signed the Berne Convention. 2. As Ed from Vertical made a big point of, fansubs and scanlations take the property out of the hands of the rights holders and can end up using it in ways that they don't approve of. Much as we all love this stuff, we don't technically have a right to have it. That's up to the rights holders. 3. Scanlations and fansubs can and will result in some loss of sales. Whether the net result, economically, is better for the rights holders and license holders is not entirely clear, but the overall picture makes it look like it's generally very much negative, and in some cases, we know that it was negative. Everyone has to decide for themselves what they're going to do about fansubs and scanlations, but they are having a definite impact on the current anime and manga markets, and any time that you watch or read something that you didn't pay for when you could have paid for it (be it then or when it's legally released), you are, by definition, stealing from the producer of that product. Personally, I think that if everyone purchased the stuff that they had watched fansubbed or read scanlated once it was released in R1, then it generally wouldn't really be a problem. But there are many people who watch or read without ever paying, and that is most definitely a problem. And this whole post completely ignored the fact that fan-translating stuff for R1 generally means making stuff available for folks in R2 where they can buy it just fine, and in that sense, makes it no different from the folks who posted scanlations of Vertical's releases. This whole business is just a mess, and I would hope that we'd all try to be as honest as possible about it in what we choose to do about it. |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5824 Location: Virginia, United States |
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I have been watching anime since the Eighties. If we left it to the
Japanese, there would be no anime in the West. I have never bought into the argument, that if the Japanese don't want us to see anime, then we don't have a right to see it. If there is a will, then there will be a way. It is human nature to want to watch something you like, and human nature to find ways to get it, if someone puts up roadblocks to prevent you from watching it. This applies to everything, not just anime. This is honesty. I believe the creators of anime should receive their royalities, after all it is their work. But if they do not intend to sell their product overseas......... Should there be fansubs of Naruto, Bleach, and GiTS...No Should the fans of series that are not going to be licensed in the United States be forbidden from seeing them...No There are no easy answers to this issue, but taking the extreme end of either side is to ignore the reality of the situation. |
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Fallen Wings
 Posts: 160 Location: Australia |
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I'm going to be the odd one out and say that while I like mecha and old school - I really didn't like TTGL.
On the topic of scanlations this is my view: 1) They are illegal. No ifs or buts, they are taking someones work and using them without their permission. 2) At least they are illegal and not getting paid. They are really just fans doing it because they want to get it out there. (except for those nasty groups but let's not get into that ...) 3) I believe that scanlating should have more control over what they do scan. I'm talking about the 1970's stuff that no company will touch (except Vertical ... maybe Viz) Like Ed said, they aren't going to bring over something like Demon Lord Dante, so my question is why aren't groups doing stuff like that? 4) For heaven sakes, anime fans really need to start buying stuff. I watch fansubs/ read scanlations and after it comes out in Aus/ USA I go get it. I think the major issue is GETTING people to buy manga. I know that I would think about buying English manga MORE if I knew there would be colour pages, extras, oneshots etc. Heck, I enjoy listening to the English voice actors muck around with their characters - those outtakes. I would enjoy buying more anime if I got those for bonuses. It is just the ethics are all wrong. If you sample something - sure. Just as you are allowed to try ad new car to buy - or sit down and watch a TV - you should be able to do that with manga. But I can still imagine that even with IKKI or Shounen Sunday online - people are going to leech and not buy the stuff even if it was online legally. And we need to change it - even if it means more bang for your buck. |
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Kalessin
Posts: 931 |
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Except that whether you want it or not has no bearing on your rights on the matter. The copyright holders hold the rights, not us. We can only have it because they choose to sell it. And they have every legal right to restrict sales to a particular region if they choose to. It sucks when they do, but it's their right. If you were to write a book or create movie, and you lent it to a friend, and that friend chose to upload it without your permission, making it available to millions if not billions of people for free, would you be okay with that? He has no right to distribute it, and they have no right to have it. You could choose to let him do that - at which point you're excercising your rights - but they have no right to distribute, reproduce, or alter your material without your permission. Now, fortunately, it's not usually an issue that the Japanese only want their stuff sold in Japan. The issue is usually that you can't obtain English translations of it legally, and that the only way to obtain the actual product at all is to import it from Japan, which tends to be ludicrously expensive. Fortunately, unlike 15 or 20 years ago, it's actually quite easy now to purchase products from Japan online. It's just not cheap. So, generally, we have a legal way to obtain this stuff, just not a legal way to obtain it cheaply or in English. Fansubs give us a way to have it in English, and the person who downloads it can choose whether or not to buy the Japanese product which is available. Of course, if you're talking about stuff which is old enough, it may no longer be available, and you get into arguments over distributing or reproducing materials which are out of print, which is a related but separate issue.
This, I tend to agree with. What everyone does is their choice, and I think that people can watch fansubs and read scanlations without ultimately stealing from the rights holders (generally by buying the stuff once it becomes available). But just the same, we don't have any right to do it. From a legal standpoint, I don't think that there's really any question on the matter. Fansubs and scanlations are illegal. We have no right to this material, and when we do not purchase it from the rights holders directly or indirectly, or otherwise get permission from them to have the product, we're technically stealing. |
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ZakuAce
 Posts: 525 Location: SE Wisconsin |
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I must be going against human nature by avoiding fansubs. Maybe I'm not human?
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5824 Location: Virginia, United States |
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There are always exceptions. But it is your choice. If you feel that if the Japanese don't want you to read or see their material and you feel like honoring their decision, more power to you. |
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Tanteikingdomkey
Posts: 2346 |
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there are some people who everything they like gets licensed, however if you like sports or detective anime then you probably won't get it licensed, and if you like detective series (conan/case closed and spiral aside and even the anime for that has about 100 episodes out of 570 with no or bad subtitles) you probably won't find it fan subbed or scantalated or at least much of it. that's why I formed my group that has somehow succeed. and to answer someone elses question as to why all the retro stuff is not being done while all the new stuff is. generally it is because the general anime fan wants the newest hottest show, not a show with bad art in comparison (I know what you are thinking I work on a over ten year old mystery series remember). also the main problem with the older stuff is, what ones do you do. It is hard enough to sort through all the new stuff that comes out, how do you deal with a 30 year back log. so unless it is a fairly well know classic that does not have good subs, or is well know as a very good show and has some episodes done already, or if it is like kindaichi where it got published in the somewhere and then dropped or a later work of the mangaka was popular then it will probably be hard to get people to work on it or find a translator for it |
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ZakuAce
Posts: 525 Location: SE Wisconsin |
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I'd like to believe I'm the rule, not the exception. But that's probably just wishful thinking. |
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Kalessin
Posts: 931 |
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Well, I guess that that's a testament to how much anime that you've watched and how short a typical anime is. If you were to say that about US shows, it would be quite a bit more mind boggling with 22 hour episodes per season and potentially 5+ seasons per show. 6 - 10 shows in that kind of context is big. With anime, it's typically 13 or 26 half hour episodes for the whole show, so it's a very different scale that you're dealing with. When it comes down to it, I suppose that it isn't all that surprising that 6 - 10 shows would manage to be "rarely," but I think that it just makes it hit home for me how much anime some of us really watch that that many could be such a small percentage of what someone watches. If I didn't watch much mecha, then I'd probably be in a similar situation to you percentage wise (but I watch a fair bit of mecha). As for what qualifies as a mecha show, no offense to Daryl, but I think that he's nuts. I don't see what the title of a series has to do with anything. It's the content of as story that determines its genre, not its title. For instance, your typical moe show doesn't have anything moe in its title. Many harem shows don't have anything indicating anything harem-esque in the title. Your typical shounen fighting show doesn't really have anything indicating that in its title. If anything, it's usually just named after the main character, or in some cases after nothing whatsoever to do with the show (e.g. Bleach). I could create and name a show Super Mecha Droid and have the main character like an anime named Super Mecha Droid with a mech named Super Mecha Droid in it and have nothing else even vaguely mecha about the show and it wouldn't be a mecha show. You'd just have someone in it who liked a mecha show. Conversely, I could name a show Rosetta or something else very un-mecha and unrelated to any mecha in the show and yet have absolutely everything in the show be about designing mecha, fighting with mecha, or anything else that you can think of to do with mecha, and that would definitely be a mecha show. I don't understand how Daryl could come to the conclusion that the genre has anything to do with the title of a show. A title can only encompass so much of the story when it tries to be representative of it, and often titles mean absolutely nothing. The genre or genres of a show is determined by that show's content, not its title. |
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agila61
 Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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Several points: (1) When the majority of sales were in bricks and mortar stores at MSRP, then the bricks and mortar stores have an incentive to market the product. The sales by the online distributers are more to those explicitly searching for that title, and less to people "just browsing". (2) When the majority of sales were in bricks and mortar stores at MSRP, then that supports the distributor selling direct at MSRP, in which case they keep that 50% retail margin. Even though in the days of primarily print catalogs and telephone order taking, that was not all extra profit margin, a lot of it was. (3) And don't neglect that point about the increased concentration in retailers ... the margin between wholesale price and MSRP can be the same, but if the retailer demands more favorable return terms (for example, a small retailer that accepts a return may have to sell it at a discount to try to recoup their cost, while a big retailer may insist on the right to ship returns back for a refund) and other terms, the profit to the distributor shrinks. The simplest way to expand on "online sales from distributor only" is to go to an old-fashioned wholesaler/retailer model by providing a substantial multiple-item carton discount, and if a RightStuf or Amazon store front wants to buy a carton or five and sell them one at a time, that's fine, but there is no print-style publisher / display-retailer relationship ... the third party retailer gets the same terms that an anime club would get to buy a carton of that title. |
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CG-LOVER
 Posts: 355 Location: East Lansing, MI |
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So are you telling me that the only thing you're subbing are old shows that never got picked up or were discontinued? Is that what you're trying to tell me? Or is it perhaps more than just that.
Crediting the creators of the anime isn't bringing them the money they deserve now is it? Whether you make money off of it or not is irrelevant, you're still taking something that is supposed to be paid for. Again is it only the old shows that you're subbing, or are you subbing things newer than that; things that might have the potential to reach the states but won't because of piracy? |
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Tanteikingdomkey
Posts: 2346 |
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We are subbing kindaichi shonen no jikembo which ran from 1996-1999, and we are providing another group the translators for night raid because the translators wanted to do something modern and where tired of some of the bad fansubs that where out there for it. so we teamed up with another group and do night as it is airing. being a fan of the show I am can say that it will get to the US via one company or another, it is just that good and I can say popular since I have the numbers to prove it. I can say right now that us subbing it is not going to affect it's oversea performance since we are one of many groups that are doing it. and as for kindaichi we are the first group to do it in almost three years. this show has been passed up by the industry and for good reason. it is in the detective niche market of anime, which like sports anime has generally underperformed. it is also a 148 episode series. also it is way to old to be considered for release, because once again, retro anime does not sell well enough. even if it has GREAT!!! cases, it has those strikes against it and thus will never see a US release. we filll in the gaps that the industry can not fill if they are being financially responsible, and we also do provide qaulity subs for people who would only watch it if it was on tv or was on their hard drive (this happens in japan as well, everyone is not going to buy every show they like). |
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