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ANNCast - Shermanator Salvation


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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 8:01 pm Reply with quote
FaytLein wrote:
However, when it comes to business, could, maybe, and possibly are not things you want to talk about, since there is a level of uncertainty to it. And when you get small companies like Section 23/Funi/Bandai together, they are going to travel the path of least resistance, and not gamble on long odds for big gains.


Again, what companies will do. Irrelevant to what they should do.

Quote:
You don't incur extra cost by making double your product (in packaging, shipping, et al) and you make profit by selling the same amount as you did at 30. Heck, you can get rid of dubs, still charge 30 dollars and DOUBLE YOUR PROFIT.


Uh...no. That is false. As I explained before, you obviously sell at least somewhat less without a dub. So while it is possible you might increase profits (assuming sales don't fall too rapidly) but you certainly won't double them.

Look, this discussion is fast becoming redundant. I don't even know how I've been drawn into this whole dub or not debate. It has nothing to do with what I am saying. Yeah, fine. Maybe cutting costs is a good way to increase profits. Because of this though, you're claiming that somehow through some means you've yet to elaborate on in the slightest, the option to reduce prices is therefore rendered bad.
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GWOtaku



Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 678
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 8:19 pm Reply with quote
Interestingly enough, a very prompt statement has come out from Bandai in regard to Mr. Sherman's comments:

(hat tip: Anime Briefs)

Quote:
“In response to Mr. Sherman’s comments and how they were interpreted, Bandai Entertainment has no plans to close down. We actually had a very good year in 2009 and good results in the first quarter of 2010. We have new titles to announce soon and we will be exhibiting at Anime Expo, Otakon, and New York Anime Festival this year. Mr. Sherman’s speculations about the state of the anime industry are interesting, but not accurate as it pertains to Bandai Entertainment, except in regard to the point that he was actually trying to make that if the market trend continues where there is little support for dubbed anime products, we may unfortunately, discontinue creating dubs and focus on sub-only releases. Hopefully this does not happen. We continue to be grateful to the fans that support our business.”
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Almaz



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 134
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 8:36 pm Reply with quote
Nice to hear that Bandai quickly responded to the podcast. Seems like "misunderstandings" are everywhere. It would also be nice to see ANN put that up on their news.

I also liked the fact that people are correcting themselves on the use of "piracy." It is sad when people misuse words and become pawns of others. We all know that piracy was a term used for those on the sea who did killing, stealing, raping, etc. The use now is to paint ordinary people in the darkest light possible. First it was for people who took shows, music, etc and SOLD said items (bootlegs). Now, it is used for everyone who does something that the licensee does not like.

As of Hetalia, I kinda agree with Justin so far. I would not be so harsh with the words about the show. I did find it hilarious to have Zak get onto Justin about his criticism. I know quite of few times that Zak had hangups on certain shows. Hetalia, so far, reminds me a little of Ace Ventura "humor." I can watch shows like that and get a few laughs out of it. My brothers roll all over the floors with that type of comedy. However, I will watch more episodes to give it a fair shake.

I am surprised. The last discussion must have tired everyone out (knock on wood.) I figured the war on words would have erupted anyway. It is nice to have a quiet, civil forum.


Last edited by Almaz on Fri May 07, 2010 8:59 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 3782
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 8:39 pm Reply with quote
FaytLein wrote:
Which is why Bandai and Section 23 have switched to a mostly sub platform, it just means more money in their pocket, which is what all businesses want.

While this would seem to make sense, my reading states this isn't exactly how things work.

Most distributors pay for the cost of a series production up front. As an example, let's say "HAPi 32" pays $100,000 for a 13 episode series. Once produced in DVDs, the goal is to recoup the $100,000 as quickly as possible.

While a $19.99 price point may seem like a good idea, economics tells us it will take longer to produce any real return of investment. Imagine for a second if every title was sold at $19.99. People will still pick and choose titles, so if many choose "Series X" this month, and "Series P" next month, that's 30 days of delay.

You're under the impression anything over the $19.99 would be "doubling" of profits without a dub, but that's not true. You need to remember there's an initial cost which must be made first before profits are made. Time kills the $19.99 model. That's why FUNimation only applies its S.A.V.E. prices to older anime titles.

The "pick and choose" model has at least one guarantee for the prices of initial release and that's to maximize revenues early.

Some titles require the entire licensing fee up front while others have a portion paid, and revenues returned after the product ships. I'm guessing the former is much more in play now as DVD sales are dropping and it'd be foolish to think the Japanese aren't paying attention to this market.

The initial release of DVDs is when the most revenue is generated. Once the demand wanes, profits begin to fall. Retailers must then return the product or slash prices to move inventory (generally the latter). Now, compound this with more series and competition, and it's quite clear why many anime fans believe it's expensive because distributors can't lower prices further.

Licensing is killing this industry. The costs are getting higher while sales are getting lower. Something's going to have to change, but until this happens, expect your wallets to continue crying at the pain of buying anime.
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Dark Elf Warrior



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 228
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 9:28 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Licensing is killing this industry. The costs are getting higher while sales are getting lower. Something's going to have to change, but until this happens, expect your wallets to continue crying at the pain of buying anime.


They shouldn't license anime? Then how do the companies make money? You can't make money from something that's free, ya know. Don't tell me you're one of those people who believe anime should be free. I hate to break this to you, but money really does make the world go round. If it wasn't for money, companies wouldn't be getting any business and we would have never had our anime released.

What's really killing the industry are these reasons:
The economy. People are being more thrifty with their money.
Loss of interest. Some people just aren't interested in anime anymore. Several fans who were around during the heyday of anime back between 2002 and 2005 may not be fans any longer, and so have stopped buying anime all together. There have even been fans recently who are no longer interested.
Lack of good anime. There hasn't been any really good anime that have been released. Anime that were supposed to be big are now hated by even the anime fans.
The fans. Fans say they like anime, but since they're not buying it, they're not giving input (which is money) which helps the companies thrive. Anime is niche, so it hurts the companies when even just a small majority, who like anime, isn't buying it.

Aren't you the one who said you couldn't wait for Bandai to go under? And you think anime shouldn't be licensed anymore? What kind of anime fan are you? Are you even an anime fan? Cause if you are, why wouldn't you want it licensed? Why wouldn't you want it released?
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FaytLein



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 1260
Location: Williamsburg, VA
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 9:39 pm Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:

Most distributors pay for the cost of a series production up front. As an example, let's say "HAPi 32" pays $100,000 for a 13 episode series. Once produced in DVDs, the goal is to recoup the $100,000 as quickly as possible.


Thats true, but if you elect to not have a dub for a release, your cost goes down. Instead of it being 100,000 you have to recoup, it might be something like 80,000

Quote:
While a $19.99 price point may seem like a good idea, economics tells us it will take longer to produce any real return of investment. Imagine for a second if every title was sold at $19.99. People will still pick and choose titles, so if many choose "Series X" this month, and "Series P" next month, that's 30 days of delay.

You're under the impression anything over the $19.99 would be "doubling" of profits without a dub, but that's not true. You need to remember there's an initial cost which must be made first before profits are made. Time kills the $19.99 model. That's why FUNimation only applies its S.A.V.E. prices to older anime titles.


But if you don't have a dub, your cost is less. Maybe saying "doubling" was a bit too much to say, but if you lower cost but not drop price point, that means for each unit you sell your profit increases ever so slightly.
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Dorcas_Aurelia



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 5344
Location: Philly
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 10:28 pm Reply with quote
Ranma824 wrote:
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
So, Japan specifically told them they couldn't mess around with Endless Eight? Humorless jerks.

If they did, I wouldn't buy it.

And they're counting on my money.

Because they didn't, I'm not buying it. And I bought the special editions for all four discs of the original. That was about $160, I think. I'm willing to pay for something if it's worthwhile, but I'm not paying for a generic, repetitive piece of troll fodder.
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Almaz



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 134
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 10:39 pm Reply with quote
Dark Elf Warrior wrote:
Quote:
Licensing is killing this industry. The costs are getting higher while sales are getting lower. Something's going to have to change, but until this happens, expect your wallets to continue crying at the pain of buying anime.


...

Aren't you the one who said you couldn't wait for Bandai to go under? And you think anime shouldn't be licensed anymore? What kind of anime fan are you? Are you even an anime fan? Cause if you are, why wouldn't you want it licensed? Why wouldn't you want it released?


I do not think that was what PetrifiedJello was saying. Along with your reasons (and more) for sales declining, unreasonable licensing prices are not helping the issue. Some shows are priced to a point that R1 companies cannot make money bringing there here. The problems are not just one issue but many issues. Couple with the fact (even though anime prices have gotten cheaper) anime is still an expensive media compared to US shows. As they say though, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some people will pay more for things they enjoy.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 12:58 am Reply with quote
Almaz wrote:
Dark Elf Warrior wrote:
Quote:
Licensing is killing this industry. The costs are getting higher while sales are getting lower. Something's going to have to change, but until this happens, expect your wallets to continue crying at the pain of buying anime.
... Aren't you the one who said you couldn't wait for Bandai to go under? And you think anime shouldn't be licensed anymore? ...
I do not think that was what PetrifiedJello was saying.


I read it the same way ... Petrifiedjello is claiming that the license fees demanded in Tokyo are unrealistic, not saying that the US companies are wrong to license the anime.

I'd be happy to hear what the source of information for that is ... my impression was less that Tokyo is jacking up the license fees and more that it is getting harder and harder for R1 distributors to afford the fixed cost represented by the license fees, because of the drop in sales volume.

If there is a source that confirms that Tokyo is jacking up license fees at the same time that the US anime market has lost around half of its volume since 2003 ... more than half in real terms, since a 2003 dollar could buy more than a 2010 dollar ... that would be very interesting.
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LordRedhand



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 1472
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 1:53 am Reply with quote
Yeah PJ is just anti licensing without any facts to back up what he says (less information based world, more fact free world.) If you check on ANN (I think it's either one of the ANN Casts or convention panels) Industry Reps when asked have said that licensing costs have gone down (Competition matching value of product, i.e. some people were motivated in keeping the license cost high in an attempt at market share, works if you have stellar titles, not so much the non stellar one.) As well as offering anime in packages (Which according to conventional anime fan wisdom is a good thing, until you complain about how they license "less than stellar" series but apparently they want to have their cake and eat it to.)

I'd also encourage you to check out PJ's "dream plan" if you will. It would require the same amount of licensing and contracting to make it work, so I lol when he gets on about licensing costs when it's reasonable to assume other variable costs would be higher and can play around with those numbers easier (you have more control over them, less negotiation involved with another person often.) As that is what it boils down to, anime has value greater than 0, and those who have it are going to ask for a number greater than 0 and because of how modern anime fandom works it has to be all parts of the license (Music, voice work, animations, so on) as they tend to complain when one or more of those components (to which I say watch What's Up Tiger Lily? it is a really good film and I feel how some anime fans feel about what a dub does to the original Japanese work.) for Reference you can check reactions to Shin-chan or older DBZ, invariably though that does raise the cost so f you want to start ahem "hacking away" at the licensing costs what do you want to take away?
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 3:06 am Reply with quote
Justin: "Bad Lieutenant: Port of Call New Orleans"

Saw the original?

Zac: RE: Hetalia comments

But how does it compare to Histeria? Wink
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jr240483



Joined: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 4369
Location: New York City,New York,USA
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:44 am Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:

Also, I'm thankful that I wasn't the only one who thought the Zero no Tsukaima dub was awful. Hearing it brought up twice in the show just brought a smile to my face.


Well I liked it. Same with Nanoha and Nanoha A's.

Sure the dub for zero no tsukaima is no masterpiece like what Bang Zoom did with the dub version for the Card Captor Sakura Movie, but it was solid enough. And i definately liked Nanoha & A's , however the only thing i had for both of them is that geneon used newbies for the series which meant they werent serious with them.

PetrifiedJello wrote:


I didn't know there was an issue over the dubbing of Nanoha and Familiar of Zero. I still don't know the gist (nor do I want to, so save the typing on this) but found it weird such past events are still being thought of as an issue. I liked the dubs of both, so no complaints here.


I agree. However from what I heard from the podcast on how bad they were even though i had no problems with them, it sounded that their might be a redub which I doubt it'll happen. But if the redubs are like a preview for a future release for Nanoha Strikers as well as the Movie & season 2 & 3 of Zero no Tsukaima, I'm all for it.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 9:51 am Reply with quote
LordRedhand wrote:
... If you check on ANN (I think it's either one of the ANN Casts or convention panels) Industry Reps when asked have said that licensing costs have gone down ...


Yes, that was my impression.

Licensing is how revenue flows to the content creators. No licensing, no revenue streams, no content - inbetweeners already live on Ramen noodles in sub-efficiency rooms or with the parents, its not like the Japanese anime industry is living high off the hog.

There is no magic wand, just the slow process of building new markets and defending their ability to generate revenue that can flow back to the production houses.
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Dr Grant Swinger



Joined: 10 Sep 2005
Posts: 41
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 11:50 am Reply with quote
Zalis116 wrote:
But ever since the advent of softsubbed fansubs (late 2005) and upscaled "HD"TV-rips (mid-2006), R1-rips have become less and less relevant to subtitle watchers.


That's no doubt true of sub watchers but it's not with dub watchers. A while ago I traced a big surge in my companies bandwidth usage (and we use a lot already) to a compromised server. Some uninvited guests had moved in and setup a torrent tracker with a large amount of R1 DVD rips and the new hybrid rips. (That's where the ripper mates R2 Blu-ray or DVD video to R1 English audio.) They even had a forum going with a lively discussion of various dubs underway.

If sub fans outnumber dub fans (and they do by a large margin) why is so hard to make a profit with dubs? The obvious answer is that while there is no shortage of a demand for dubs there is a lack of willingness to pay for them. Fans chat endlessly about their love and admiration for dub actors but that doesn't seem to extend to paying them a living wage for their work. The "Adventures in Voice Acting" DVD was among the titles being heavily downloaded.

From an R1 point of view DVD rips are worse than fansubs. Fansubs may steal sales from titles that might be licensed in the future but rips steal from titles that already have a substantial amount of money invested in them. Sherman was right to bring up rips as a major problem.
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maaya



Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 976
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 11:55 am Reply with quote
You should continue watching Hetalia Very Happy Zac is right when he says that this kind of content is just extremely rare for animes and anything that comes out of Japan (imho it is no coincidence that the author has lived or is living abroad).

There are so many countries portrayed which many Japanese (and not only them) have never even heard of Wink And even if you know the countries you don't know the stereotypes or history of all of them.

And what is very refreshing about Hetalia is the self-irony. It is so extremely rare for a Japanese person to make fun of Japan/Japanese - and eventhough somebody said that the anime is a lot nicer than the manga, it is still so much more than you will find in any other anime or show/book/etc.

Hetalia is also a lot of fun to watch with many people, from many different countries. I know that Italians can get very angry when watching it Very Happy
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