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NEWS: Kodomo no Jikan Anime's Return Announced


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chicogrande



Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 190
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:37 pm Reply with quote
hissatsu01 wrote:

Disclaimer: I don't like KnJ. Any effort at actual storytelling is drowned out by the utterly transparent, pandering fanservice.


I agree with this assessment. I am no prude. I like "Sky Girls" and similar shows. I am currently getting into "To Aru Kagaku no Railgun." But, Kojika is the exception. It's like Nabokov's "Lolita" gone bad. The character of Rin Kokonoe may be "a vulnerable girl...as a result of a tragedy in her past," but the story, it can be argued, milks the sexual tension in grand Otaku fashion. You are reminded that there is a deeper story, but only after you've gone through half a box of tissues (and it's not for tears).
It reminds me of "Chocotto Sister" where the story "centers around a Christmas wish made by Haruma Kawagoe after his mother had suffered a miscarriage, followed by an operation which prevented her from having any more children. Several years later, when Haruma is a college student, a woman on a flying motorbike claiming to be Santa Claus delivers his wish, a younger sister." Heartwarming, yes? Yet, it takes very little time for the little sister to be center of Otaku little-sister fetish merchandising.
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Zac
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Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 3:05 pm Reply with quote
jenthehen wrote:

**Edited to add: I have also always felt that loli is just SO different from child pornography / the sexualization of actual children. Loli characters don't even LOOK like real human children. At all. It's just such a different animal that I can't imagine it making anyone start seeing real children in a sexual way.


This argument never made any sense to me.

"It's a touching story about the psychological damage that children can go through and a serious exploration of the outward behavior real kids exhibit every day as a result of a broken home!"

"They don't even look like real kids! They're not human analogues! There's no way anyone would mistake these for human beings!"

So... it's a serious dramatic story about gritty, dark human feelings played out by alien blobs that in no way resemble humans? What?
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rowsdower



Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 83
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 3:53 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:

So... it's a serious dramatic story about gritty, dark human feelings played out by alien blobs that in no way resemble humans? What?


Perhaps I'm misreading this, but hopefully you aren't implying that it's impossible to be extremely abstract and still tell a very raw, very human story even if all the characters are weird blobs? Because 2008's wonderful series "Kaiba" did just that. It took a TON of visual cues from Tezuka at his most stylized, and the end result is a cast of colorful, vaguely humanoid literal "alien blobs" delivering a story about love, loss, and the role of memory and denial in the human mind. Here is a particularly stirring moment from the climax of the 3rd episode which illustrates the intentionally jarring clash between style and content quite well. Spoiler-haters may want to turn the other way.

Don't take this as a defense of "Kodomo no Jikan", though. I'm just defending the use of colorful abstract forms in telling a serious story. I know a lot of people seem to claim that KnJ has an OMG ULTRA DEEP AND MEANINGFUL story beneath the most outrageously transparent lolicon pandering in the history of anything ever, but why should I bother giving it a shot when that surface repulses me so much? I can get depth elsewhere without having to suffer through things I loathe.

In fact, if depth and meaning were the ultimate goal of KnJ as some seem to be suggesting, why is some of its creepiness presented as "LOL HI-LARIOUS!" Is it supposed to be a deeply human examination of damaged characters or a raunchy comedy? Those two tastes go together like peanut butter and battery acid.
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Zac
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 4:04 pm Reply with quote
rowsdower wrote:

Perhaps I'm misreading this, but hopefully you aren't implying that it's impossible to be extremely abstract and still tell a very raw, very human story even if all the characters are weird blobs? Because 2008's wonderful series "Kaiba" did just that. It took a TON of visual cues from Tezuka at his most stylized, and the end result is a cast of colorful, vaguely humanoid literal "alien blobs" delivering a story about love, loss, and the role of memory and denial in the human mind. Here is a particularly stirring moment from the climax of the 3rd episode which illustrates the intentionally jarring clash between style and content quite well. Spoiler-haters may want to turn the other way.


Oh, no, don't get me wrong - I'm not dismissing the notion of visually abstract characters that serve as allegory. That's totally valid and has been a really effective and beautifully artistic way to tell some really deeply emotional and human stories.

I'm saying the characters in Kodomo no Jikan aren't abstractions to the point where they don't serve as obvious human analogues. It's like saying the "teens" on 90210, who are obviously being played by 20-somethings, are therefore not representative of real human teenagers and are abstractions to the point where no way could you possibly be attracted to real teenagers if you're spankin' it to the CW on Monday nights.
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rowsdower



Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 83
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 4:25 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:

Oh, no, don't get me wrong - I'm not dismissing the notion of visually abstract characters that serve as allegory. That's totally valid and has been a really effective and beautifully artistic way to tell some really deeply emotional and human stories.

I'm saying the characters in Kodomo no Jikan aren't abstractions to the point where they don't serve as obvious human analogues. It's like saying the "teens" on 90210, who are obviously being played by 20-somethings, are therefore not representative of real human teenagers and are abstractions to the point where no way could you possibly be attracted to real teenagers if you're spankin' it to the CW on Monday nights.


That's what I figured, but since abstract art and allegory are two of my passions in media, I wanted to speak up just in case.

I'm definitely on the side that's really confused by the whole "just because I spank it to lolis doesn't mean I spank it to real kids!" thing. This is largely because whatever features I personally find appealing in fictional characters I also find attractive in actual human beings. Like men with respectable sideburns which don't cross the dangerous line into the full-fledged 19th century President mutton chop range. Mmm. I'm looking at you, Walter von Schenkopp from LOGH.

I just can't comprehend the claims of taste segregation. Maybe this has something to do with that whole "2D vs 3D" thing so many otaku are yelling about? Whatever it is, it is wholly beyond my realm of understanding.
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jenthehen



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 4:46 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
jenthehen wrote:

**Edited to add: I have also always felt that loli is just SO different from child pornography / the sexualization of actual children. Loli characters don't even LOOK like real human children. At all. It's just such a different animal that I can't imagine it making anyone start seeing real children in a sexual way.


This argument never made any sense to me.

"It's a touching story about the psychological damage that children can go through and a serious exploration of the outward behavior real kids exhibit every day as a result of a broken home!"

"They don't even look like real kids! They're not human analogues! There's no way anyone would mistake these for human beings!"

So... it's a serious dramatic story about gritty, dark human feelings played out by alien blobs that in no way resemble humans? What?


I think you're looking at it primarily from the angle of human emotional/mental characteristics, though. Yes, the "loli" characters are representing real children, and in the case of KnJ, the story and the children/young teens' actions, while exaggerated, are at least believable/realistic on some level.

I'm referring purely to loli characters' physical attributes. I'm saying that someone could be sexually aroused by Rin Kokonoe due to the sexual way in which she is sometimes presented, but not at all (in any way shape or form) be attracted to actual children in that way. She does NOT really look like an actual child of her age. Yes, she still looks human, but honestly ... when I see the lolicon in KnJ, the kids sort of look like a cross between teens/adults/children ... cartoons. I mean, the exaggeration of the hair, eyes, clothing, etc ... it's so DIFFERENT than actual children. What comes across as sexy when Rin does it would be ridiculous or disturbing from an actual child. And the ONLY reason for the "sexiness" in KnJ is as fanservice for loli fans.

Basically, what I'm saying is that you can be a diehard lolicon and have 0 interest in real children. Loli fan =/= pedophile.

I'm not saying that a loli fan is never a pedophile, though - I'm sure that those people exist.
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Swissman



Joined: 11 May 2006
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Location: Switzerland
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 6:06 pm Reply with quote
jenthehen wrote:
And the ONLY reason for the "sexiness" in KnJ is as fanservice for loli fans.

It's meant to be cute and is mostly understood as cute by japanese audiences, women and men. I realized that once again when I was in Japan last month, talking with japanese fans and non-fans of manga at TAF and elswhere.

Kodomo no Jikan is clearly a franchise which is not fitted for western audiences, period. Too much western a/m fans focus on what they perceive as immoral and what should be outright banned or ignored in sake of the story's qualities instead of setting this so-called "fanservice" in the context of japanese marketing strategies and considering how japanese audiences perceive and react to "fanservice".
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 6:13 pm Reply with quote
Swissman wrote:

It's meant to be cute and is mostly understood as cute by japanese audiences, women and men. I realized that once again when I was in Japan last month, talking with japanese fans and non-fans of manga at TAF and elswhere.


This is the opposite of my experiences talking to Japanese natives about this sort of material and not at all what my friends who live there have told me. It's considered creepy stuff for creeps by the majority of non-otaku there; at least, that's what I've been told overwhelmingly by the people I know.

It's all anecdotal anyway; I can't say for certain any more than you can.

It is, however, a very very easy justification for this sort of thing to just say "oh well the Japanese are all totally cool with it, you westerners just don't get it". In my estimation, no they're not and yes we do. But your anecdotal evidence disagrees with mine, so really this is kind of moot.
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Swissman



Joined: 11 May 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 6:39 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Swissman wrote:

It's meant to be cute and is mostly understood as cute by japanese audiences, women and men. I realized that once again when I was in Japan last month, talking with japanese fans and non-fans of manga at TAF and elswhere.


This is the opposite of my experiences talking to Japanese natives about this sort of material and not at all what my friends who live there have told me. It's considered creepy stuff for creeps by the majority of non-otaku there; at least, that's what I've been told overwhelmingly by the people I know.

It's all anecdotal anyway; I can't say for certain any more than you can.

I won't deny that you have met people which think of a premise like KnJ as creepy, you have met your people, I have mine. In such cases we tend to remember the people which have the same reactions and opinions as we do more easily, right? ;)

Quote:
It is, however, a very very easy justification for this sort of thing to just say "oh well the Japanese are all totally cool with it, you westerners just don't get it". In my estimation, no they're not and yes we do. But your anecdotal evidence disagrees with mine, so really this is kind of moot.

Just a practical thought: If they really had a problem with manga like KnJ, then such manga would not be promoted in general bookstores like Kinokuniya.

I do estimate that we as westeners don't really "get" manga like KnJ. We may understand the story and some of us are offended (or not) by what we perceive as immoral or blatant "fanservice", but that alone does not make us "get" such manga and anime like the japanese do.
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Myaow



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 1068
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 6:59 pm Reply with quote
Swissman wrote:
I do estimate that we as westeners don't really "get" manga like KnJ. We may understand the story and some of us are offended (or not) by what we perceive as immoral or blatant "fanservice", but that alone does not make us "get" such manga and anime like the japanese do.


There's just something in the air over there that makes them ~*~understand~*~ stories that discuss the messes that child abuse can cause while sexualizing the abused character and presenting her situation as a striptease for the audience. Must be the air.
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Swissman



Joined: 11 May 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 7:16 pm Reply with quote
Myaow wrote:
Swissman wrote:
I do estimate that we as westeners don't really "get" manga like KnJ. We may understand the story and some of us are offended (or not) by what we perceive as immoral or blatant "fanservice", but that alone does not make us "get" such manga and anime like the japanese do.


There's just something in the air over there that makes them ~*~understand~*~ stories that discuss the messes that child abuse can cause while sexualizing the abused character and presenting her situation as a striptease for the audience. Must be the air.

Ah, the sarcasm and ignorance of youth never ceases to amaze me.
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Zac
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 7:33 pm Reply with quote
Swissman wrote:

Ah, the sarcasm and ignorance of youth never ceases to amaze me.


Dude, that is exactly what happens in that show. It isn't ALL that happens, but it's a major selling point.

This is like someone saying "there sure are a lot of explosions in Transformers" and you saying "pish tosh, the ignorance of youth! You simply do not understand!"

That's not a defense and doesn't actually say anything of substance. Someone accurately describes what happens frequently in the show and you instead suggest that they're ignorant, and don't understand the show's deep true meaning. Which you don't actually deign to enlighten us with; instead you simply suggest the vague maybe-existence of this amazing hidden reservoir of serious intellectual and emotional value inherent in the series, one so vast it makes even basic descriptions of what is happening on the page completely invalid and based in thudding ignorance.

Which is delusional.

edit: wait, were you the guy who vehemently defended Kodomo no Jikan as a staggering work of mindblowing genius and then turned out to have written a whole bunch of essays angrily denouncing age of consent laws?


edit 2: oh, that was the other guy.
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jenthehen



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 835
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 7:50 pm Reply with quote
No no ... the fanservice cannot possibly be meant to be "cute" ... K-On is "cute" ... Strawberry Marshmallow is "cute" ... even that weird Kindergarten show recently is meant to be "cute" ... KnJ is something else. And even though I LOVE the series, I can admit that.

A 9 year old talking about spoiler[a teaching "cumming" inside her or performing oral sex on her ... or using little visual tricks to make it look like she is giving a blow job or pinching her own nipples ... yeah ]...not "cute" ... it's blatantly sexual fanservice. And that's fine - if it bothers you or disgusts you, then don't watch/read it.

I just like to let people know that there IS more to the story than that. It is a far cry from ... I don't know ... what's that doujin ... ComicLO or something? Yeah. The fanservice can either be titillating or appropriately shocking (or both) - to some extent it DOES serve a purpose and enhances the story, but some of it is obviously fan-pandering.

Again, I love it and I read the new chapter every month, so don't get me wrong!
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RestLessone



Joined: 02 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:02 pm Reply with quote
jenthehen wrote:
No no ... the fanservice cannot possibly be meant to be "cute" ... K-On is "cute" ... Strawberry Marshmallow is "cute" ... even that weird Kindergarten show recently is meant to be "cute" ... KnJ is something else. And even though I LOVE the series, I can admit that.

A 9 year old talking about spoiler[a teaching "cumming" inside her or performing oral sex on her ... or using little visual tricks to make it look like she is giving a blow job or pinching her own nipples ... yeah ]...not "cute" ... it's blatantly sexual fanservice. And that's fine - if it bothers you or disgusts you, then don't watch/read it.

I just like to let people know that there IS more to the story than that. It is a far cry from ... I don't know ... what's that doujin ... ComicLO or something? Yeah. The fanservice can either be titillating or appropriately shocking (or both) - to some extent it DOES serve a purpose and enhances the story, but some of it is obviously fan-pandering.

Again, I love it and I read the new chapter every month, so don't get me wrong!

I think that, at the end of the day, this is how the series should be treated; you're able to look at both sides. People can accept that, behind the fanservice, it has a story, but fans also need to admit that some aspects are there for a specific crowd and aren't healthy; that there are issues with the series as far as how teachers respond and such. I think there needs to be some sort of mutual understanding; I understand people like the story elements, but others should understand that the fanservice has an exploitative feel and that certain story/art elements are a turn-off.

My thoughts, anyway. Oh, and I dearly hope that that type of fanservice isn't considered the norm in Japan. Those "visual tricks" mentioned above...and finding it cute when young children perform them? I'm inclined to think it's more normal within the "otaku" crowd (not necessarily accepted, either), but anyone else (parents especially) shudder at the idea.

I do not want to pick up a volume of Yotsuba&! and find that.
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jenthehen



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:07 pm Reply with quote
RestlessOne wrote:
jenthehen wrote:
No no ... the fanservice cannot possibly be meant to be "cute" ... K-On is "cute" ... Strawberry Marshmallow is "cute" ... even that weird Kindergarten show recently is meant to be "cute" ... KnJ is something else. And even though I LOVE the series, I can admit that.

A 9 year old talking about spoiler[a teaching "cumming" inside her or performing oral sex on her ... or using little visual tricks to make it look like she is giving a blow job or pinching her own nipples ... yeah ]...not "cute" ... it's blatantly sexual fanservice. And that's fine - if it bothers you or disgusts you, then don't watch/read it.

I just like to let people know that there IS more to the story than that. It is a far cry from ... I don't know ... what's that doujin ... ComicLO or something? Yeah. The fanservice can either be titillating or appropriately shocking (or both) - to some extent it DOES serve a purpose and enhances the story, but some of it is obviously fan-pandering.

Again, I love it and I read the new chapter every month, so don't get me wrong!

I think that, at the end of the day, this is how the series should be treated; you're able to look at both sides. People can accept that, behind the fanservice, it has a story, but fans also need to admit that some aspects are there for a specific crowd and aren't healthy; that there are issues with the series as far as how teachers respond and such. I think there needs to be some sort of mutual understanding; I understand people like the story elements, but others should understand that the fanservice has an exploitative feel and that certain story/art elements are a turn-off.

My thoughts, anyway. Oh, and I dearly hope that that type of fanservice isn't considered the norm in Japan. Those "visual tricks" mentioned above...and finding it cute when young children perform them? I'm inclined to think it's more normal within the "otaku" crowd (not necessarily accepted, either), but anyone else (parents especially) shudder at the idea.

I do not want to pick up a volume of Yotsuba&! and find that.


I agree with you (except I obviously like KnJ!) I wonder if the author has her own kids? I tried to look it up but didn't find anything.
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