Forum - View topicANNCast - North by Northrop
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
|
|||||||||
|
Wow Zac. You're good at doing the promo.
Happy birthday Justin. Russel Brand is a motorist. This fact is burned onto my very soul from seeing that commercial so many times. Yeah, I hear that Rainbow is at least something of a disappointing. I think Justin's comments are the first positive response I've hear. I'm totally on board with them shutting down these big manga scan aggregators. Honestly it annoys me how quick people are to forgive Crunchyroll. Especially since they didn't really go legit out of any kind of moral choice. They just finally reached a point where their theft allowed them to transition to a legit service. That's just [expletive] stupid. It's a shame too because I would absolutely love it if more cons charged for the events if it was instead of charging just to get in. I don't go to cons because I don't want to pay for a fairly expensive ticket just to go in and poke around a bit. If I could do that then maybe I'd decide to pay to check out an event or two. Question: Can we put Northrop's daughter in charge of something in the anime or movie industry? It seems like a step in the right direction. I'll start reading OEL manga when they stop calling it OEL manga. To me, that would be the first sign that they're not just sort of regurgitating what they've seen in manga and maybe offering something of their own. There's nothing wrong with being manga inspired. There is a ton of good stuff that's clearly somewhat manga inspired published by other companies. It seems like the stuff being put out there by manga companies is completely uninspired though.
Yeah, totally. Making money by doing nothing but providing illegal access to somebody else product and taking away sales from the legitimate creators and distributors is totally equivalent to profiting off actually creating reviews while not actually making this stuff available and taking away sales. That statement in no way sets a new standard for ridiculous and tenuous criticisms of ANN. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
|
|||||||||
Your cynical remark aside, you're completely missing the point. They used the fan sub site. When someone comes along and explains to me how this is any different than the users hitting manga sites everyone wants shut down, I'll concede this argument. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
|
|||||||||
I didn't miss your point. I observed that your point was stupid and now you're back pedaling and changing your criticism. A minute ago you we're trying to equate ANN to these manga sites on some tenuous basis that ANN kind of some times sort of profits thanks to fansubs. Now you're just calling them hypocrites for using fansubs (which supposedly makes them as bad as the people using these manga sites). Well the obvious answer to this is that they're not criticizing people for using scans and fansubs. They're criticizing people for whining about the sites getting shut down. That's entirely different. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
kawaiibunny3
 Posts: 534 Location: Houston, Texas |
|
|||||||||
|
Happy Birthday Justin!
wow, poor AX attendees, hope by next year the price is lowered :/ I mean I'd always hope to go to Anime Expo one day in my life, but even if I got a really good paying job or won a lottery, I'd still probably pass and go to another convention. Or even worse, what if in some weird off-chance AX actually makes alot more profit, I wonder if other more popular cons will follow their example? and for scanlation sites I-......no, never mind, everything that I'd want to say has already been said. And thanks again to Northrop Davis for coming, he ended up being a much more interesting and entertaining guest than I had initially thought 
|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
agila61
 Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
|
|||||||||
Thanks for basing your argument on a falsehood rather than for trying to base on a value statement, since basing it on a falsehood makes it easier to see that the argument has no grounding. Manga and fansub sites distribute a copy of the work without permission. ANN reviews the work. It is a long established precedent that distributing a copy of a work and writing a review of a work are different and, indeed, there is no requirement to gain permission to write a review. Therefore, when you say there is "absolutely no difference", the claim is false. Since its the premise of your argument, your argument is unfounded. Thanks again, this is much simpler. Note that you could have made a charge of hypocrisy on these grounds if, in the ANNcast, they had made a scathing critique of readers of the scumbag manga viewing sites and viewers of the bloodsucker leech streaming sites. Bad luck for you, then, that they directed their scathing criticism to the scumbag manga viewing sites. While you and I obviously are aware that the scumbag manga viewing sites are trampling on the rights of the original creators to give or withhold permission to copy their work ... a large number of the readers will be deliberately kept in the dark by the operators of the scumbag sites, who try to mislead readers into thinking that what the scumbag sites are doing is legal or ethical. On a side note, I would hope that the ANN reviewers get a copy by leeching a torrent stream, and erase the download in under 24 hours of download. While I am grateful that, for example, their review of Giant Killing was available for use to spread the work about the series when CR acquired the streaming rights ... they shouldn't be going around either breaking the law or giving advertising revenue to the bloodsucker leech streaming sites to do so. Far better would be to datamine the actual stream source from the leech streaming site, report the copyright infringement to the safe harbor video streamer and the rights owner, and then watch the stream on the safe harbor, denying the bloodsucker leech streaming site both the ad revenue from the view and with luck forcing them to repeat their illegal upload to the safe harbor site. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
|
|||||||||
It's not like that. Basically what I did was "Hey, check out how you used these fansub sites as a benefit, so maybe lay off ripping on those defending these sites." I wasn't obvious, but that was sort of the point.
I didn't equate them to the sites at all. I said the actions are no different.
I started out with this, not "just now". And aren't they just as bad? If the entire point of this topic is because people are using these sites which contributes to the site owners, I don't see how their actions aren't different.
And this includes me. I started my conversation out in that other thread of why I see this as a bad mistake. I'm challenging the processes this coalition said it was going to take to have these sites shut down. You'll excuse me if I tend to get a little pissed at this news, then berated because I want to defend the site because, in this country, we're innocent until proven guilty. Running to the FBI with boo hoo complaints of lost profits is circumventing the very laws these publishers and other distributors fought to change through our government. Now, because these changes aren't working, they want to circumvent them? People tend to forget designing websites is my livelihood. Someone had to design these pages. My livelihood has already taken an impact thanks to these law changes, and now I've got to prepare myself when dealing with clients. "Sure, I can build this website for you, but realize the FBI can shut it down at any moment because your users are violating the law." THAT, and that alone, is why I'm against this coalition's position to take down the sites. If this coalition works within the bounds of the law, and the site is then taken down, then I'm all for it and will support their actions. Otherwise, they're only setting a precedence which will have implications down the road. Don't like what a person did on a website? Fear not. The FBI's here to save the day. We web designers already see enough abuse of the DMCA. This just compounds it. I know people will say I'm overreacting, but I'm not. The abusive use of the DMCA has proven my fears are more than justified.
Remember that pawn shop owner example you used? Here it is. Rather disappointing from you, agila61. No matter. I'm done with this topic. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
Shadowrun20XX
 Posts: 1935 Location: Vegas |
|
|||||||||
|
Great podcast. I wonder if anyone else listened until the end? Nice.
It's great that they are finally going after scan sites. Unfortunately those scansites are simple viewing tools for the JPG's. Mere windows to view through. These got more popular through out the 2000's. though it's just stopping the few that are profiting off scans, not stopping scans all together. So WTF? Why not shut down IRC? Why not go after the source of most of this? It's like trying to fight SKYNET from the Terminator series. The users in the world are self aware. It knows what it wants and will do everything in it's power to stop you from taking all they've every known, away. Onemanga already has several other mirrored sites that are in the same format. What then? Spend more money to go after the name change, and have them change again? When I watched Mike's dubs that time forgot part 2, I checked around and every one of those titles have a torrent that is currently active. Even though some from sites that no longer exist. Who pissed off who to make it this way?
Why you would make, what they've made, into a career is beyond me. They are old enough to know that you gotta keep your job and your hobby's separate, or you'll lose yourself real quick. I learned this when I worked at E3 for several years. I found that's it's far more enjoyable to be the consumer, rather than the producer. Oh yeah, and Happy birthday Justin. The big 30! (I'll be 29 in a few months) Now it's your turn to go get married just like your sister. HA! I'm sure your parents are wondering where the kids are at. I hear it all the time, mang. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
penguintruth
 Posts: 8461 Location: Penguinopolis |
|
|||||||||
Uh... yeah. The Death Note movies were a fairly good adaptation, and certainly better than I would expect from Hollywood. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
|
|||||||||
Don't confuse the means and the end. Going after the big manga viewing sites is a means to an end. The end is to open up space to create a legit market. The reason for going after the big manga viewing sites is that they are the place where the big diversion of potential market into illegal networks takes place. You go after the pirates that are putting the most bootleg product in front of the audience and getting between the artists and their potential audience. The second leg of the tripod is increasing the online availability of the big hit manga. The third leg of the tripod is wooing the scanlators over to the legal side with legal crowdsource translation of the kind of manga that cannot be viably printed for market outside of Japan. After taking down the bold and blatant criminal sites, there will be a flurry of people looking for free shit from other sources. As the flock comes to roost on one site, that brings them to attention and allows them to be taken down or disrupted. However, since there is no way to completely eliminate torrent fileshare, an essential part of weaning viewers off the criminal sites is to woo scanlators out of the illegal online social networks and into the new legal online social networks that people are trying to build. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Shadowrun20XX
Posts: 1935 Location: Vegas |
|
|||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 7580 Location: Wales |
|
|||||||||
|
Before I listed to this I have two things to say:
Happy birthday Justin ..and, how'd you get to be a veteran of the anime industry while being younger than me? o_0 |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief
 Posts: 1684 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
|
|||||||||
|
This is not about fansubs. This is not about scanlations. This is not about fans trading scans of hard-to-find manga on IRC, or even fansubs on bittorrent.
These are about commercial enterprises illegally exploiting other people's content for profit, and mostly with content that can be had legally. They may be convenient for you, but the threat they pose is so severe that they threaten the very existence of the manga industry, if left unchecked. If you don't care and just want your free manga fix with little effort on your part, I understand. You are being selfish, but that's all that can really be expected of most people. It's not your job to worry about the big picture. Luckily, your opinion doesn't matter much, and changes nothing. The official publishers should address your desires as a consumer, but that's their prerogative. Personally, my stance on piracy is "always absolute last resort." That's the role I think fansubs and scanlations should play. When things go beyond that -- and the do for the vast majority of people -- there's damage, and if this stuff is your livelihood that damage needs to be addressed. I absolutely respect that. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
|
|||||||||
This current move is publishers, so its the big manga viewing sites that directly host this mass of illegal content. But places like N***** F** are vulnerable to more direct action - they do not host their material, but upload it to sites like Megavideo, Veoh, and MySpace and leech it from there. That means that they can be datamined for their links with the links passed on to the rights holders, who issue C&D letters to the big safe harbor streaming sites, and the streams go away and the leech streamer has to upload them all over again. Its possible to harvest thousands of bootleg upload links in one day's work and see hundreds go away in a couple of days. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
wandering-dreamer
 Posts: 1733 |
|
|||||||||
Agreed, I was wondering if I should grab the holy water when that started.
Same here, since people have said for years that ad-based revenue doesn't usually generate much I assumed that between hosting all the images and all the traffic they got the ads were there to cover that. And I guess the only thing to do is cut back on scanlations for the moment. Really there are only three series I'm attached to right now as far as scans go and one of those is unlicensed (and then another takes about a month to get translated so I'd love to have a legal and faster way to see it). Maybe with Yen Press putting their magazine online other publishers could take a look and see what works/doesn't about however they do it and take inspiration from it?
Actually, Pandora Hearts is one of those three I really follow, and the scanlations didn't really exist before Yen Press got the license. They announced it last April and the anime didn't start until later int the month and I remember at the time of the anime there were only 5/10 chapters out and it certainly wasn't until July/August that the scanlators caught up with the Japanese releases. So yeah, it was more of a coincidence with when the anime started that the scans started coming out, but there were almost no English scanlations when this was announced. I tried a few of TP's OEL manga and didn't like most of them and I found it strange that the stories were so, well, bland. Especially since in this past year I've gotten really into webcomics and, while very few of them are professional quality in both art and story, the 40+ ones I follow are a heck of a lot more engaging. The talent's out there but I think that TP was too concerned with making the stories "manga-like" instead of trusting the authors (and editors) with their own unique visions. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
|
|||||||||
Okay PJ. I'm not going to get into a whole back and forth with you. I've explained why both of your criticisms are baseless and I'm not going to go on about it. I will make one point though: No. The above statement is false. You are saying now: They are hypocrites for using fansubs because this makes them the same as the fans who use these manga sites. You were initially saying: They are hypocrites for using fansubs because this makes them the same as the people who run these manga sites. Just look at your comments:
It's pretty apparent that you're angry that they've criticized people like you and you want to criticize them back. You put out the first thing you could think of and now you are moving the goal posts to try and re-justify your criticism. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group