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Shelf Life - Apples and Oranges


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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 3782
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:53 pm Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
...it shouldn't be dumped in with the likes of Strike Witches, Popotan, etc.

Note: if the character is under the age of 13, it's going to be considered lolicon regardless of what the character says or does. Just appearing instantly guarantees the label.

If Rob Bricken left Astro Toy because the love just wasn't there, just how long is it going to be before others start to feel the same way regarding Shelf Life with titles featuring young girls?

I can almost see the review forthcoming for the second season of Gunslinger Girls, especially when Triela's past is finally revealed. Never mind the emotional impact, its entire purpose is to pander to lolicons.

I didn't like Appleseed either. There wasn't any lolicon in it.
that's not true, as the whole thing was just poorly done

Haven't seen Initial D and never going to. I've seen the character designs, so I'll pass on this one.

[insert emoticon sighing here]
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rinmackie



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 1040
Location: in a van! down by the river!
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:14 pm Reply with quote
I wish could say I didn't see this coming but .....

As soon as I saw Gunslinger Girl mentioned in the promo, I thought, surely Erin will not try to equate this to lolicon, will she? And then I read the review. Damn, I knew it! WTF?! Gunslinger Girl? Yes, the little girls as assassins are creepy, but loli? No way!
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Ojamajo LimePie



Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 762
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:36 pm Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:
Megiddo wrote:
...it shouldn't be dumped in with the likes of Strike Witches, Popotan, etc.

Note: if the character is under the age of 13, it's going to be considered lolicon regardless of what the character says or does. Just appearing instantly guarantees the label.


I wonder if Erin considers Snow Fairy Sugar a lolicon series, too? Rolling Eyes Seriously, the only thing I find creepy here is her obsession with labelling stuff lolicon. She's the one who is sexualizing the series.
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John Casey



Joined: 31 May 2009
Posts: 1853
Location: In My Angry Center
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:02 pm Reply with quote
Can I get my initial question answered now?
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machetecat



Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 396
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:11 pm Reply with quote
John Casey wrote:
All this talk of Gunslinger Girl reminded me... Has anyone in here actually read the book Lolita?

:/ Exactly. Lolita is over 9000 different kinds of awkward and creepy. Yet if it lost it's single center point, it'd lose all 9000 of those psychological commentaries, and would effectively be a trash novel afterwards.
I can say that not only have I read Lolita, I saw the old black-and-white movie adaptation. (Film and literature class)

I was able to sit through the movie because the film didn't go into the guy's inner monologue, but the book... I started skimming through to the end when I was about halfway through. I was both seeing red and resisting the urge to throw up. That was a sick, sick man. He may not have done anything to her, but that book did NOT need to take place in his head. *shivers*

That's not to say I'm against loli shows. I love cute for cute's sake. I thoroughly enjoy watching the non-super-pervy shows just so I can squeal at the cuteness... but dammit, I really don't want to know what some people are thinking about when they're watching Lucky Star, Hanamaru or whatever.

*back on topic* I have Gunslinger girl... I should watch it sometime. Anime hyper
Initial D is far too ugly for me to give it a chance, not to mention I hate racing and racing shows anyway.
Appleseed... I agree on how the movie's effects aged it really quick, but I did enjoy the plot. The girl and Riarious's (I KNOW I misspelled that) story kept me interested 'till the end.


Last edited by machetecat on Mon May 24, 2010 9:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Crisha
Moderator


Joined: 21 Apr 2010
Posts: 4290
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:14 pm Reply with quote
Dakaran wrote:
Gunslinger is an excellent piece of anime. Again, a review who feels the need to protects itself from public's opinions and the bangwagon of the cases put on the spotlight by the law. I won't read anymore reviews from ANN you guys if you keep that attitude and don't make true reviews. This is a disgrace to reviewers when you are biased in opinions and your review just shows it from the start. The worst is you share many anime I've got but can't neutraly describe Gunslinger.

/disappointed

-Dak


Hey, take a look at this, Dakaran:

Quote:
As a piece of entertainment, Gunslinger Girl achieves exactly what it sets out to do. It attempts to be slightly-to-very creepy, and it is. The viewer is supposed to think, "this is so wrong," and Gunslinger Girl is very effective in eliciting that reaction. In that respect, it's a winner.

Unfortunately, Shelf Life ratings are based on my opinions.

Unfortunately, Shelf Life ratings are based on my opinions.

Unfortunately, Shelf Life ratings are based on my opinions.

UNFORTUNATELY, SHELF LIFE RATINGS ARE BASED ON MY OPINIONS.


I've only been here a month, and I've already gotten the point of these articles. There is going to be a bias. Shocking, I know. Instead of complaining about a given quality on the article that's not going to change, you could just state on why you disagree with what's being said. That way, when people come in to read the threads, they can get more variety of opinions. Variety is good, it helps people decide if they'd like the series or not.

Besides, reviews are subjective anyways. Want a neutral review? Fine, show us how it's done. If you disagree with what Erin is saying, how about you actually give a review on why the series is shelf-worthy instead of making pointless complaints.
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bglassbrook



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 1243
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:34 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
I enjoy the science fiction aspect of this show. But as long as you're rebuilding little girls as super assassins, why not remove their tear ducts?

Well, the point is that nobody would suspect these little girls of being assassins. Therefore, wouldn't it be counterproductive to eliminate the crying/lost little girl approach, let along potentially breaking the illusion, by removing their tear ducts?
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rinmackie



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 1040
Location: in a van! down by the river!
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:43 pm Reply with quote
Well, there's subjective review and then there's ... just looking for stuff.

Strike Witches? Definitely loli. Popotan? yep. Dance in the Vampire Bund? A vampire story with some loli elements in it. And I don't even have to have actually seen these shows to know whether they're truly loli or not. Gunslinger Girl is a disturbing, though-provoking series but it is NOT LOLI! Those girls are not sexualized and if anyone thinks of them that way, it's in their head, not the show.

I'm sure Erin would probably consider some of the old Shirley Temple movies loli because Shirley flashed her panties a few times. And of course, she was cute and interacted with older men.
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wandering-dreamer



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 1733
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:57 pm Reply with quote
I'm quite amused at how it seems that everyone in the A:TLA fandom either knows or at least recognizes the people who wrote/drew the Zuko preview comic (although I didn't realize it was by the same artist as Yōkaiden, didn't like that one but I did really like the webcomic she was working on before).
And thanks for the screemshot of the Intial D character designs. Wow, just, WOW. I downloaded a free episode off of itunes (not sure which season, think it was 4) and would've been really surprised if I hadn't seen that screenshot.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3489
Location: Back stateside
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:16 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, I have to agree with the critics for once. I was underwhelmed by the first season of Gunslinger Girl due to the lack of actual plot plus way too many characters to develop more than one or two fully in just 13 episodes. But lolicon? I know the first draft of the original manga swung a little that way, but by the time it got to the anime, any sexualization of the girls had long since vanished. Perhaps the second season and the OVA were different, but I think you're overreacting dubbing this lolicon. It's got problems, but that's not one of them.

That said... *sigh* I've been coming up empty on your reviews lately, either nothing seems to be really intriguing me or I'm already watching it streamed. What've you got on your plate for the future?
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23667
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:36 pm Reply with quote
I really love Gunslinger Girl. One of the things that interested me was the difference in the attitudes of the handlers towards the girls and the different dynamic between the pairs. Some handlers had a very cold, business-like attitude - viewing their Girl as basically a tool, nothing else. Some were appalled by the program, but tried to do their best with the situation; also trying their best not to be on any kind of friendly terms with the Girl (and usually failing). Some had very much a big brother/little sister dynamic. And, of course, the OP kicks all sorts of ass.
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Gewürtztraminer



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 1028
Location: Texas - Its like whole other country.
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:40 pm Reply with quote
Caught this originally on IFC.

Quote:
After season one, I still can't tell you much about Triela or Henreitta's personalities. Their past memories are wiped, and their current memories get re-wiped periodically, so there isn't much to go on. Henreitta is, uh… really nice?


"I've only killed four people this month, but last month I killed at least ten..... I just want to be useful" Henreitta and all of the other girls are looking for validation, fearful that their new lives will be taken from them.

I don't think this is lolicon, as much as full on moe. The episode that my quote came from was the Prince of Pasta #8. Olga expresses the desire to make them all ballerinas. Out of all the stuff that I believe gets the moe label falsely, you can not deny its application here.

Really nothing sexualized at all except in the fairly tame minds of the girls.... or the viewer's imagination. (leaving season 2 and Triela out of the discussion for now)

That being said, it is obvious that the whole gist of the series was to get you wanting to nurture and protect these quasi young "girls" who are in such a mind blowingly bad situation, to get you upset at the handlers that were unfeeling towards their plight, ect.

Creepy, oh yes. But I think it works in the series favor. Throw in the Del Gados opening, and I was hooked.
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erinfinnegan
ANN Columnist


Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 598
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:43 pm Reply with quote
John Casey wrote:
Can I get my initial question answered now?
machetecat wrote:
I saw the old black-and-white movie adaptation.

Weirdly, I saw the second half of the black-and-white version and the second half of the more recent color remake. Thanks, cable television!

I have yet to read the book.

Penguin_Factory wrote:
I was also annoyed that the girls didn't really act like children, which took all the drama out of the story. Every interesting question brought up by the scenario- how do you get someone that young to kill people? What sort of effect would that have on them mentally? How would it effect the adults responsible?- was explored at an extremely superficial level or simply glossed over.

Battle Angel Alita Last Order has some stuff about child soldiers and how wrong it is to make kids kill.

I mean, unfortunately if you consider somewhere like Somalia, it happens in real life.

GWOtaku wrote:
That said, isn't it inaccurate to associate the series with lolicon when, as you say, there's nothing sexual about it? My understanding was that this was an essential component of lolicon...

Not all lolicon has sexual content. That's part of the whole point of lolicon manga... but I'm going to have to talk to an expert about this.

rinmackie wrote:
Gunslinger Girl is a disturbing, though-provoking series but it is NOT LOLI! Those girls are not sexualized and if anyone thinks of them that way, it's in their head, not the show.

I am somewhat surprised by a lack of a standard definition of lolicon. I mean, I shouldn't be surprised, but I am.

I will consult some sources and get back to you all on this one.

rinmackie wrote:
I'm sure Erin would probably consider some of the old Shirley Temple movies loli because Shirley flashed her panties a few times. And of course, she was cute and interacted with older men.

Well, no, because Shirley Temple movies were not made for the consumption of the lolicon audience. The intended audience is always really important in my reading of a film (or TV series).

Dakaran wrote:
I won't read anymore reviews from ANN you guys if you keep that attitude and don't make true reviews. This is a disgrace to reviewers when you are biased in opinions and your review just shows it from the start.

Fortunately there is at least one new reviewer who might share your tastes.

Dakaran wrote:
The worst is you share many anime I've got but can't neutraly describe Gunslinger.

The what now? Those aren't pictures of my shelves.

PetrifiedJello wrote:
Note: if the character is under the age of 13, it's going to be considered lolicon regardless of what the character says or does. Just appearing instantly guarantees the label.

I've watched plenty of shows starring little girls that I wouldn't consider lolicon, like Yumeiro Pâtissière, Gakuen Alice, Kodocha (one of my all time favorite anime series), and Chibi Maruko-chan (ok, so I've only seen a couple episodes raw).

Ojamajo LimePie wrote:
I wonder if Erin considers Snow Fairy Sugar a lolicon series, too? Rolling Eyes

You can read my review and find out.
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Agent355



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 5113
Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready...
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:56 pm Reply with quote
I can't wait to read that Zuko manga-ish American produced sequential art book!* I'm a huge Avatar fangirl, and Nina Matsumoto rocks the house with Yokaiden (just read the second volume: absolutely adorable!)

I also love the Gunslinger Girl manga, and I agree that while it's supposed to make everyone feel uncomfortable, it's not because the girls are sexualized in any direct way. In fact, it's hinted that Henrietta's uterus was damaged and removed because of the abuse she suffered before her transformation into a mini!Major-like cyber assasins, not the transformation itself.

It does rub me the wrong way that there are no little boys being turned into assasins by the government...that would take the fire out of any loli arguments, imho.

I also happen to agree that the anime adaptation of GG is beautifully animated, slow-paced, and incredibly boring, but that's just me.

*is there any non controvercial way to describe a Japanese-styled American comic these days? Didn't think so *rolls eyes*
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John Casey



Joined: 31 May 2009
Posts: 1853
Location: In My Angry Center
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:09 pm Reply with quote
Uh...Erin. :/ I meant my initial question as in....my initial question. As in, the very first question...in the very first post of this thread. Anime catgrin + sweatdrop
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