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Lord of Fire wrote:

Let's get one thing straight, shall we? Fansubs are NOT killing the anime industry, just like downloading music doesn't kill the music industry, despite what the RIAA would like you to believe.

Really?
It has undergone a huge change. Back when I was buying metal in the 80's, bands toured to support record sales. Tours were expected to lose money because they were advertising. Now friends tell me it's more the opposite-that bands expect to make money off live shows.
I swear we had so many bands to pick from back then & now the music section at Best Buy seems smaller than the ones I remember art Wherehouse.
I have a lot of lps from nice little bands. Who's to say those little bands would have a chance nowadays?

How big exactly is the American anime industry compared to the Japanese one? Last I heard, not as big as I think some people here tend to believe. It's hardly a profitable market, so if dubbing corporations (or rather, the licensing companies that hire them) are facing the music, it's their own fault for letting it get this far. Tell me, how many 'quality' shows did a company like FUNimation license this past year? From what I've read, not many, compared to the shows that were quite successful on both sides of the Pacific. Would it be surprising then that any show that gets dubbed for them (by BZ! or otherwise) would thus fail to become truly popular, resulting in loss of sale? I'd say not.
To me the music scene seems more geared toward the hit songs fans. I was always an album gal-often preferring songs that never got air-time on the radio.

Lord of Fire wrote:

The anime market in America is very small. Only a handful of new shows get licensed each month and it always seems as if they get the wrong ones. I've seen numerous complaints about how Bakemonogatari or K-ON! was never licensed (and probably never will) and though I understand WHY it doesn't happen (it would cost licensing companies an arm and a leg to pay the licensing fees), it might be a good idea to take the plunge once in a while and draw in a show that's done extremely well in Japan and has been positively reviewed overseas.

Everything has fans.
However what does well in Japan doesn't necessarily do well here & what is big here isn't always popular in Japan. Witness the talk that the Trigun movie was made with the US audience in mind. Same for Helling Ultimate.
However, we're in financial stormy waters so the ability for many of us to buy isn't what it was. I'm buying way less. I've probably added less than 100 dvds to my collection in the last year. My collection is around 2300 dvds & I started around 2002 so I did my share back then, but I'm waiting for the cheapest set on a lot of titles I want.
Not to mention vocal fans don't always equal financial success.
I see far more gals supporting BL dvds even though they are almost always sub-only. The guy-friendly title threads are almost always full of guys whining about whether there will be a dub or not. Granted, the lack of a dub hurts the English dubbing companies which we are discussing here, but it does stand to reason not every title can afford a dub in the US. If your title comes over without a dub, buying it anyway supports the licensor who may put those profits into the dub of a title they believe will sell better. It's like selling a car or a home-will the new paint job or wheels increas the cost enough to justify the sale, or should the seller go for "as is" & sell it for what s/he can?

Lord of Fire wrote:

How do many people at once get exposed to said big hits? Ten to one it's fansubs.

You lose.
This site now we've lost Newtype USA which was my source as I was amassing the first 2000 dvds of my collection. I had dial-up until about 2 yrs ago. Even free streaming was so annoying play-freeze-play-freeze.

Lord of Fire wrote:

I doubt ANN plays such an enormous role in advertisement of (potentially) popular anime. Even if all the reviewers were to be highly positive of a show, that doesn't mean the general audience likes it as well, because there are far more anime watchers then there are ANN reviewers and I don't think a handful of reviewers are representative of the entire (American) anime community.

Reviews? I'm supposed to buy anime based on reviews?
No one told me that.
I thought I was supposed to use the same criteria I do for movies here in the US. Favorite actors. Favorite directors. Favorite authors. Waiting for reviews usually means one can't see it the day it opens because the reviews aren't always up before the opening.
If I'm buying based on those things, why the hell do I need to see a fansub?

Lord of Fire wrote:

Oh, and for Pete's sake, stop believing that the 'pros' are always better than the fansubbers. The only thing that differs the former from the latter is a college certificate and sometimes not even that. Also, fansubbers usually don't have access to the scripts and translate by ear and are thus prone to making mistakes faster. I'm sure the pros would do equally good/bad if they didn't have the official scripts lying in front of them and/or had to check with certain people to see if they did a good job.

So if I'm paying $10 for a manga, why should I pay for a lousy translation? I saw Kuroshitsuji in Kinokunia a couple yrs ago & started buying the manga because the art looked nice even though I can't read Japanese. While I prayed for it to be licensed, I did break down & read an online fansub of it. I will tell you that fansub reeks compared to the official Yen Press version which I am buying. (Sad to see the magazine go, but I'm hoping this means we might get a faster release schedule for this title?) There are certain subtle points that are completely missed by said fan translators. (Buy the Yen Press version, kiddies. It rocks)
When Viz was releasing the 4Kids One Piece, I did buy some of the bootleg versions because my daughter was really into One Piece & I was buying the Official Viz release so I saw it as the only way to get the original Japanese voices. It reeked so bad. Horrible. Horrible. It was fun to hear the Japanese voice actors deliver the lines, but often god only knows what they were saying because the subtitles were awful (Thank you Funi. I hope you continue bringing us One Piece.)

Quote:

Actually....many of "us" do call them that. Hell, in this thread alone, I think there were like 10 people calling dub fans retarded losers for watching dubs.

I consider it stealing, but see downloaders as more moochers-like the guys who never bring food to the office potluck, but are there to get a plate when it's down to leftovers after a couple hours. I hate then because I understand their part in this issue.

Quote:

Point and case; who the hell cares how one watches their anime? At the end of the day, we're all in the same classification: anime fans.

Because some of us don't like watching anime on our computer. Some of us like having the dvd, but I have spoken to so many people who have given up buying anime for downloading it for free. Every person who does that is one less sale & all those one less sales add up to less anime being licensed. It would be wonderful to be back in the day where they were licensing everything under the sun & dubbing it, but times have changed. Bang Zoom has always been a quality company that actually seems to respect the original product (I have issues with Funi's "re-versioned" titles-however I'm buying then so it doesn't matter)
When you download that fansub, no one is getting paid who had anything to do with making the show. I always thought being a fan was all about supporting the product, not just stealing/mooching a view of it. I want the people who made it to know I appreciate their work.
I mean, what do you downloaders say when you go meet a band you've illegally downloaded the music of? Do you say "I've never paid for your music. I copied it all illegally off the internet"? If you went to a con & the director of an anime you've enjoyed via fansubs was there, would you have the nerve to tell the person you saw the show without paying for it?
If you can't do that, you know there's something wrong.

PetrifiedJello wrote:

To date, I've yet to see The Anime Network on a tier, and this is an important step missing from the attempts. Hell, just look how long it took Cartoon Network to appear on a tier.

Wasn't Cartoon Network a basic tier channel in most places very soon after launching? I remember seeing it on basic tier in the mid 90s. And yes, the free TAN linear channel never got any traction into most major markets.

Quote:

The Anime Network is now an on-demand service, and even this is scarce between cable companies.

TAN was always a (S)VOD service from the beginning. They attempted to do a linear channel too. Cable companies are always more willing to pick up (S)VOD channels than linear channels.

WhosAsking wrote:

What got GONZO in trouble? Did they overextend by producing too much? Did they stray too far from norms? Or something else? Just curious.

GONZO's main flaw is that they were extremely dependent on outside money. They spent a lot of money producing things with a more western audience that had almost no appeal to their home audience. Most telling should be that their best selling title in R2 ever was Strike Witches (and before that was Vandread).

Hmmm hard to misconstrue the " fansub groups more as a whole because they do it for the fandom; they do it because they're fans (hence the term 'fan subs'). They put more heart into it because really, their only motivation is seeing the show and hoping other people do too. Most anime distributors SAY they care about that - and to some extent they do, but in the end - it's business; and the only thing that matters is money." As something that implies that it's somehow wrong to make money from anime, that a lack of a profit motive and respect makes one "purer." Even though that is why anime exists in the first place, make money. So care to elaborate further that your quote isn't what you meant, what subtle difference I'm missing?

If the licensing company didn't want to do it, it wouldn't be licensed either. So to me it still reads that having a profit motive taints the experience in some metaphysical way whereas a group that lacks said profit motive keeps the experience "pure" Even though you say that both are fans, one group seems better than the other, but I thought you said "All fans are equal." So elaborate please.

Last edited by CCSYueh on Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

mdo7 wrote:

I'm afraid I have to reveal the truth. Did you know the people that hate the English dub on anime are pulling double standard? They hate English dub on anime, but they are listening to Japanese dub on American/Western stuff. To prove I'm not crazy. I think you need to read this:

Why do many anime fans abhor dubs and yet, don't say a word when Japan dubs North American cartoons?

stop saying that all English dubs are full of fail and stop bashing English dubs just because the English actors are celebrities? Please? I have yet to hear anybody complain about BoA and Kappei Yamaguchi doing dubs (in fact, I’ve heard quite the opposite their cases). What's up with that?

You see those people who bash English dub anime have never complain about the Japanese dub of American stuff. How come I never hear complain of those?

Apples & oranges.
That Japanese VA's get way more support in their homeland is well known & even envied. I can't recall where I read the interview yrs ago, but some mag (did I find the link here maybe?) talked to a bunch of dubbing people including Bob Bergen, the voice of Porky Pig who commented union pay for domestic work is great, but in the US people don't know who the VA's are. He commented it would be wonderful if American fans did take notice as Japanese otaku did, but we don't. Cartoon dubbing here is a thankless job-pays bills, but maybe 5 out of 100 fans know the VA's name.
So Japanese fans prefer their VA's? We know that already. Kappei Yamaguchi is awesome.
The problem is here in the US & in other parts of the world the voice actors for a cartoon are not seen as anything special. Far more attention IS paid to the animation or the story. In general, cartoons are seen as product for kids. Hells bells, I remember Mickey Dolenz talking about the days when they had 3 actors dubbing entire cartoons which is why it is horribly sad we may be losing a dub studio. Hopefully this is just a lull & it will come back & Bang Zoom will still be around, but we've seen a lot of companies go away. I worked at Montgomery Ward's. Sears has been thru many changes. K-Mart. Woolworths. Thrifty Drug Store. I do miss some aspects of those stores, but times change. We're in some really dark times now. Some things will go away.

Quote:

And copyright infringement =/= stealing. I know you guys think it is, but it isn't. I can respect fansub groups more as a whole because they do it for the fandom; they do it because they're fans (hence the term 'fan subs'). They put more heart into it because really, their only motivation is seeing the show and hoping other people do too. Most anime distributors SAY they care about that - and to some extent they do, but in the end - it's business; and the only thing that matters is money.

I said I see it as stealing, but put it on the level of the office moocher. I hate doewnloaders because they have reduced sales. there is NOTHING on this planet that says YOU have a right to watch a cartoon from Japan. We used to have to jump thru all sorts of hoops back in the 70's to see shows. I knew a gal who booked a night in a hotel to see a show from England that was playing on a local channel in the next state over back in the 1970's.
I'm sorry. I've read comments from fansubbers here & it seems a certain amount of it is "glory"--can they get the sub up before the competition.
I've seen the reaction at Viz panels when people admit to downloading. It's usually a lot more animated than you're saying. More like gasps of air & "Please don't steal from our Japanese partners."
You say "online" Did you say "fansubs"? I think that might get a different response. Nowadays a lot of stations stream, so saying "online" is sort of cheating.
Eva is not just "story" were that so, it would not be marketed as heavily as it is.
Strike Witches got a good review here, didn't it? Obviously it's better than you think.

tempest wrote:

Jrittmayer wrote:

Those that don't support anime have NO RIGHT to be called fans.

I know other people who say this too. And I just can't agree (I wish I could).

To me a fan is someone who really (fanatically) likes the content. Sadly, devotion to the support of the creators isn't necessary to fit this description.

Certainly, the intelligent fan realizes that if they don't support the business, then there will be less of that content they're fans of.

Sadly many don't realize the implications of their behavior, and don't believe the people that try to explain it to them.

And its true, the collapse of the American anime market won't force the Japanese anime market to collapse. What lots of "fans" don't realize is that it will certainly hurt the Japanese market. It'll contribute to some studios going bankrupt, to some animators losing their jobs, and to less anime being made and lower average budgets for what is made.

So lets see, we have smart, supportive fans, and we have dumbass fans. They're all fans nonetheless.

-t

Eh, well you could CALL them fans, but if they truly WERE fans and were as you said "fanatic" about their hobby they WOULD support it.

We should really come up for a word for a fan who doesn't support their hobbies....

Meh. It's the times. Many industries are in Jeopardy like this. The car industry is the lowest it's ever been for a long time! Companies like Hummer and Saturn have gone out of buisiness, and GM has declaired bankruptcy (my dad works in the car industry, so I know this pretty well)! It's not just anime. A good example is, I live in Virginia, and I'm studing film, and VA refuses to fund film projects for financial reasons, so many studios are "dark" or out of buisiness. Once the economy turns around, whenever that may be, we may or may not see an increase in anime sales. As a future anime voice actor, I am a bit worried. But, hey! We came out of the video game crash of 1982/83, in which sales for video games went from pretty good to almost non-existant! This is similar, but not nearly to that extent! We'll just have to wait and see! But as for me, I'm doing my part and never watching a fansub for a licensed anime again!

If they are experiencing issues because of the internet downloading they should try doing what Funanimation and crunchyroll have been, stream the English and the Japanese releases on the internet at the same time or close to when they come out in Japan and make both parties happy. Funanimation has been doing this with the new FMA series brotherhood and D-Grayman (Which I am soo glad is growing in popularity) One episode of FMA on youtube has over 80 thousand views, that is excluding the ones on the funimation websites. I couldn't be happier with the approach funimation is taking, not only do I (a fan of the original Japanese sub) get the new episodes close to when they actual come out but anyone who prefers the English version is getting their share too. Same thing for Gintama, its a series that I highly doubt will ever be dubbed due to its complex Japanese history and cultural references/roots but crunchyroll streams them, legally a week after they air in Japan. Its not the death of the amine industry, the companies have to start adapting and putting their media on the internet. Besides isn't it kind of weird to have someone from a dub company tell the people who watch subs to stop downloading when they are watching the subs because they don't like the dubs and therefore wouldn't care if a dub company went under? You want them to stop then give the what they want too, the anime industry is made up of dubbers and subbers, some people want dub, some want sub, some don't care, either way you can't ignore the people who want dubs and you can't ignore the people who want subs. The other issue is of course that you don't want to wait until the dub comes out to find out something, like I'm sure everyone knows about this by now so they shouldn't be a problem but Bleach spoilers for anyone who hasn't made it past episode 60 and FMA brotherhood spoilers for anyone behind. Bleach was at about 100 or so episodes by the time it was released in dub, by that time the entire soul society arc finished and we were almost at the vizard arc. Anyone who watched the sub at that poitn would know what happens and have no interest (unless they were dub fans as well) in watching it in dub when they were already in the next arc, the dub fans if they wanted too bad enough could easily find a sub online to find out like what happened to Aizen if they really didn't want to wait, if they were on episode 1 they could already find almost 100 episodes online (Bleach is one of easiest to find) and therefore would also have no need to see the dub. FMA brotherhood on the other hand is released in both languages around the same time and very close to when they are released in Japan, I think they are a couple of weeks off but you can watch the show in both or either language without being 20 episodes ahead of one or the other, thats alot more effective. D-Grayman is being released in the same way, its a different scenario because it is highly popular in Japan but not well-known in English, sure there are already 103 episodes subbed and done illegally but with funimation releasing their own sub and dub at the same time it still proves to be more effective then what Bang Zoom does.

roxybudgy wrote:

Jrittmayer wrote:

Those that don't support anime have NO RIGHT to be called fans.

Because the title of "True Anime Fan" is so important Rolling Eyes

I doubt anime companies care if a rapist, murderer or lawyer buys their product, let alone worry about whether or not their customers are "True Anime Fan".

As a casual anime fan (oops, I mean casual anime dvd buyer, since I have no "right" to call myself a fan), I tend to wait for set releases to buy dvds at a cheaper price. Although I have downloaded fansubs of licenced series in the past, I have pretty much purchased all the DVDs as they become available (and when my paycheck becomes available Very Happy

).

Clearly the anime industry cannot survive on "True Anime Fan" alone, they need to quit blaming people who wouldn't buy their product regardless of the presence of fansubs or not.

First off, I never said anything about being a "True Fan" or not, just that if you want to consider your self a fan, whether it be a hardcore otaku or just a casual anime watcher, at least support it alittle.

You even said that you purchase anime, so why shouldn't I consider you a fan since you ARE supporting it? When I said that those who don't support anime shouldn't be considered fans I meant those who have hundreds of fansubs downloaded but haven't purchased a single one of them.

That is all.

Last edited by Haterater on Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

Quote:

That's why I said "more than you're directly supporting". The amount of money an animation/production company in Japan sees from R1 anime DVD/BD sales is PEANUTS.

Doesn't mean its right to not support. At least its something, and any little thing is good, no?

I see this as not the people who do spend occasionally, but the people who don't buy AT ALL. Who brag about their "stolen" collection and not really caring what happens to the people who make their favorite shows.

Quote:

No I agree with you there. I'll occasionally joke around with friends and be all "I HAVE [x] AMOUNT OF ANIME", but the ones who pride their entire fandom around it are pathetic.

Ah, gotcha! Wish there more people like yourself.

Key wrote:

EricJ wrote:

I'll see your Sgt Frog, and bet that any newbie could be hooked on one episode of Azumanga Daioh, whose power to accessibly grab newbies is ten times more potent than crack.
Yet no network will show AzD. Why, because of Mr. Kimura? --No, because CN only wants to show weed-humor and action, and SyFy and G4 want to show what CN shows (and gets a specific marketable demographic for).

No, it's because AzuDai is such a vastly different show from anything that is American-produced, and more laid-back fare like that has never done well on CN/AS's ratings. (Moribito, which is a more gradually-paced fantasy show but still has some intensive action, was, I believe, AS's least-viewed first-run anime to date and one of its least-viewed series ever.) Also, AzuDai has a long-established reputation for being very hit-or-miss.

Wich is probably why AS never broadcast it. And although Moribito is a very good series, it had low ratings cause the AS demo mostly like high octane series like bleach and FMA. Not susprised Bang Zoom is poed over fansubs cause Code Geass had that and more but unfortunately did had much viewership as expected cause of the bad timeslot. though I believed that CEO believed that it's the fansubs of CG that kept most away from it's AS run. I wouldnt blame him at all for being poed at fansubbers.

Howver he could try what shokugan is attempting and that's hiring those fansubsers like what they are attempting to do in order to get legit subs for Pocket Monsters D&P.

Also Japan needs to do it's part and reduce those licensing fees and such to make releases more affordable and to have them out in the US sooner,possibly a simulatenious relese like what Media Blasters did with Kite Liberator, or maybe try what's funi is doing with OP. cause if there's an official sub out, they will be no need for fansubs,litteraterly putting them out of business.

Oh, bull****. Rolling Eyes

The economy is the main factor in companies folding left-and-right. Not even the pure-legit buyers are buying like they used too.

And the reason Bang Zoom! (though I love them to death) are going under is the same reason Geneon went under. Because they did many of their dubs. Razz

The simple fact is there is/was too many companies in a non-competitive, price-gouging market (talk your way around it however you like; it's the truth).

Mr_Panda wrote:

The simple fact is there is/was too many companies in a non-competitive, price-gouging market (talk your way around it however you like; it's the truth).

See Zac's review of Kissxsis for my reaction to this. Prices are way down. Just look it up. Please.

ZakuAce wrote:

Mr_Panda wrote:

The simple fact is there is/was too many companies in a non-competitive, price-gouging market (talk your way around it however you like; it's the truth).

See Zac's review of Kissxsis for my reaction to this. Prices are way down. Just look it up. Please.

My comment (note the is/was) was mostly focused in a past tense. Continual sub-contractor failure is a ripple effect of the actual anime companies' failures and past industry practices, was my point. Not to mention there is now a smaller market for sub-contracting due to the smaller number of companies licensing.

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